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le-paul
Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre
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 Posted: Tue May 06, 2014 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| if people at least offered credit to those who helped and werent do boastful and bombastic |
To who? Americans? I think Koreans should be thankful to Korean War veterans and most are. Just like they are thankful to Turkish veterans and have always maintained a good relationship with Turkey.
(tangent)
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For one, yes.
It would be nice if for example, the amount of aid given to the country by yourselves and Japan for example were recognised and accepted with some sembalnce of gratitutde. It isnt necessarily possible to prove one way or the t'other how people feel I suppose, its only our perceptions. I hold to mine however, Ill use what I can see.
An example of this is stating 'a miracle happened' on the han river with pure Korean dillegence. This arguably may be streching the facts a little and adding to misinformation/nationalism.
Further, it could be argued that popular feeling toward the Japnese is not always positive. Without doing a survey however, I cannot prove this. I do know that Japan is the second biggest contributor to aid in South Korea after the USA since the 1950s. I can only specualte the the majority of people do not want US army bases here or dislike Japan becasue of comfort women and Dokdo - this is despite the positive contributions.
Again, I cant prove this.
Anyway, you are correct in saying it is a philosophical debate. |
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Mr. BlackCat
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE
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| Posted: Tue May 06, 2014 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
If they are going to boast about themselves and praise their own culture for where they are at, then it's fair to be critical of them and the culture when it comes to the bad parts too. |
Fair point, but how many people here complain about Koreans spouting off generalized statements about our culture and judging it? |
I don't know. You can't just throw out a random question like it somehow proves something when you haven't even established that it actually exists.
In any event, there's a difference between someone who has lived in Korea for 5, 8, 12 years and talking about the culture here and a Korean talking about "our" culture when they have actually never even left their own country. Further, it's much more difficult to generalize about "Western culture" seeing as it encompasses over a dozen countries (people can't even agree which ones), many of which are very multi-cultural within themselves to begin with. Korea is one small homogeneous country that takes pride in conformity and sameness. It's simply not the same thing.
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Also some of the biggest bomb throwers and harshest critics of Korea tend to be the most unwelcoming of criticism towards their own culture.
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I look forward to your proof that this is the case. Or even just one example. But yeah, throwing out baseless claims to prove a point no one was interested in talking about anyway is sort of your thing. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 1:36 am Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
So, from the top: Where did you get the 10's of millions figure? Did you just make it up?
TIA |
I posted a study on seatbelt usage by state. It also took into account average income level for each state. There was a strong correlation between income level and seatbelt usage. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 1:42 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
So, from the top: Where did you get the 10's of millions figure? Did you just make it up?
TIA |
I posted a study on seatbelt usage by state. It also took into account average income level for each state. There was a strong correlation between income level and seatbelt usage. |
You posted that 10's of millions of Americans did not wear their seat belts. That study said no such thing.
As for seatbelt use, there were other factors involved as well, factors that the authors wrote could as a whole be attributed to culture. This supports my argument and refutes yours.
Again, where did you get that number? Out of thin air? |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 2:07 am Post subject: |
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| le-paul wrote: |
For one, yes.
It would be nice if for example, the amount of aid given to the country by yourselves and Japan for example were recognised and accepted with some sembalnce of gratitutde. It isnt necessarily possible to prove one way or the t'other how people feel I suppose, its only our perceptions. I hold to mine however, Ill use what I can see.
An example of this is stating 'a miracle happened' on the han river with pure Korean dillegence. This arguably may be streching the facts a little and adding to misinformation/nationalism.
Further, it could be argued that popular feeling toward the Japnese is not always positive. Without doing a survey however, I cannot prove this. I do know that Japan is the second biggest contributor to aid in South Korea after the USA since the 1950s. I can only specualte the the majority of people do not want US army bases here or dislike Japan becasue of comfort women and Dokdo - this is despite the positive contributions.
Again, I cant prove this.
Anyway, you are correct in saying it is a philosophical debate. |
First, thanks for responding in a reasonable fashion.
For one thing, I think the response certainly differs according to generational lines, and this is in part understandable. Also, there is an element of "What have you done lately?".
For example, as an American I feel little obligation towards France for what they did for us back in the American Revolution. I think any debt has been paid and things have gone on for far too much time. Also, I don't ascribe any altruistic motives to the French.
In America, there are some people who think people in Western Europe "owe us" for our role in WWII. I don't put much stock into this. For one thing, I never fought there, so I would find it personally embarrassing if some Frenchman thanked my or thanked my country for anything having to do with it. While both my grandfathers were involved in the war effort, I certainly wouldn't want any credit for what they did because I don't want any blame for what they did. I am my own person.
The one thing I don't like, and I'll agree with you on this as it somewhat connects to the Miracle on the Han thing, is when countries talk about their development and certain economic policies of their country vs. the US in a judgmental way. They'll rip the American welfare and health system as well as our defense spending without considering how their country's own welfare and health systems were enabled by that very same American defense budget which freed up their economies to develop.
What most people don't realize is that that was the role and framework that was agreed on during the Cold War- Western Europe, Japan, Korea, and other nations would develop their economies, we'd free them from having to spend large amounts of money and manpower on defense. In return, they would also purchase our debt. We would play "Global Cop" because that's what the world wanted us to do. Now I don't ascribe any altruistic motives to all of this. I don't believe anyone should be "thanked" or "owed" for this. What I do think is that people should understand what happened when they talk about history and current events.
In the end, there is just something personally nauseating about the people who want this group credit but did absolutely nothing to bring it about. It's like some sports fan who thinks they are part of the reason their team won the championship.
| Quote: |
| You posted that 10's of millions of Americans did not wear their seat belts. That study said no such thing. |
Do the math atwood. If 20% of the population of a country of 300 million doesn't wear seatbelts, how many people are not wearing seatbelts?
| Quote: |
| In any event, there's a difference between someone who has lived in Korea for 5, 8, 12 years and talking about the culture here and a Korean talking about "our" culture when they have actually never even left their own country. Further, it's much more difficult to generalize about "Western culture" seeing as it encompasses over a dozen countries (people can't even agree which ones), many of which are very multi-cultural within themselves to begin with. Korea is one small homogeneous country that takes pride in conformity and sameness. It's simply not the same thing. |
But many Koreans have spent significant amounts of time overseas. Certainly they might have some valid complaints. Same with those who may deal with westerners day in and day out in Korea. Also, I think there are certainly some people who would take a criticism about Korea made by someone who had been here only a short time and say "See, see, even someone who has only been here a few weeks gets it!". Look, I don't care what the amount of time difference is- If you want to dish it out, you have to take it.
Also, the rest of what you're saying sounds an awfully like "We are special, please try to understand".
And if you can't grasp how within Korea, there are plenty of subcultures and varying and dynamic points of view, then you are just following into stereotype. Take for example the idea that "Korean culture is going out and drinking". Fine, except for the millions of Korean Christians to whom drinking is a serious social taboo. They are way too numerous a group to lump in with such a statement.
Culture is one of the crudest labels you can attach to something. It's like throwing out "vehicle" to describe something that could be a plane, train, or automobile.
| Quote: |
I look forward to your proof that this is the case. Or even just one example. But yeah, throwing out baseless claims to prove a point no one was interested in talking about anyway is sort of your thing.
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There's as much proof to backup my statement as there is to back up any statement regarding culture here. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 3:26 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| le-paul wrote: |
For one, yes.
It would be nice if for example, the amount of aid given to the country by yourselves and Japan for example were recognised and accepted with some sembalnce of gratitutde. It isnt necessarily possible to prove one way or the t'other how people feel I suppose, its only our perceptions. I hold to mine however, Ill use what I can see.
An example of this is stating 'a miracle happened' on the han river with pure Korean dillegence. This arguably may be streching the facts a little and adding to misinformation/nationalism.
Further, it could be argued that popular feeling toward the Japnese is not always positive. Without doing a survey however, I cannot prove this. I do know that Japan is the second biggest contributor to aid in South Korea after the USA since the 1950s. I can only specualte the the majority of people do not want US army bases here or dislike Japan becasue of comfort women and Dokdo - this is despite the positive contributions.
Again, I cant prove this.
Anyway, you are correct in saying it is a philosophical debate. |
First, thanks for responding in a reasonable fashion.
For one thing, I think the response certainly differs according to generational lines, and this is in part understandable. Also, there is an element of "What have you done lately?".
For example, as an American I feel little obligation towards France for what they did for us back in the American Revolution. I think any debt has been paid and things have gone on for far too much time. Also, I don't ascribe any altruistic motives to the French.
In America, there are some people who think people in Western Europe "owe us" for our role in WWII. I don't put much stock into this. For one thing, I never fought there, so I would find it personally embarrassing if some Frenchman thanked my or thanked my country for anything having to do with it. While both my grandfathers were involved in the war effort, I certainly wouldn't want any credit for what they did because I don't want any blame for what they did. I am my own person.
The one thing I don't like, and I'll agree with you on this as it somewhat connects to the Miracle on the Han thing, is when countries talk about their development and certain economic policies of their country vs. the US in a judgmental way. They'll rip the American welfare and health system as well as our defense spending without considering how their country's own welfare and health systems were enabled by that very same American defense budget which freed up their economies to develop.
What most people don't realize is that that was the role and framework that was agreed on during the Cold War- Western Europe, Japan, Korea, and other nations would develop their economies, we'd free them from having to spend large amounts of money and manpower on defense. In return, they would also purchase our debt. We would play "Global Cop" because that's what the world wanted us to do. Now I don't ascribe any altruistic motives to all of this. I don't believe anyone should be "thanked" or "owed" for this. What I do think is that people should understand what happened when they talk about history and current events.
In the end, there is just something personally nauseating about the people who want this group credit but did absolutely nothing to bring it about. It's like some sports fan who thinks they are part of the reason their team won the championship.
| Quote: |
| You posted that 10's of millions of Americans did not wear their seat belts. That study said no such thing. |
Do the math atwood. If 20% of the population of a country of 300 million doesn't wear seatbelts, how many people are not wearing seatbelts?
| Quote: |
| In any event, there's a difference between someone who has lived in Korea for 5, 8, 12 years and talking about the culture here and a Korean talking about "our" culture when they have actually never even left their own country. Further, it's much more difficult to generalize about "Western culture" seeing as it encompasses over a dozen countries (people can't even agree which ones), many of which are very multi-cultural within themselves to begin with. Korea is one small homogeneous country that takes pride in conformity and sameness. It's simply not the same thing. |
But many Koreans have spent significant amounts of time overseas. Certainly they might have some valid complaints. Same with those who may deal with westerners day in and day out in Korea. Also, I think there are certainly some people who would take a criticism about Korea made by someone who had been here only a short time and say "See, see, even someone who has only been here a few weeks gets it!". Look, I don't care what the amount of time difference is- If you want to dish it out, you have to take it.
Also, the rest of what you're saying sounds an awfully like "We are special, please try to understand".
And if you can't grasp how within Korea, there are plenty of subcultures and varying and dynamic points of view, then you are just following into stereotype. Take for example the idea that "Korean culture is going out and drinking". Fine, except for the millions of Korean Christians to whom drinking is a serious social taboo. They are way too numerous a group to lump in with such a statement.
Culture is one of the crudest labels you can attach to something. It's like throwing out "vehicle" to describe something that could be a plane, train, or automobile.
| Quote: |
I look forward to your proof that this is the case. Or even just one example. But yeah, throwing out baseless claims to prove a point no one was interested in talking about anyway is sort of your thing.
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There's as much proof to backup my statement as there is to back up any statement regarding culture here. |
Show me where it says 20%.
The link you provided gives real evidence of how culture affects people's actions.
Culture is defined by the majority, not the minority. Your Christian analogy just doesn't stand. Consuming mass quantities of alcohol, ala the coneheads, is Korean culture. That's why the government has instituted campaigns against such heavy drinking--to change the culture.
"As an American"--that's rich. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Show me where it says 20%. |
I went back to look again and I'll admit, I'm off with the numbers. I must have looked at an old source, because now it is up to 85% according to the NHTSA. Still, 15% of 300 million.
atwood, are you suggesting that 10s of millions of Americans DON'T wear their seatbelts?
Also, I believe seatbelt laws, from which the stats are derived, don't cover adults in the back seat. Just my personal observation- many people who buckle up when driving or riding in the front passenger seat, choose not to when riding in the back.
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Culture is defined by the majority, not the minority. Your Christian analogy just doesn't stand. Consuming mass quantities of alcohol, ala the coneheads, is Korean culture. That's why the government has instituted campaigns against such heavy drinking--to change the culture.
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No. If there is a significant minority you have to make a distinction. You can't continue to just slap a label on that doesn't fit for large swaths of the population. That would make as much sense as saying "Iraq is a Shi'ite Muslim nation. They have a Shi'ite culture." You're pursuing the path of least effort and least information when you simply go "Well they at least 50+1 percent, so let's label everyone that way".
So every time there is a government service campaign, that must mean the majority does it?
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| "As an American"--that's rich. |
Are you in anyway, shape, or form, denying that I am an American? |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Show me where it says 20%. |
I went back to look again and I'll admit, I'm off with the numbers. I must have looked at an old source, because now it is up to 85% according to the NHTSA. Still, 15% of 300 million.
atwood, are you suggesting that 10s of millions of Americans DON'T wear their seatbelts?
Also, I believe seatbelt laws, from which the stats are derived, don't cover adults in the back seat. Just my personal observation- many people who buckle up when driving or riding in the front passenger seat, choose not to when riding in the back.
| Quote: |
Culture is defined by the majority, not the minority. Your Christian analogy just doesn't stand. Consuming mass quantities of alcohol, ala the coneheads, is Korean culture. That's why the government has instituted campaigns against such heavy drinking--to change the culture.
|
No. If there is a significant minority you have to make a distinction. You can't continue to just slap a label on that doesn't fit for large swaths of the population. That would make as much sense as saying "Iraq is a Shi'ite Muslim nation. They have a Shi'ite culture." You're pursuing the path of least effort and least information when you simply go "Well they at least 50+1 percent, so let's label everyone that way".
So every time there is a government service campaign, that must mean the majority does it?
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| "As an American"--that's rich. |
Are you in anyway, shape, or form, denying that I am an American? |
There are only 194 million licensed drivers in the U.S. So, again, where are you getting 10s of millions?
As for wearing seatbelts in the backseat, there is evidence that it's safer not to. Anyway, that's just obfuscation on your part.
So there have not been government and corporate campaigns to change the drinking culture in Korea?
Iraq is a Muslim country and its culture is greatly influenced by Islam. You're trying to create a smokescreen, but it's not working.
Your penchant for excuse-making is un-American. |
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Smithington
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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Why are some of you people still debating Steelrails. When you see his (highly appropriate) avatar just skip down to the next post. Honestly, would you stand at your front door debating a religious freak for hours on end or just close the door?
Close the door fellas. Maybe he wiull move on to another building. |
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guavashake
Joined: 09 Nov 2013
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Now that's what I'm talkin about... |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
There are only 194 million licensed drivers in the U.S. So, again, where are you getting 10s of millions?
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Not all passengers and people who decide whether or not to wear a seatbelt are licensed drivers. Duh.
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| So there have not been government and corporate campaigns to change the drinking culture in Korea? |
Yes there have. There have been MADD campaigns in the US. Doesn't mean that the culture of the US is one of drunken drivers.
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Iraq is a Muslim country and its culture is greatly influenced by Islam. You're trying to create a smokescreen, but it's not working.
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atwood, I specifically cited Shi'ite Muslim. If you can't grasp the significance of that when talking about Iraq, you have no business discussing things. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
There are only 194 million licensed drivers in the U.S. So, again, where are you getting 10s of millions?
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Not all passengers and people who decide whether or not to wear a seatbelt are licensed drivers. Duh.
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| So there have not been government and corporate campaigns to change the drinking culture in Korea? |
Yes there have. There have been MADD campaigns in the US. Doesn't mean that the culture of the US is one of drunken drivers.
| Quote: |
Iraq is a Muslim country and its culture is greatly influenced by Islam. You're trying to create a smokescreen, but it's not working.
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atwood, I specifically cited Shi'ite Muslim. If you can't grasp the significance of that when talking about Iraq, you have no business discussing things. |
sr posted:
| Quote: |
| I went back to look again and I'll admit, I'm off with the numbers. I must have looked at an old source, because now it is up to 85% according to the NHTSA. Still, 15% of 300 million. |
On being informed thee were only 194 million and not 300 million drivers in the U.S.. sr posted:
Then why did you use 300 million?
MADD is an excellent example of culture. They worked to change a culture that was accepting of drunk driving. DUI citations and the severity of punishment for DUIs both increased due to MADD.
You keep shooting yourself in the foot.
And again, where did you get the figure 10s of millions? |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2014 6:57 am Post subject: |
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| Then why did you use 300 million? |
Because there are 300 million Americans and cars are incredibly ubiquitous. I'm sorry I didn't nail down the precise number of Americans that regularly drive in cars.
And not all people wearing seatbelts are drivers. Many are passengers.
| Quote: |
| MADD is an excellent example of culture. They worked to change a culture that was accepting of drunk driving. DUI citations and the severity of punishment for DUIs both increased due to MADD. |
And Korean police having a very strict .04 BAC limit and regularly checkpoints, which I can tell you firsthand are VERY tightly run, is what? Nothing?
Korea has taken some pretty good steps to combat drinking and driving. Anyone who drinks with Koreans know that people are pretty concerned about getting busted. That's why so many people make sure to get their transportation in line if they know they are going out drinking and why Driver Your Car Home services are so prevalent here.
| Quote: |
| And again, where did you get the figure 10s of millions? |
300 million people who drive or ride in cars. 15% of people don't buckle up, and that's just for the front seats where people get violated. 15% of 300 million is... |
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drcrazy
Joined: 19 Feb 2003
Location: Pusan. Yes, that's right. Pusan NOT Busan. I ain't never been to no place called Busan
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2014 7:12 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Then why did you use 300 million? |
Because there are 300 million Americans and cars are incredibly ubiquitous. I'm sorry I didn't nail down the precise number of Americans that regularly drive in cars.
And not all people wearing seatbelts are drivers. Many are passengers.
| Quote: |
| MADD is an excellent example of culture. They worked to change a culture that was accepting of drunk driving. DUI citations and the severity of punishment for DUIs both increased due to MADD. |
And Korean police having a very strict .04 BAC limit and regularly checkpoints, which I can tell you firsthand are VERY tightly run, is what? Nothing?
Korea has taken some pretty good steps to combat drinking and driving. Anyone who drinks with Koreans know that people are pretty concerned about getting busted. That's why so many people make sure to get their transportation in line if they know they are going out drinking and why Driver Your Car Home services are so prevalent here.
| Quote: |
| And again, where did you get the figure 10s of millions? |
300 million people who drive or ride in cars. 15% of people don't buckle up, and that's just for the front seats where people get violated. 15% of 300 million is... |
I am sure more people are violated in the back seat. At least that was the way it was "in my day".  |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2014 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Then why did you use 300 million? |
Because there are 300 million Americans and cars are incredibly ubiquitous. I'm sorry I didn't nail down the precise number of Americans that regularly drive in cars.
And not all people wearing seatbelts are drivers. Many are passengers.
| Quote: |
| MADD is an excellent example of culture. They worked to change a culture that was accepting of drunk driving. DUI citations and the severity of punishment for DUIs both increased due to MADD. |
And Korean police having a very strict .04 BAC limit and regularly checkpoints, which I can tell you firsthand are VERY tightly run, is what? Nothing?
Korea has taken some pretty good steps to combat drinking and driving. Anyone who drinks with Koreans know that people are pretty concerned about getting busted. That's why so many people make sure to get their transportation in line if they know they are going out drinking and why Driver Your Car Home services are so prevalent here.
| Quote: |
| And again, where did you get the figure 10s of millions? |
300 million people who drive or ride in cars. 15% of people don't buckle up, and that's just for the front seats where people get violated. 15% of 300 million is... |
300 million people is not going to work. You've got to subtract for people in nursing homes, baby and children who don't yet travel in cars and when they do are in car seats, the poor who don't have cars and use public transportation and so on.
You have not shown how you or anyone else arrived at the figure 10's of millions. You made it up.
Drunk driving checkpoints come and go in Korea. It's not a concerted effort. But it does show an attempt to change the drinking culture in SK. It's had some effect, but not enough to say the culture of drinking has changed. A large majority of Koreans still believe the best way to make and cement relationships, either personal or professional, is through drinking. |
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