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Harpeau
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Location: Coquitlam, BC
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 Posted: Tue May 06, 2014 2:50 am Post subject: |
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| swashbuckler wrote: |
Here's another uni in Seoul with crap pay (2.8 for 15 hours a week) and they require you to work in their "English Cafe" for an extra two hours and they don't even give the full vacations (it specifically says two months paid vacation as opposed to four) and no tenure and yet they still require at least 2 years UNIVERSITY teaching experience AND an MA degree..I guess this just goes to show how much the MA degree has become devalued in the last 5-10 years?
http://www.eslcafe.com/jobs/korea/index.cgi?read=60968 |
My friend works there and they actually get 4 months paid vacation per year. He think that it's a typo and they're checking it out. |
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jackson7
Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Location: Kim Jong Il's Future Fireball
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| Posted: Tue May 06, 2014 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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| GENO123 wrote: |
If a Korean University doesn' t pay severance then what they really pay is 200.000 won less than what they claim to pay.
Hogwons (are supposed to ) pay severance. No reason that universities ought to be be able to get out of having pay it when it comes calculating salaries.
if an instructor is on private pension plan they get money after they leave but it is only the money that was paid into and nothing much more unless the teacher was at the school for five years or more .
If a University doesn't pay national pension then that (100,000) ought to be deducted from the monthly salary calculation as well. |
Interesting ideas. Those complaining about this uni's low pay should also include the 300,000 housing allowance, by your declaration (3.1 for 15+2 hours). Advertised vacations are often listed as lower than the period actually given, as well. Ask in the interviews, and ye shall receive the information that you seek...
Severance is not paid if paying into the private teacher's pension. This has always been the case, and there is a very good reason for it, if you know how this pension works (which it seems you don't, as you're quoting information that is quite outdated -- you need only work at ANY university that is under the private pension scheme for 5 years or more to be vested in the first phase; this was changed several years ago, and has since helped to limit the number of schools using the "two-year contract renewable once" model to save money).
The national pension pays a pittance upon retirement, and thus severance is a slight supplementation. The real goods comes if one stays in the private pension, as long-timers here (remember, these pension schemes are created for Koreans, so please don't get started about most foreigners leaving before their 20 years are up) will benefit greatly from this system. A minimum 40% of the average of your last three years' monthly salary per month (higher if you work longer than 20 years, which isn't too much of a stretch for those of us that started working at unis in our late 20s or early 30s) is a VERY nice supplement to investments.
J7 |
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GENO123
Joined: 28 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Tue May 06, 2014 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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NATIONAL PENSION +SEVERANCE
200 monthly severance
100 national pension payout
100 (employees' contribution)
400,000 TOTAL
Versus
what you claim :
PRIVATE PENSION
200 employee's contribution
+80.000 schools contribution x .40%
280.00 TOTAL
So there is a total of 400 versus 280.
Seems that someone is still (far ) better off under severance + national pension than private pension even using the number you give (which I don't accept as being accurate -as of now).
As for housing I guess it ought to be included in all jobs that provide it when it comes to calculating salary.
*Of course you are going to (be able to) stay 20 years -happens all the time..
Please notice that under the private school pension program MOST if not all of the money you get back is just (and deductions are never fun) what you yourself put in.
Last edited by GENO123 on Tue May 06, 2014 7:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jackson7
Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Location: Kim Jong Il's Future Fireball
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| Posted: Tue May 06, 2014 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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I think you've misunderstood the math, here.
Under the private teacher's pension, the contributions are much, much higher, and thus the payout you receive is much higher, if you take the lump sum payout after 5 total years in the scheme.
The current NPS contribution rate is 4.5 percent from the employee, matched, for a total of 9 percent.
The current TPF contribution rate is just over 8.5 percent, matched for a total of over 17 percent. Not only do you enjoy the tax benefits from this, but you get a larger payout, too.
The really big difference comes in the benefits you receive for being part of the TPF. Additional insurance, death benefits if a parent or family member passes away, etc. add a lot of value to this.
The 40% I wrote before refers to your monthly benefit after retiring. If you worked for 20 years and averaged 4 mil a month in your last three years, you'd receive 1.6 mil a month for life upon turning 60. Not too terrible, and MUCH more than you'd receive in the NPS.
Please note that what you wrote about the TPF (private pension) applies only if you have not taught for 5 years in ANY institution enrolled in this scheme. If you took this option upon leaving a school in the past 5 years, you can actually pay that money back into the system and up your pension year count (as I did recently, adding a bundle!).
J7 |
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GENO123
Joined: 28 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Tue May 06, 2014 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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One does not get that addition money if they are at the school less than 5 years. Not many stay more than five years (for lots of reasons) And I would be not so confident about being at your school for 20 years either. IF someone is at a school less than 5 years severance and national pension is a much better deal.
and the teachers contributions vary but overall they come to about 200 month which is a deduction the university matches them but as I said a teacher doesn't get much of that money if they are there less than 5 years . even if they are there more than 5 but less than 20 there is still a decent amount of that money that they will not see.
1)You need to be at a school 5 years or you are out of luck. Many -most teachers are not only not at a University for five years they are not even in Korea for five years.
2) If you include severance in addition to the national pension. Unless a teacher is in the private pension system. The nation pension + severance has far less deductions and is worth much more . The numbers are what they are.
I know of no one who has been at a University 20 years. Were you to find someone like that it would be such an unusual case to the extent of which that it would not really be relevant to the discussion anyway. |
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jackson7
Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Location: Kim Jong Il's Future Fireball
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 1:00 am Post subject: |
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You're just not getting it, here. When I write ANY school for 5 years, I mean that you can be at school A for 1, school B for 2, and school C for 2, or another other possible combination imaginable. This is fairly recent (the last 4-5 years, I believe).
Everyone I work with at my uni in Seoul is in his or her early to mid 30's and has been at unis for more than 5-6 years. Many have been in unis for 12-15. When you've been working for 3-4 hours 3-4 days per week for 32 weeks a year, it's tough for folks to imagine attempting to go back "home." More than half of these folks are NOT married to Koreans, so they're staying for other reasons.
I will, though, agree that it's a much better deal to do the NPS deal if you're working less than 5 years...unless you're from a country that doesn't have a pension reciprocity agreement in place (i.e., British guys and gals).
J7 |
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GENO123
Joined: 28 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 1:15 am Post subject: |
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| When you've been working for 3-4 hours 3-4 days per week for 32 weeks a year |
You might be in class that long but at many universities you are going to be working A LOT more than that. You will get paid for 3-4 hours a day 3-4 days week (which isn't much ) but you WILL be working MUCH MORE than that. Sky is the limit.
No one really has twenty weeks of vacation either There is a week or two of very substantial paper & administrative work before and after each term.
By the way if someone is on national pension they might be able to use to to qualify for social security in the US.
Last edited by GENO123 on Wed May 07, 2014 2:25 am; edited 5 times in total |
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fustiancorduroy
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 1:31 am Post subject: |
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Eh, what's so good about university jobs anyway? They are basically part-time jobs with part-time salaries. You don't work enough to feel like you are doing something worthwhile and you hardly make any more money than a newbie hagwon teacher. To make ends meet, you'd really have to get a second job and/or teach privates like crazy. Or, if you are lucky enough to be in the publishing business, churn out at least one book each month.
As for the students, well, they are basically older versions of the kids you teach in public schools. That is to say, not very motivated to study and not very fluent in English (unless you are working at an elite university). Even worse, they are at the age where they think they know everything yet they hardly know anything. If you want to teach the really smart students, you have to work with them when they are younger -- as I do -- because they go to Western countries for university.
One of my friends who works at a university in Seoul said that his school would give me a job if I wanted. I politely declined. I'd rather work at my top-tier hagwon where I can make a real livable wage and teach students who are fluent in English yet young enough to follow my instructions without questioning me or my methods. Having 5 months of vacation ain't worth all the sacrifices you deal with at a university job. |
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jackson7
Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Location: Kim Jong Il's Future Fireball
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 2:24 am Post subject: |
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GENO -- If you're on the TPF you can actually qualify for Social Security back in the States AND receive your private pension here. It's a rare loophole that may be closed in the future (we're obviously not supposed to be able to double-dip), but I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
FC -- You were lookin' at the wrong gig, pal. In my circle, everyone banks, and while there is the normal grading involved with a university teaching position, you're still putting in far less than 20 hours a week for 3.5+. I prefer that and my 5 months over a "top-tier" hagwon gig, but my students also listen to what I say.
Didn't take long for the thread to attract the usual "uni gigs aren't all they're cracked up to be" posters. To each his own, I suppose, but at the end of the day, many enjoy making a lot of money for little contact hours and LOTS of vacation.
J7 |
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swashbuckler
Joined: 20 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 3:09 am Post subject: |
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| jackson7 wrote: |
GENO -- If you're on the TPF you can actually qualify for Social Security back in the States AND receive your private pension here. It's a rare loophole that may be closed in the future (we're obviously not supposed to be able to double-dip), but I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
FC -- You were lookin' at the wrong gig, pal. In my circle, everyone banks, and while there is the normal grading involved with a university teaching position, you're still putting in far less than 20 hours a week for 3.5+. I prefer that and my 5 months over a "top-tier" hagwon gig, but my students also listen to what I say.
Didn't take long for the thread to attract the usual "uni gigs aren't all they're cracked up to be" posters. To each his own, I suppose, but at the end of the day, many enjoy making a lot of money for little contact hours and LOTS of vacation.
J7 |
The Korean EFL university circuit..where motivation goes to die and how much time one spends away from the job becomes a measurement of success |
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fustiancorduroy
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 3:12 am Post subject: |
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| jackson7 wrote: |
FC -- You were lookin' at the wrong gig, pal. In my circle, everyone banks, and while there is the normal grading involved with a university teaching position, you're still putting in far less than 20 hours a week for 3.5+. I prefer that and my 5 months over a "top-tier" hagwon gig, but my students also listen to what I say.
Didn't take long for the thread to attract the usual "uni gigs aren't all they're cracked up to be" posters. To each his own, I suppose, but at the end of the day, many enjoy making a lot of money for little contact hours and LOTS of vacation.
J7 |
I suppose your friends have far better than average university jobs because most of the people I know who work at universities do only teach around 15 hours a week, but they often spend just as many hours each week grading and planning for their classes, all that to earn maybe 2.7 or 3.0 million won a month.
And really, 3.5 million won a month is not a lot of money, not enough to live a decent life and (if you want) support a family, at least. So, as I said, you would have to work a lot more anyway to make a livable salary (as in at least 5 million won a month, and even that really isn't much money). This is what a lot of my friends who work in universities end up doing. A number of them teach at other universities part-time or work at hagwons. During their so-called "vacation" time, they have to teach at camps or hagwons to help make ends meet. In total, they all put in around 40 hours a week or more to make around 4.5 or 5 million won. With a single university job alone, you work part-time to make part-time money.
If you want to live in a three- or four-bedroom apartment in the middle of Seoul, drive a late model car, eat imported food, take vacations to Europe and stay in proper hotels, etc. then you definitely need to work a lot more than 20 hours a week at your university to earn your keep, thus negating the supposed reason to work at universities in the first place. This is why I think it's better to work at a good hagwon since you can make much, much more money than 3.5 million won a month while having to commute only to that one job and put in the same number of hours each week (or fewer) to earn a proper income. For instance, I know people who teach 20-25 hours a week in Gangnam hagwons and earn between 4.5 to 8 million won a month.
To summarize, if you want to live an easy life "working" at your university job, don't mind living a meager existence, and barely have enough money left over each month to save for the future, then, yeah, universities jobs are great. But until they all start paying 5.0 million won a month or more, working at a top-tier hagwon is a better deal if you have any ambition or desire to live a comfortable life. As you said, to each his own, but I think it is a mistake to assume that earning 3.5 million won a month at a university with 5 months off is the pinnacle of teaching jobs in Korea.
Last edited by fustiancorduroy on Wed May 07, 2014 3:16 am; edited 2 times in total |
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fustiancorduroy
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 3:13 am Post subject: |
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| swashbuckler wrote: |
The Korean EFL university circuit..where motivation goes to die and how much time one spends away from the job becomes a measurement of success |
I know, right? |
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swashbuckler
Joined: 20 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 3:24 am Post subject: |
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| fustiancorduroy wrote: |
| jackson7 wrote: |
FC -- You were lookin' at the wrong gig, pal. In my circle, everyone banks, and while there is the normal grading involved with a university teaching position, you're still putting in far less than 20 hours a week for 3.5+. I prefer that and my 5 months over a "top-tier" hagwon gig, but my students also listen to what I say.
Didn't take long for the thread to attract the usual "uni gigs aren't all they're cracked up to be" posters. To each his own, I suppose, but at the end of the day, many enjoy making a lot of money for little contact hours and LOTS of vacation.
J7 |
I suppose your friends have far better than average university jobs because most of the people I know who work at universities do only teach around 15 hours a week, but they often spend just as many hours each week grading and planning for their classes, all that to earn maybe 2.7 or 3.0 million won a month.
And really, 3.5 million won a month is not a lot of money, not enough to live a decent life and (if you want) support a family, at least. So, as I said, you would have to work a lot more anyway to make a livable salary (as in at least 5 million won a month, and even that really isn't much money). This is what a lot of my friends who work in universities end up doing. A number of them teach at other universities part-time or work at hagwons. During their so-called "vacation" time, they have to teach at camps or hagwons to help make ends meet. In total, they all put in around 40 hours a week or more to make around 4.5 or 5 million won. With a single university job alone, you work part-time to make part-time money.
If you want to live a three- or four-bedroom apartment in the middle of Seoul, drive a late model car, eat imported food, take vacations to Europe and stay in proper hotels, etc. then you definitely need to work a lot more than 20 hours a week at your university to earn your keep, thus negating the supposed reason to work at universities in the first place. This is why I think it's better to work at a good hagwon since you can make much, much more money than 3.5 million won a month while having to commute only to that one job and put in the same number of hours each week (or fewer) to earn a proper income. For instance, I know people who teach 20-25 hours a week in Gangnam hagwons and earn between 4.5 to 8 million won a month.
To summarize, if you want to live an easy life "working" at your university job, don't mind living a meager existence, and barely have enough money left over each month to save for the future, then, yeah, universities jobs are great. But until they all start paying 5.0 million won a month or more, working at a top-tier hagwon is a better deal if you have any ambition or desire to live a comfortable life. |
Not to mention that I'm sure all those foreigners in Korea NOT married to Koreans are thrilled by the idea of someday putting their children through the soul-draining education system from middle school onwards, or paying 25,000 dollars year for an international school, or sending their children back home to go to school while being separated for long stretches of time.
I guess this wouldn't apply to any those teachers in Korea with Peter Pan syndrome who have no interest in either getting married or having children, or who are past their prime and can't. I've met are quite a few in both camps. |
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jackson7
Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Location: Kim Jong Il's Future Fireball
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 3:32 am Post subject: |
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The whole gang's here! Mention unis and they shall come...
J7 |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 3:42 am Post subject: |
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| jackson7 wrote: |
Didn't take long for the thread to attract the usual "uni gigs aren't all they're cracked up to be" posters. To each his own, I suppose, but at the end of the day, many enjoy making a lot of money |
| jackson7 wrote: |
| I'm also one that has kept up with the times, publishing and presenting, and will finish my doctorate later this year |
Well, to me it's not worth the time, money, and effort to get a Ph.D in teaching English for such a low salary. (Doctorates in other subject areas pay more.)
Last edited by World Traveler on Wed May 07, 2014 3:48 am; edited 1 time in total |
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