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Sector7G
Joined: 24 May 2008
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 Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 7:30 am Post subject: |
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| Stan Rogers wrote: |
I'm not a lawyer so I could be wrong about this, but a ship captain from the U.S. told me so. Its the premeditation factor that could make it a murder charge.
For example, a ship is on fire, flares are fired and people jump in the water. Other ship captain nearby sees this, decides to drive away and let those people drown. That could make it murder.
We are splitting hairs here. There was a time in America when stealing a horse could get a thief hanged if he did it in the wrong place.
Anyway I agree with the Koreans decision to charge those responsible like they have. |
I am no lawyer either, but I would think premeditation would have to go further than your example - like actually planning and causing the ship fire in the first place.
Not sure how vigilante justice for horse thieves applies now in trying to decide appropriate charges.
Anyway, I still think murder in the Sewol case is an over charge. How about manslaughter as a result of dereliction of duty? |
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Stan Rogers
Joined: 20 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 7:37 am Post subject: |
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| Sector7G wrote: |
| Stan Rogers wrote: |
I'm not a lawyer so I could be wrong about this, but a ship captain from the U.S. told me so. Its the premeditation factor that could make it a murder charge.
For example, a ship is on fire, flares are fired and people jump in the water. Other ship captain nearby sees this, decides to drive away and let those people drown. That could make it murder.
We are splitting hairs here. There was a time in America when stealing a horse could get a thief hanged if he did it in the wrong place.
Anyway I agree with the Koreans decision to charge those responsible like they have. |
I am no lawyer either, but I would think premeditation would have to go further than your example - like actually planning and causing the ship fire in the first place.
Not sure how vigilante justice for horse thieves applies now in trying to decide appropriate charges.
Anyway, I still think murder in the Sewol case is an over charge. How about manslaughter as a result of dereliction of duty? |
I'm not going to play lawyer on this one. As I just posted, the crew's actions resulted in the deaths of hundreds of children. Its not about legal classifications, its about the magnitude of what happened. |
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Sector7G
Joined: 24 May 2008
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 7:50 am Post subject: |
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| Stan Rogers wrote: |
I'm not going to play lawyer on this one. As I just posted, the crew's actions resulted in the deaths of hundreds of children. Its not about legal classifications, its about the magnitude of what happened. |
Well, technically it was their inaction that caused the deaths, and sorry, but I thought you and I were discussing the difference in legal classifications between the USA and the ROK.
Never mind. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 7:57 am Post subject: |
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| Stan Rogers wrote: |
Steelrails I think you are overanalyzing details and seeing it as a timeline of events. It was one big event.
You are missing the big picture here. The crew are guilty of operating a ship in a way that resulted in the deaths of hunderds of children. |
I'm not missing that big picture. I agree with that. I've said that from the beginning. The fact that the timeline raised questions about one of the things the crew is being accused of doing IS significant. If you want to convict people of something, you've got to pay attention to those details and things like a timeline. You've gotta do it right.
Also, while there might not be enough to get them for murder in terms of negligence causing the accident due to lack of foresight and intent, there might well be enough to get them for that for the decision to abandon ship as they had something like 40 minutes after the situation became untenable to formulate a decision to leave as soon as possible off the ship without engaging in any relief efforts. This is separate from the evacuation order in the first 4 minutes or not ordering one while waiting for assistance (which I think they should have done and there isn't enough reasonable doubt to support that after the situation became untenable- sufficient evidence to determine ship would sink, time to arrive at that decision, and the risk of staying put clearly far outweighs that of abandoning ship). This was a conscious decision, apparently pre-meditated with sufficient time to consider its implications to not engage in their duties and render aid to those on the ship and to instead abandon it.
Like you all, I'm no lawyer, so hopefully someone might clarify that, but that might be a significant factor. |
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Mr. BlackCat
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Some misguided 15 year old girls set up fan pages for the Boston bombers because they were 'cute' and 'misunderstood'. Maybe SR can set up a similar site for the captain? You know, talk about how everyone is wrong and only SR understands him. He can also draw hearts around pictures of the captain and talk about them getting married. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
| Some misguided 15 year old girls set up fan pages for the Boston bombers because they were 'cute' and 'misunderstood'. Maybe SR can set up a similar site for the captain? You know, talk about how everyone is wrong and only SR understands him. He can also draw hearts around pictures of the captain and talk about them getting married. |
Dude, why is it so hard for you to grasp the concept of me thinking the guy is a complete scuzzbucket for multiple actions, but one thing people are taking him to task for, I have my doubts.
That doesn't mean I love the dude. Why is that concept so hard for you to grasp? Are you that narrow-minded? |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
| Some misguided 15 year old girls set up fan pages for the Boston bombers because they were 'cute' and 'misunderstood'. Maybe SR can set up a similar site for the captain? You know, talk about how everyone is wrong and only SR understands him. He can also draw hearts around pictures of the captain and talk about them getting married. |
Dude, why is it so hard for you to grasp the concept of me thinking the guy is a complete scuzzbucket for multiple actions, but one thing people are taking him to task for, I have my doubts.
That doesn't mean I love the dude. Why is that concept so hard for you to grasp? Are you that narrow-minded? |
Is it that you somehow identify with the captain?
Like him, you take indefensible positions which you both feel compelled to defend. The captain of course wants to save his life and minimize any jail term. You, on the other hand, just cannot constitutionally admit that you;re wrong and move on.
And your four minutes was up long ago. |
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Mr. BlackCat
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2014 12:39 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
| Some misguided 15 year old girls set up fan pages for the Boston bombers because they were 'cute' and 'misunderstood'. Maybe SR can set up a similar site for the captain? You know, talk about how everyone is wrong and only SR understands him. He can also draw hearts around pictures of the captain and talk about them getting married. |
Dude, why is it so hard for you to grasp the concept of me thinking the guy is a complete scuzzbucket for multiple actions, but one thing people are taking him to task for, I have my doubts.
That doesn't mean I love the dude. Why is that concept so hard for you to grasp? Are you that narrow-minded? |
Whoa, there. Calm down. I don't mean to offend you or your boyfriend, the Sewol captain. Maybe you could make a little shrine at the courthouse during the trial and bake him some cookies. Do they allow conjugal visits in Korea? |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2014 1:48 am Post subject: |
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| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
| Some misguided 15 year old girls set up fan pages for the Boston bombers because they were 'cute' and 'misunderstood'. Maybe SR can set up a similar site for the captain? You know, talk about how everyone is wrong and only SR understands him. He can also draw hearts around pictures of the captain and talk about them getting married. |
Dude, why is it so hard for you to grasp the concept of me thinking the guy is a complete scuzzbucket for multiple actions, but one thing people are taking him to task for, I have my doubts.
That doesn't mean I love the dude. Why is that concept so hard for you to grasp? Are you that narrow-minded? |
Whoa, there. Calm down. I don't mean to offend you or your boyfriend, the Sewol captain. Maybe you could make a little shrine at the courthouse during the trial and bake him some cookies. Do they allow conjugal visits in Korea? |
Dude, that's out of line. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2014 5:03 am Post subject: |
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From what I understand of Korean murder charges, they differ compared to the US.
In the US, you bring the specific charge against the person - 1st degree, 2nd, nd so on. And the onus is on the prosecution for proof depending on the specific charge.
In Korea they charge for murder/death. The prosecution brings the case, and according to what's presented, it's then judged as 1st, 2nd, etc... |
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isitts
Joined: 25 Dec 2008
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2014 6:06 am Post subject: |
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| nicwr2002 wrote: |
| They also need to indict the people responsible for approving the redesign of the ship as well as inspectors who allowed the ship to be overloaded. |
I agree. In fact I think in light of the redesign and overload, it males the captain and crew members seem more like scapegoats since they were on a death trap, same as the students.
I think the ruling as it stands is fine, but a few questions...
If the captain and crew had done the right thing, and somehow managed to get everyone off alive, would we then be as angry at the people who redesigned the ship and those who allowed the ship to be overloaded as we are at the captain and crew?
Or...
If the captain and crew had done the right thing, but they died, saving the same number of students as had actually been saved, would we be as angry at the aforementioned as we are at the captain and crew?
I probably could have phrased those better. But for myself, I'm angrier at these faceless redesigners and inspectors than I am at the captain and the crew. It's too easy to be angry at the cowardice than to face the fact that even if they had ordered everyone to abandon ship, and stayed to help the passengers, they were simply not going to get everyone off. Not off this ship anyway. And not with that many passengers.
Just my two cents. |
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Mr. BlackCat
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2014 10:08 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
| Some misguided 15 year old girls set up fan pages for the Boston bombers because they were 'cute' and 'misunderstood'. Maybe SR can set up a similar site for the captain? You know, talk about how everyone is wrong and only SR understands him. He can also draw hearts around pictures of the captain and talk about them getting married. |
Dude, why is it so hard for you to grasp the concept of me thinking the guy is a complete scuzzbucket for multiple actions, but one thing people are taking him to task for, I have my doubts.
That doesn't mean I love the dude. Why is that concept so hard for you to grasp? Are you that narrow-minded? |
Whoa, there. Calm down. I don't mean to offend you or your boyfriend, the Sewol captain. Maybe you could make a little shrine at the courthouse during the trial and bake him some cookies. Do they allow conjugal visits in Korea? |
Dude, that's out of line. |
You're right. Me making fun of you for defending the captain is much more 'out of line' than you defending the man who is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of children. Just like foreigners holding the captain responsible is much more racist than you defending him just because he's Korean.
Just curious, how many "Free the Captain!" t-shirts have you printed off so far? |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2014 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
You're right. Me making fun of you for defending the captain is much more 'out of line' than you defending the man who is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of children. Just like foreigners holding the captain responsible is much more racist than you defending him just because he's Korean.
Just curious, how many "Free the Captain!" t-shirts have you printed off so far? |
BlackCat, if I'm such a fan of the captain, why am I putting forward a case for premeditation in his neglect of his duties that might support a more serious charge against him?
It's called being able to rationally and intellectually examine each individual facet of the case. A person with intellect and reason can say that a person may not be responsible for one part of an incident and consider him more culpable for another part of the incident. I'm sorry you do not possess the intellect and the reason to able to do such a thing. |
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byrddogs
Joined: 19 Jun 2009
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2014 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
You're right. Me making fun of you for defending the captain is much more 'out of line' than you defending the man who is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of children. Just like foreigners holding the captain responsible is much more racist than you defending him just because he's Korean.
Just curious, how many "Free the Captain!" t-shirts have you printed off so far? |
BlackCat, if I'm such a fan of the captain, why am I putting forward a case for premeditation in his neglect of his duties that might support a more serious charge against him?
It's called being able to rationally and intellectually examine each individual facet of the case. A person with intellect and reason can say that a person may not be responsible for one part of an incident and consider him more culpable for another part of the incident. I'm sorry you do not possess the intellect and the reason to able to do such a thing. |
No, it's you being you; a guy that throws out hypotheticals and comparisons at every turn. You lose. |
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fezmond
Joined: 27 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2014 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Peace in the Middle East or Steelrails admitting he's wrong. Which will happen first? |
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