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geldedgoat

Joined: 05 Mar 2009

Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 8:18 pm Post subject:

Fox wrote:

But what of male cows and chickens? [...] In the past male cows were at least useful for labor.

I admit this is a not insignificant point and a problem under current conditions. Technology currently exists, however, that can isolate female sperm from a male's semen which can then be used to impregnate a cow or hen. It's not practical for widescale use now, I agree, but in the time it would take for such a societal overhaul to complete, there's no doubt in my mind that the efficiency of such procedures would increase to the point that it would be of little concern. I know already that you may object to the seriousness of such a program, and I won't begrudge you a raised eyebrow or two.

Of course, then there's always your quest for austerity, and my change of profession was made with a similar goal in mind. As long as there's no actual feces flinging, I see no reason our paths can't intertwine. I'd even allow for barking at strangers. With a bull in tow that could be quite entertaining.

On a somewhat related, random tangent, I learned today at work that bull semen is roughly 60:40 male:female, but the viability of male embryos is such that the birth rate is nearly equal.

Quote:

I think domestic pigs would fare extremely poorly. Pot-bellied pigs are passable pets, but huge hungry sows?

Pot-bellied pigs, contrary to popular belief, still get fairly massive. Nothing like what is raised for slaughter, but that's not a healthy set of genes anyway.

Since I'm sharing random anecdotes, about a year ago my wife called me while I was at work and told me there was a strange animal wandering around our front yard (we live in run-of-the-mill suburbia with fairly small front and back yards). She sent me a couple pictures, and it turns out it was a pot-bellied pig. After coaxing it into our backyard, we took some pictures, posted it on some rescue sites, and after a couple months found a new home for her. A couple weeks later, the lady that adopted her sent me a picture from her kitchen* with the pig lying on her side, suckling a newborn piglet. No wonder the thing looked so fat when we had her.

*I know three people, two clients at our clinic and this lady that adopted our found pig, that keep swine as pets, and every single one of them has converted their kitchens into pig pens. Weird knows no boundaries it seems.

Quote:

India produced 3.643 million metric tons of beef in 2012, of which 1.963 million metric tons was consumed domestically and 1.680 million metric tons was exported.

I knew some areas ate beef in India, but I didn't know that many did. Still, would you not agree that those that don't serve as example enough that peaceful coexistence is possible? Even if they live in a mode similar to the one to which you claim to aspire?

Also, looking over that link at the differences in slaughter regulations in the various Indian counties, I see another point worth mentioning: slaughtering animals with purely an end to suffering in mind and making use of the meat is reasonable and should not be at odds with a vegetarian lifestyle. This would include what appears to be the rule in several of these locales, as well as hunting to manage population explosions. Opposition to controlled hunting with bag limits grates on me to no end.

Quote:

[...] a strict vegan will incentivize him to transition from dairy to what, corn?

Strict vegans are an unreasonable lot, and I dislike defending them and their opinions. That's why I'm taking pains to frame the discussion in terms of meat-eaters and non-meat-eaters.

Quote:

But serious question: what does that dairy farmer do with male cows? Of course a few for breeding are useful, but the rest? And when dairy cows get old, does he sell them to be slaughtered?

The one I know personally? He's converted his farm purely for profit, and does all the things with his herd that you suspect. Obviously not the ideal I envision.

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 9:05 pm Post subject:

geldedgoat wrote:

Fox wrote:

But what of male cows and chickens? [...] In the past male cows were at least useful for labor.

Well, science does provide hypothetical solutions. I have the feeling that synthetic meat is going to be the more likely resolution in the long term, if it can be made affordably.

geldedgoat wrote:

Quote:

India produced 3.643 million metric tons of beef in 2012, of which 1.963 million metric tons was consumed domestically and 1.680 million metric tons was exported.

Well, I will not say it's impossible in any universal sense, but whether we could shift into such a mode in the West, lacking the religious and cultural basis which makes it possible for them, I'm not so confident. I'm also not sure how I feel about that evident harmony being predicated upon a likely false world view. I admire how Jains, for example, conduct themselves, but at the cost of probable self-delusion? Is the man who is tricked into doing good actually doing good? I suppose a strict utilitarian might say yes, but I cannot. I guess that's beyond the scope of this thread though.

geldedgoat wrote:

Also, looking over that link at the differences in slaughter regulations in the various Indian counties, I see another point worth mentioning: slaughtering animals with purely an end to suffering in mind and making use of the meat is reasonable and should not be at odds with a vegetarian lifestyle. This would include what appears to be the rule in several of these locales, as well as hunting to manage population explosions. Opposition to controlled hunting with bag limits grates on me to no end.

See, I feel like this is in line with my own thoughts. I'm no hunter, but I think the responsible hunter is a positive participant in the ecosystem, even from the perspective of the hunted species. It's a question of what is really being focused on: the collective welfare of animals, or clean hands?

geldedgoat wrote:

Quote:

But serious question: what does that dairy farmer do with male cows? Of course a few for breeding are useful, but the rest? And when dairy cows get old, does he sell them to be slaughtered?

The one I know personally? He's converted his farm purely for profit, and does all the things with his herd that you suspect. Obviously not the ideal I envision.

Right, but it's a real problem. Scientific advances may solve it, but for now, the dairy & egg industries seem strongly linked to the meat & poultry industries, with the latter "subsidizing" the former by purchasing male animals, right?

Anyway, I'm sympathetic, and honestly I'm still a little confused inside about it all. But I do not think consuming meat means one does not care about animals.

Mix1

Joined: 08 May 2007

Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 6:07 pm Post subject:

geldedgoat wrote:

Mix1 wrote:

Maybe free range, grass fed beef is the way to go if you want to reduce killing animals properly.

Most vegetarians and vegans I've met set a similar metric for themselves, that of reducing animal death, and it's always baffled me. Why focus on the deaths? And of just animals? No diet that encourages real health, not even that of the ridiculous fruititarians, avoids death to any significant degree. Vegetarians kill plants and fruititarianism adopted on a mass scale would necessitate the death of billions of humans. Reducing suffering, though, seems a much more reasonable goal. That allows us to avoid harm to those things which can experience pain and distress, like birds and mammals, and instead rely on those that cannot, such as plants, most invertebrates, and fish. Also humanely kept dairy cows and egg-laying chickens.

I generally agree with you.
The statement I wrote above was in response to a militant vegan; it's not necessarily my own view or advocation. I was just contrasting free-range agriculture with agricultural farms (even strictly veggie farms) in terms of environmental impact and total suffering caused to all animals in the equation, which is an open question.

Of course this was unsurprisingly dismissed as "ridiculous" and not even addressed by her. This is probably because for many militant vegans, it's an exclusive club and is more about putting themselves on a pedestal and trying to shame/blame others and make themselves feel better. It's kind of like a religion or cult in that way.

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Tue May 13, 2014 6:39 pm Post subject:

pzebra wrote:

...Still the act of eating meat is evil whether one or a million.

pzebra wrote:

I don't give a damn about what you think I should do or how I should convey myself.

Then tell us why WE should care about what you think we should do or how we should convey ourselves?

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