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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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Never heard a Korean adult say they like trot. The answers to 'what sort of music to you like? From Korean adults are surprisingly varied. From 'ballads' and music they listened to when kids - e.g. So tae Ji - to classical, jazz, rock, Western pop music and Christian music. A pretty mixed bag. In my experience the commonest answer is classical. |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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Posted: Sat May 17, 2014 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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Steelrails wrote: |
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and try to market it worldwide as their own unique thing.
Also, taking pride in something you blatantly copied and then try to pass it off as your own thing is strange. |
Are they really trying to market it as their own unique thing? Aren't they just saying "hey, we sing and dance really well and put it in a nice package?"
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Some maybe, but no... they are not just saying that. It's been promoted by the government as a "cultural export" and is part of a promotional campaign to promote the country itself. And when some foreigners do like it, the local press here trumpets it like there's no tomorrow. That's the silly part I've already mentioned, beyond the genre itself. Good try though.
That's the aspect to which adults here "like" K-pop, not so much the actual listening time. Now contrast that with "back home" and the average adult is more likely to scorn the top 40 crap and silly teen idols and certainly do NOT view them as a badge of pride for the country. If you have trouble believing or grasping that, that's fine.
And if you want to keep milking the demographics angle, go ahead but it's really just a distraction. I guess that's what you have to do if you are going to mount a defense for K-pop.
Anyway, I'm done here. K-pop speaks for itself and I've made several points about it. Unless it changes drastically, there's really not much you can say that's going to sway me on it. In fact, I don't give it much thought to it in daily life, which is as it should be.
And don't try to spin it that if someone dislikes K-pop they must have "issues" ...since dislike and disdain is a pretty natural reaction to that genre, especially if you come from the west and can recognize it as a series of inferior copies.
Besides that, you'll need the energy for other threads to devote to defending the Sewol captain...
Good luck. Your battles will continue. |
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Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009 Location: Earth, Solar System
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Posted: Sat May 17, 2014 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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It's been promoted by the government as a "cultural export" and is part of a promotional campaign to promote the country itself. |
Well people in other countries seem to be buying it up. You do realize that the foreign consumption started BEFORE the government cultural export stuff, right? The government is simply following the money, trying to get their piece of the pie.
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That's the aspect to which adults here "like" K-pop, not so much the actual listening time. |
Yes, adults who grew up in what at the time was the poorest country on Earth, war torn, and dealt with coups and military dictatorships, are happy now that musical artists from their nation are making a mark in other countries, and have become newsworthy.
What awful, awful people that makes them.
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Anyway, I'm done here. K-pop speaks for itself and I've made several points about it. |
You don't have to like Kpop. I don't care much for the new stuff. But your original claim here that Korean adults are all into Kpop isn't really standing up well. Even posters who we would definitely not calling apologists are saying that doesn't jive with their experiences.
You could just say the music sucks. But trying to make this whole argument that its awful because adults (beyond 20-early 30 somethings) listen to it is just nonsense because it simply isn't true. And as for it being bad for them "liking the fact that its been exported", I mean given the circumstances those adults grew up in, being angry at them for being happy their country can finally export entertainment just comes across as douchey. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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Posted: Sun May 18, 2014 1:04 am Post subject: |
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Yes, adults who grew up in what at the time was the poorest country on Earth, war torn, and dealt with coups and military dictatorships, are happy now that musical artists from their nation are making a mark in other countries, and have become newsworthy.
What awful, awful people that makes them.
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Stop it with the hyperbole. Who said anything about Koreans being awful people? Most Korean adults attitude towards K Pop is slightly irritating. I get slightly irritated when I'm talking to the 10th Korean adult in a row who tries to force me to be impressed by telling me K Pop is famous all over the world, when I know it isn't, and we both know it's not very good. Maybe they should
be more aware of the fact that exaggerating and boasting about your country's mediocre artistic achievements to foreigners is not going to endear you to them very much. That's all. |
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Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009 Location: Earth, Solar System
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Posted: Sun May 18, 2014 3:54 am Post subject: |
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edwardcatflap wrote: |
Stop it with the hyperbole. Who said anything about Koreans being awful people? Most Korean adults attitude towards K Pop is slightly irritating. I get slightly irritated when I'm talking to the 10th Korean adult in a row who tries to force me to be impressed by telling me K Pop is famous all over the world, when I know it isn't, and we both know it's not very good. Maybe they should
be more aware of the fact that exaggerating and boasting about your country's mediocre artistic achievements to foreigners is not going to endear you to them very much. That's all. |
I dunno, Mix1 was edging towards nastiness.
Heck, you yourself just said that as far as adults go, you get a mixed bag when it comes to their musical preferences.
And I don't know what kind of conversations your having with adults that turn into sales pitches for Kpop. The Koreans I hang out with talk about real stuff- their lives, their families, work, money, sports, movies, shows, current events, whatnot. Are you having real conversations with these people or are you just meeting them at adult conversation clubs where people blurt out canned phrases? |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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Posted: Sun May 18, 2014 4:13 am Post subject: |
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And I don't know what kind of conversations your having with adults that turn into sales pitches for Kpop. The Koreans I hang out with talk about real stuff- their lives, their families, work, money, sports, movies, shows, current events, whatnot. Are you having real conversations with these people or are you just meeting them at adult conversation clubs where people blurt out canned phrases? |
Not talking about Koreans I mix with socially, if they were irritating, I wouldn't hang out with them. It's the adults I teach, train, test and have to socialize with occasionally for work. They're fine most of the time but they do have a tendency to trot out the old government propaganda where certain subjects are concerned. |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 2:20 am Post subject: |
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Steelrails wrote: |
edwardcatflap wrote: |
Stop it with the hyperbole. Who said anything about Koreans being awful people? Most Korean adults attitude towards K Pop is slightly irritating. I get slightly irritated when I'm talking to the 10th Korean adult in a row who tries to force me to be impressed by telling me K Pop is famous all over the world, when I know it isn't, and we both know it's not very good. Maybe they should
be more aware of the fact that exaggerating and boasting about your country's mediocre artistic achievements to foreigners is not going to endear you to them very much. That's all. |
I dunno, Mix1 was edging towards nastiness.
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Says the guy who wrote "blathering idiot" and "douchey" towards me. I just respond in kind. There's nothing "nasty" about hating a genre of music, but you can try to spin it that way if you want.
Also, as noted, nobody said anything about Koreans being "awful" people; that's more spin by you. I did like your guilt trip about how because they come from a war torn, poor era ... their pride in K-pop is justified. Sniff, sniff, yeah ok sure.
One of the reasons your posts get so annoying to respond to is the way you routinely twist stuff around. I never said anything about "All" Koreans or even "over 40" but you've got to throw that in there like I did, and then try to argue against it. It's either dishonest or negligent, not sure which one applies to you (both?)
And regarding your point that K-pop sells in other countries, well we know which countries those are; mostly Southeast Asia and China. These are countries that ALSO probably aren't as aware of the ripoff nature of the genre, and might not care anyway. But it doesn't take away from the fact that K-pop is still promoted as a "cultural export", when just about everything stylistically and culturally about it is ripped off.
Anyway, edwardcatflap pretty much summed up the point I was trying to make about adults and K-pop. So if you aren't getting it by now, read his post again. |
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Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009 Location: Earth, Solar System
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Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 5:47 am Post subject: |
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They're fine most of the time but they do have a tendency to trot out the old government propaganda where certain subjects are concerned. |
Fair enough. Not saying this is you, because of what you've written, but I get the feeling that some posters here "You know Kpop is now global music" as a passing line in adult conversation class and this gets turned into Korean adults all love Kpop and constantly go on and on about it. It's like some American saying "Yeah, we really try to respect our soldiers and veterans" and someone turning that into "All Americans are warmongers who want to bomb people into democracy, they don't even question it."
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But it doesn't take away from the fact that K-pop is still promoted as a "cultural export", when just about everything stylistically and culturally about it is ripped off. |
Speaking of ripped off music, I don't see you going out and condemning every other country and ethnicity that has ripped off the music African-Americans gave the world, you know, jazz, blues, rock, r&b, rap, and pop.
I don't care if some group in France or Chile or Nigeria or India or Thailand or wherever does their own pop, rap, or whatever. I don't care if they try to export it. It doesn't make me angry and think any less of the people. Maybe something's wrong with me, but I don't think that.
Please tell me you aren't one of those people who think someone is a better or worse human being based off of what kind of music they listen to. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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Fair enough. Not saying this is you, because of what you've written, but I get the feeling that some posters here "You know Kpop is now global music" as a passing line in adult conversation class and this gets turned into Korean adults all love Kpop and constantly go on and on about it. It's like some American saying "Yeah, we really try to respect our soldiers and veterans" and someone turning that into "All Americans are warmongers who want to bomb people into democracy, they don't even question it."
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Yeah Westerners are just making it all up for some reason. And Koreans don't really bang on about Dokdo or respecting old people or spicy food or four seasons either  |
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Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009 Location: Earth, Solar System
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Posted: Tue May 20, 2014 6:12 am Post subject: |
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edwardcatflap wrote: |
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Fair enough. Not saying this is you, because of what you've written, but I get the feeling that some posters here "You know Kpop is now global music" as a passing line in adult conversation class and this gets turned into Korean adults all love Kpop and constantly go on and on about it. It's like some American saying "Yeah, we really try to respect our soldiers and veterans" and someone turning that into "All Americans are warmongers who want to bomb people into democracy, they don't even question it."
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Yeah Westerners are just making it all up for some reason. And Koreans don't really bang on about Dokdo or respecting old people or spicy food or four seasons either  |
Not saying that since there is smoke, there isn't a fire. Just that its not the 4-alarm blaze that people might make it out to be. At least with Kpop, spicy food, and four seasons. Dokdo on the other hand... |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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Posted: Tue May 20, 2014 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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http://www.at40.com/top-40/chart/30940
The above, American Top 40, seems pretty diverse to me, not all bubblegum or instantly disposable product. Then of course you have all the other Top 40 charts for R&B, country, etc.
K-pop is popular with fairly much all demographics in Korea. Why? Just because.
Look at the celebrity talk shows. They always have several K-pop stars as guests. They are an integral part of what passes for entertainment in Korea, and they aren't going away. |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 4:34 am Post subject: |
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Steelrails wrote: |
Speaking of ripped off music, I don't see you going out and condemning every other country and ethnicity that has ripped off the music African-Americans gave the world, you know, jazz, blues, rock, r&b, rap, and pop.
I don't care if some group in France or Chile or Nigeria or India or Thailand or wherever does their own pop, rap, or whatever. I don't care if they try to export it. It doesn't make me angry and think any less of the people. Maybe something's wrong with me, but I don't think that.
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As has been made abundantly clear several times now, the DIFFERENCE is not just in the exporting, but in parading the blatant rip-offs as a "cultural export". If you aren't seeing any distinction, then yes, as you say, maybe there is something wrong with you.
As for the ripping off of African-American music, I make no mistake about where those sounds (primarily rhythmic) came from and how they have influenced all sorts of genres. I've already mentioned it here and on other treads and won't repeat it again for you. The short version is there is a difference between influence and blatant 1-1 copies trying to pass it off as your own. I'm guessing you won't see that distinction either and in fact will excuse the K-pop copying on every level.
Finally, if you like K-pop, no I don't really care and don't think it makes a person any worse. It does say something about taste and knowledge of music though. Who in their right mind would listen to the silly fake
K-versions over the real original deals unless they A) were Korean and/or B) didn't know any better?
I like a lot of questionable stuff too, including some really cutesy J-pop (much more tuneful than K-pop!). However, I ADMIT it that some of the music I like is garbage, but it's at least more original garbage than K-pop that's for sure.
K-pop is like copying all the worst elements of American pop and throwing it into a blender. You've got your cheese-rap verse, your over the top Michael Bolton wanna-be crooning that somehow hits all the notes that don't really fit, your N-Sync teeny bopper flavor, all the stolen samples you've heard a million times elsewhere, and the sound-almost-like that American hit choruses that were either stolen or changed just enough to avoid being sued.
I will not apologize for disliking this kind of "music".
Case closed. |
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Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009 Location: Earth, Solar System
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Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 5:12 am Post subject: |
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atwood wrote: |
http://www.at40.com/top-40/chart/30940
The above, American Top 40, seems pretty diverse to me, not all bubblegum or instantly disposable product. Then of course you have all the other Top 40 charts for R&B, country, etc.
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Dude, fully 70% of those acts if they were Korean and sang the exact same songs in Korean, you would call them K-Pop.
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Look at the celebrity talk shows. They always have several K-pop stars as guests. |
Fortunately, if I turn on Jimmy Fallon or Ellen back home I won't be inundated with pop act after pop act.
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but in parading the blatant rip-offs as a "cultural export". |
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The short version is there is a difference between influence and blatant 1-1 copies trying to pass it off as your own. I'm guessing you won't see that distinction either and in fact will excuse the K-pop copying on every level.
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Do Koreans need permission from Americans or you to make their own pop or rap songs?
Funny, when Australia or the UK has rock bands, we don't call it a rip off of American music. We call them rock bands from the UK or Australia. However when it comes to Koreans, there is a double standard and instead of them just being Korean pop groups to some people, they are "rip offs". And a good many of those songs you talk about were more than influence, they WERE straight up rip-offs.
Look, either British rock and rollers are "rip offs" too or people in every country can make pop, rap, and rock music without having it be a rip off. I vote for the second. British rock/rap/techno groups aren't ripping off American rock/rap/techno groups anymore than Kpop is ripping off of the pop genre.
And Kpop isn't marketing itself as the inventor of pop or rap, they are marketing it as "this is our take on pop and rap", the same way America markets its take on the pizza.
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It does say something about taste and knowledge of music though. Who in their right mind would listen to the silly fake
K-versions over the real original deals unless they A) were Korean and/or B) didn't know any better? |
People who care more about experiencing the emotions of the singer, primarily women. It's not so much about "new" or "original" for them, its about how it makes them feel. That's why they tend to buy CDs of someone singing a bunch of songs that they've heard a thousand times, but the persons voice or inflections brings out certain emotions.
And this is not to denigrate such a style of listening. I firmly believe that that constitutes 50% of what music is about.
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K-pop is like copying all the worst elements of American pop and throwing it into a blender. You've got your cheese-rap verse, your over the top Michael Bolton wanna-be crooning that somehow hits all the notes that don't really fit, your N-Sync teeny bopper flavor, all the stolen samples you've heard a million times elsewhere, and the sound-almost-like that American hit choruses that were either stolen or changed just enough to avoid being sued.
I will not apologize for disliking this kind of "music".
Case closed. |
And that's fine. That's why I don't like it much either. It's not really my thing. You shouldn't have to apologize for not liking it.
However, the fact is that your perception as to how widespread and enjoyed it is amongst the adult populace is very exaggerated. There are a bunch of people over 50 who have no clue who Big Bang is beyond the fact that their kid is always asking for crap with Big Bang's name on it. That's a serious chunk of the population and to be upset at them for liking Kpop, which is something they don't do, and I'm willing to bet a sizable number despise, is just really unfair and illogical. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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Steelrails wrote: |
atwood wrote: |
http://www.at40.com/top-40/chart/30940
The above, American Top 40, seems pretty diverse to me, not all bubblegum or instantly disposable product. Then of course you have all the other Top 40 charts for R&B, country, etc.
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Dude, fully 70% of those acts if they were Korean and sang the exact same songs in Korean, you would call them K-Pop.
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Look at the celebrity talk shows. They always have several K-pop stars as guests. |
Fortunately, if I turn on Jimmy Fallon or Ellen back home I won't be inundated with pop act after pop act.
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but in parading the blatant rip-offs as a "cultural export". |
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The short version is there is a difference between influence and blatant 1-1 copies trying to pass it off as your own. I'm guessing you won't see that distinction either and in fact will excuse the K-pop copying on every level.
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Do Koreans need permission from Americans or you to make their own pop or rap songs?
Funny, when Australia or the UK has rock bands, we don't call it a rip off of American music. We call them rock bands from the UK or Australia. However when it comes to Koreans, there is a double standard and instead of them just being Korean pop groups to some people, they are "rip offs". And a good many of those songs you talk about were more than influence, they WERE straight up rip-offs.
Look, either British rock and rollers are "rip offs" too or people in every country can make pop, rap, and rock music without having it be a rip off. I vote for the second. British rock/rap/techno groups aren't ripping off American rock/rap/techno groups anymore than Kpop is ripping off of the pop genre.
And Kpop isn't marketing itself as the inventor of pop or rap, they are marketing it as "this is our take on pop and rap", the same way America markets its take on the pizza.
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It does say something about taste and knowledge of music though. Who in their right mind would listen to the silly fake
K-versions over the real original deals unless they A) were Korean and/or B) didn't know any better? |
People who care more about experiencing the emotions of the singer, primarily women. It's not so much about "new" or "original" for them, its about how it makes them feel. That's why they tend to buy CDs of someone singing a bunch of songs that they've heard a thousand times, but the persons voice or inflections brings out certain emotions.
And this is not to denigrate such a style of listening. I firmly believe that that constitutes 50% of what music is about.
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K-pop is like copying all the worst elements of American pop and throwing it into a blender. You've got your cheese-rap verse, your over the top Michael Bolton wanna-be crooning that somehow hits all the notes that don't really fit, your N-Sync teeny bopper flavor, all the stolen samples you've heard a million times elsewhere, and the sound-almost-like that American hit choruses that were either stolen or changed just enough to avoid being sued.
I will not apologize for disliking this kind of "music".
Case closed. |
And that's fine. That's why I don't like it much either. It's not really my thing. You shouldn't have to apologize for not liking it.
However, the fact is that your perception as to how widespread and enjoyed it is amongst the adult populace is very exaggerated. There are a bunch of people over 50 who have no clue who Big Bang is beyond the fact that their kid is always asking for crap with Big Bang's name on it. That's a serious chunk of the population and to be upset at them for liking Kpop, which is something they don't do, and I'm willing to bet a sizable number despise, is just really unfair and illogical. |
Again with the fake statistics, herr G.
Anyone who watches Korean TV knows who Big Bang is and most people in Korea, especially once they retire, spend a lot of time watching TV. Your assumptions don't hold water.
I don't think anyone is upset with Koreans for liking K-pop, although one might criticize it as a symptom of knee-jerk nationalism. But I'd bet the older people you claim to despise either don't care much one way or another or are proud of K-pop's "international success."
As for American talk shows it won't be pop act after pop act (thank you for the exaggeration, herr G) and those acts will change over time. It's not nearly as formulaic as in Korea.
Phony statistics, phony baloney--if only we could eat your posts. We could feed the world. |
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Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009 Location: Earth, Solar System
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Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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Anyone who watches Korean TV knows who Big Bang is and most people in Korea, especially once they retire, spend a lot of time watching TV. |
Yes, because as any TV exec, advertising agent, or anyone else involved in broadcasting, will tell you that regardless of demographics, TV viewers all have the same preferences for programming, especially in the day of 100 channels on cable. 50 year old married female? Obviously has the same interests as a 22 year old single male.  |
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