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‘No Way To Prevent This' Says Only Nation Where This Happe
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Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Sat May 31, 2014 6:42 am Post subject:

Fox wrote:

Leon wrote:

I am curious how America would react if guns were banned or taken away.

I think it's safe to say that the level of threatened violence in response to an actual attempt to seize everyone's guns would be immensely higher. Sure, the government wouldn't be overthrown, but people would die, and not a few.

It all depends on how it goes down. If its the result of generations in erosion of popular support, and was done through a constitutional amendment, the response would be vastly different than say, a unilateral declaration by the government in the year 2015 with all of America's continuing social and criminal problems.

I mean, if suddenly overnight the American government decided to abolish guns by edict or simple congressional majority in the dead of night, I would regard that as deeply disturbing and likely the first step towards a coup/martial law. Obviously following such an act there would be some kind of enforcement measure which as I said, would likely involve near-destruction of the 4th Amendment, to say nothing of the whole process of amending the constitution. It would confirm every gun fanatic's worst fears and if it were to go down like that, those fears would probably be justified.

Quote:

The whole need to protect from tyranny argument is so false, an armed insurrection against D.C. would almost certainly fail. A non-violent revolution that has mass popular support and is well organized would have a much better chance of success

I pretty much agree with this. The idea that some gun nuts have of standing up to the government/military with the guns under their bed is laughable in the age of drones and modern militaries. Legislative action and popular protest is a far better deterrent to government tyranny in a relatively free democracy.

That being said, as I said above, if it happened in the dead of night by edict, that would certainly be for me personally, cause for grave concern. Even during times of extreme civil disturbances, the various governments within the US (local, state, federal) have never done anything like institute a total gun ban.

Kuros

Joined: 27 Apr 2004

Posted: Sat May 31, 2014 12:00 pm Post subject:

Leon wrote:

Kuros wrote:

KimchiNinja wrote:

Address supply and demand simultaneously, 1) pass laws making it illegal to own a gun, 2) cap production or shut down gun factories. Easy, done.

Bam, overnight it is illegal to own a gun.

Just like America did with narcotics and liquor!

I wish you luck, Elliot Ness.

This isn't a good analogy. You can't effectively make a gun and ammunition by yourself. It needs a factory, whereas drugs and booze are relatively easy to make. Where it would run into issues is the huge already existing supply.

Oh, I'm fine with restricting manufacturing. But KimchiNinja wants to make firearms themselves illegal. That's a direct attack on existing stock.

As to outright bans on manufacturing, it certainly conjures up images of prohibition:

Fox wrote:

The biggest obstacle to effective gun control in the future will probably be 3d printing. It will only get better and cheaper, and preventing people from printing guns will be more or less impossible.

Leon wrote:

I am curious how America would react if guns were banned or taken away. I wonder how many people would make good on their "from my cold dead fingers" stuff. The whole need to protect from tyranny argument is so false, an armed insurrection against D.C. would almost certainly fail. A non-violent revolution that has mass popular support and is well organized would have a much better chance of success, but then you can't shoot people and play with your toys and act out on silly fantasies.

Well, let's see. Its America. So, enforcement measures would be uneven and target these groups in the following order:

African-Americans

the Poor

Other minorities

Middle-class

. . . and that's where it would end. Your Isla Vista shooter would still get a firearm, because he's more privileged than all these groups.

Your dismissal of firearms as a valid protection against tyranny assumes that local police forces cannot enact tyrannies.

Yes, they can. Yes, they do.

Now is the wrong time to ban firearms. Its just the worst possible time to go so radically far when local, state, and federal government overreach has begun to accelerate.

Leon

Joined: 31 May 2010

Posted: Sat May 31, 2014 12:21 pm Post subject:

Kuros wrote:

Your dismissal of firearms as a valid protection against tyranny assumes that local police forces cannot enact tyrannies.

Yes, they can. Yes, they do.

Now is the wrong time to ban firearms. Its just the worst possible time to go so radically far when local, state, and federal government overreach has begun to accelerate.

Of course they can and do. The best way to combat the local form of tyranny is lawyers and judges rather than guns, especially when police shoot you up for reaching for a wallet- and even if you legitimately shoot a police officer in self defense the chances of getting a fair trial are slim. Your a lawyer, have you ever heard of someone shooting a policeman in self defense and being acquitted?

Kuros

Joined: 27 Apr 2004

Posted: Sat May 31, 2014 2:22 pm Post subject:

Leon wrote:

Kuros wrote:

Lawyers are pretty awesome.

But, here's the thing. The Supreme Court has neutered the 4th Amendment so that the relief for an invasive or unreasonable entry or search only results in the exclusion of evidence. This means that if you are totally innocent and there's no evidence to hide, there is no relief under the 4th Amendment and traditional tort remedies have been barred under sovereign immunity.

So, the best way to combat unreasonable police entry would be to threaten to shoot them in the face.

Leon

Joined: 31 May 2010

Posted: Sat May 31, 2014 2:37 pm Post subject:

Kuros wrote:

Leon wrote:

Kuros wrote:

If you say so. If someone makes that specific argument that guns can fight tyranny in America, I'll have nothing to say. That isn't the usual argument that is made, however.

Kuros

Joined: 27 Apr 2004

Posted: Sat May 31, 2014 3:04 pm Post subject:

Leon wrote:

Kuros wrote:

Leon wrote:

Kuros wrote:

If you say so. If someone makes that specific argument that guns can fight tyranny in America, I'll have nothing to say. That isn't the usual argument that is made, however.

What is the usual argument that is made? Is it a cypher for NRA corporate interests?

Look, I'm with you about 80% on the firearm regulation agenda. Nevertheless, the total and complete eradication of firearms is impossible in America. It does not matter what other countries have done, for right now, at this time, in America it would be impossible to outright ban firearms. Happily, we can decrease rampage deaths like the most recent one without totally banning firearms.

Leon

Joined: 31 May 2010

Posted: Sat May 31, 2014 3:44 pm Post subject:

Kuros wrote:

The usual argument made that private guns stop government tyranny isn't referring to local cops, but rather the federal government is what I mean. This narrative is completely false and silly.

I'm not arguing for the complete eradication of firearms, if that wasn't clear. I think it is completely impossible, impractical, etc. to do so in America. I'm just being cynical about weapons manufacturers and frustrated by the arguments put forth by certain segments of gun rights people. I think spree shooters are tragic, but a small issue compared to what our weapons do in places like Mexico and the fact that people don't realize that the massive aggregate demand that is created by the American market creates a flood of weapons to the point where getting one is cheap and easy. This is combined with the war on drugs where narcotics prices are massively inflated, combined with the facts that since they are illegal, and highly profitable, it is inevitable that criminal networks will form that can not go to court to deal with trade disputes.

Some quick and easy math, what happens when a good that has a vast, incredibly so, market where it is relatively easy to produce and has insane profit margins comes to places without legitimate alternatives to make money coupled with a vast legal and illegal supply of cheap, patriotic, American guns and ammo. The supply is so large, that even if gun stores did begin to better regulate themselves it wouldn't matter to the secondary market. People like to mention that Mexico only has one gun store, or that guns are illegal in Chicago, as if these places were islands. This is the issue, but the people dying are poor, from another country, the wrong race, etc. The spree shootings are disturbing tragedies, emotional, and a distraction that keeps everyone from talking about the real consequences.

KimchiNinja

Joined: 01 May 2012
Location: Gangnam

Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2014 6:04 pm Post subject:

Kuros wrote:

But KimchiNinja wants to make firearms themselves illegal.

For the record I don't "want" anything. Since I departed the USA and will never return I don't care, I just laugh with the rest of the world at their stupidity. As my Korean friends so elegantly put it "it's the guns you idiots!!".

I merely post examples of how to control the guns and thus limit death. Many different controls can work, none of which the USA is practicing.

ttompatz

Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea

Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2014 6:17 pm Post subject:

Have no fear. It was a big issue after Columbine. It died away. It was a big issue after Sandy Hook. It died away. It will die away this time too. It will repeat. It will be discussed. It will be decided that something should be done but that nothing can be done. It will fade away. It will repeat... .

KimchiNinja

Joined: 01 May 2012
Location: Gangnam

Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2014 6:40 pm Post subject:

^ LOL, accurate description of the macro-historic cycle.

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