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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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 Posted: Sat May 31, 2014 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Every person out late at night has been drinking larger quantities of soju? Stop projecting |
No, but certainly large numbers of them have. What, are you claiming they're all sober? Are you saying that alcohol consumption is as prevalent during the daytime as it is during nighttime?
| Quote: |
| And yea, more people are out at midnight in Seoul than there are at midday. Sorry, but that doesn't pass the smell test. |
Hongdae? Itaewon? Parts of Gangnam? Dongdaemun? Heck, some bar district in Gangseo or Jamsil. Dude, what planet are you on? Yes, certain parts of Seoul will be more busy during the day than during the night. What is important to note is the tendency in Korea for late-night activity and high rates of alcohol consumption. And as I said, its not just Seoul, its middle and small sized cities and towns as well.
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| You're not saying that Korea has a unique drinking culture, are you? That sure wold put a big hole in your other arguments--one so big that even a drunk could drive a semi through it. |
I'm not making any comments about culture, rather the number of late night businesses open, the propensity of them to have a large volume of their sales from alcohol, and the consumption rates for alcohol by Koreans. If you take two countries where all other things are equal and one has those things and the other does not, is it really shocking to find more pedestrian deaths in the one rather than the other?
Heck you could look at areas within Korea, say a part of Seoul that doesn't have many late night businesses open and catering to alcohol consumption and ones that do and you'll likely see a difference in their rate of pedestrian accidents.
Are you saying that alcohol and nighttime visibility DOESN'T increase the likelihood of accidents? |
Are you saying that drinking far beyond excess isn't a part of Korean culture? Are you saying Koreans are klowns?
It sure seems like it. Are you racist? |
Are you going to answer my questions?
I'm saying that the rate of alcohol consumption, which is documented, combined with the number of late night establishments and the degree to which late night activity takes place in Korea are likely contributing factors to the high number of pedestrian accidents. There is no judgment on culture or racism with that. It is pointing to mathematical rates of activities and their likely effect on other mathematical rates of activities. I'm not passing judgment on the people, I am merely trying to look at a cause and effect. One can explore an issue without resorting to bigoted pejoratives.
I have mentioned this before as to how to examine issues with Korea without being a bigot and how "apologists" have no personal issue when arguments are framed as such.
A) High rates of alcohol consumption and late night activity might be at least partially responsible for increased rates of pedestrian accidents.
vs.
B) Stupid Koreans are a bunch of boozers who engage in degenerate activity late into the night and have no awareness or concern and this stupidity leads to them dying left and right. They don't care about others' safety or their own.
Its not just what you write, its how you write it.
Why do I get the feeling that if someone had mentioned this, and I had denied it, that you would be taking me to task for denying that there is a high rate of alcohol consumption and late night activity? Its a variation on the "It doesn't matter if Koreans go left or right, they're wrong because they are Korean" argument. If I claim that Korea's accidents are partly due to a high rate of alcohol consumption and late night activity or if I were to deny that, either way I'd be wrong because I am Steelrails.
Is there something knee-jerk apologist about such an argument? I think its a pretty reasonable assumption to make. How is linking Korean alcohol consumption and pedestrian accidents some sort of knee-jerk apologist argument? |
That you're making it is evidence it's an apology.
You're trying to minimize the obvious reasons for Korea's ranking--selfish, inconsiderate drivers, oblivious pedestrians who have neither been taught nor learned how to cross the street safely and the general disdain for rule of law, a disdain you share. Certainly you remember posting how it's OK to run a red light when YOU think it's OK.
You want to put the blame on alcohol, not on the Koreans themselves, and you wanted to do that so badly that you claimed drinking in Korea is like drinking nowhere else, inadvertently painting a picture of a late-night Korea populated by almost nothing but drunken louts.
And how the heck can you post about mathematics when you don't have ANY statistics to support you conjectures? Show me your timeline! |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2014 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| While I agree with ya, SR, that's it's a very possible factor - I'm curious if you have any statistical links to back it up? I hate to sound morbid, but I wonder if there's an hourly breakdown of traffic accidents in Korea (?) |
Thanks Cap'n. I don't have any TUM-worthy links and sources at the ready. However, I think it is logical to infer that because Korea A)Has a disproportional amount of nighttime activity compared to other countries in the OECD and B) Has a disproportional amount of alcohol consumption, especially in hard liquor, that this inevitably leads to an increase in pedestrian accidents during those hours compared to other countries.
If not, then the opposite claim- That increased nighttime activity and drinking does NOT put people at increased risk for traffic accidents must be true and accepted. I think anyone would be hard pressed to believe that.
Alcohol and late night activity isn't the sole contributing factor, but I have a gut feeling that it's one heck of an aggravating one. I really wish there were some kind of statistics out there that could prove this one way or the other. Take a look at nighttime activity by hour, alcohol consumption, and then pedestrian deaths by hour and then compare Korea to other countries in those categories. I have a feeling that you would see a correlation in those numbers around the world.
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| Quote: |
| That you're making it is evidence it's an apology. |
So the validity of an argument is based upon who is saying it, not the actual content of the argument.
Critical Thinking Fail
| Quote: |
| You're trying to minimize the obvious reasons for Korea's ranking--selfish, inconsiderate drivers, oblivious pedestrians who have neither been taught nor learned how to cross the street safely |
Where did I ever say that those weren't a factor, especially in daytime accidents? I even explicitly stated that "crazy drivers" were much to blame for Korean daytime accidents and the above-average rate of deaths. I then combined that with nighttime activity and drinking to explain why they are number one.
Again, are you saying that nighttime activity and alcohol consumption are not factors?
| Quote: |
| the general disdain for rule of law, a disdain you share. Certainly you remember posting how it's OK to run a red light when YOU think it's OK. |
No, you didn't understand what I said when I made that point. I said that in the event that a driver is at a red light, that has no traffic going either way, that the driver should be able to come to a full stop and then proceed. The logic being that IF someone is trusted enough to be licensed, then they should be trusted enough to safely execute such a maneuver. If they ARE not trusted enough to safely execute such a maneuver, then they probably shouldn't have a license in the first place. I also proposed a tiered system of licenses and license plates that would enable drivers to possibly be permitted to do this and other actions.
| Quote: |
| You want to put the blame on alcohol, not on the Koreans themselves, and you wanted to do that so badly that you claimed drinking in Korea is like drinking nowhere else, inadvertently painting a picture of a late-night Korea populated by almost nothing but drunken louts. |
I want to find out what the reason is. I think alcohol consumption is a good place to start. I also think the sheer volume of human activity during nighttime, a time of reduced visibility, depth perception, and increased alcohol consumption is a likely factor. I think this would hold true around the world, not just in Korea. Heck, I think it would hold true simply in Korea.
Would it make you feel better if I said "Stupid Koreans need to drink less and stop hanging out in the wee hours and join the civilized world in going to bed at a decent hour. If they weren't getting blasted on soju and stumbling around at night, maybe they wouldn't be getting hit by cars so much."
If someone said that, a bunch of people would be cheering right along. However, I was raised and educated not to think or talk like that. That's how someone irrational, ignorant, and uneducated thinks and talks. We are college-educated adults here. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2014 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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| byrddogs wrote: |
| fezmond wrote: |
| why do you guys bother responding to steelrails? he's merely a troll wasting your time. |
I was enjoying where he was basically talking to himself earlier in the thread. Why did someone have to go and ruin that by responding? |
Byrddogs, why don't you take the advice everyone gives PatrickGHBusan and now that you're in another country, quit posting. At least Pat comes here to give advice and talk about Korea. A great number of your posts lately seem to revolve around me. While I'm happy that I've touched you to such a degree that even over in China you are bothering to log in here and chime in every time I post, I do find it...unsettling. |
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byrddogs
Joined: 19 Jun 2009
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2014 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| byrddogs wrote: |
| fezmond wrote: |
| why do you guys bother responding to steelrails? he's merely a troll wasting your time. |
I was enjoying where he was basically talking to himself earlier in the thread. Why did someone have to go and ruin that by responding? |
Byrddogs, why don't you take the advice everyone gives PatrickGHBusan and now that you're in another country, quit posting. At least Pat comes here to give advice and talk about Korea. A great number of your posts lately seem to revolve around me. While I'm happy that I've touched you to such a degree that even over in China you are bothering to log in here and chime in every time I post, I do find it...unsettling. |
Other than you no one has actually come out against my posting here. Why don't you step away as so many have suggested you should. You troll just for the sake of trying to stir up people and to satiate your inflated ego. Do you not agree with that?
Stop flattering yourself with that. I don't post often, unlike you and your diatribes. The people have spoken about you; why you choose to not listen is beyond me. Go away, you self proclaimed expert on everything. |
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byrddogs
Joined: 19 Jun 2009
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2014 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
You're trying to minimize the obvious reasons for Korea's ranking--selfish, inconsiderate drivers, oblivious pedestrians who have neither been taught nor learned how to cross the street safely and the general disdain for rule of law, a disdain you share. Certainly you remember posting how it's OK to run a red light when YOU think it's OK.
You want to put the blame on alcohol, not on the Koreans themselves, and you wanted to do that so badly that you claimed drinking in Korea is like drinking nowhere else, inadvertently painting a picture of a late-night Korea populated by almost nothing but drunken louts.
And how the heck can you post about mathematics when you don't have ANY statistics to support you conjectures? Show me your timeline! |
Isn't Rails on record saying that he drinks and drives just for the fun of it? That speaks volumes about his character. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2014 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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| byrddogs wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| byrddogs wrote: |
| fezmond wrote: |
| why do you guys bother responding to steelrails? he's merely a troll wasting your time. |
I was enjoying where he was basically talking to himself earlier in the thread. Why did someone have to go and ruin that by responding? |
Byrddogs, why don't you take the advice everyone gives PatrickGHBusan and now that you're in another country, quit posting. At least Pat comes here to give advice and talk about Korea. A great number of your posts lately seem to revolve around me. While I'm happy that I've touched you to such a degree that even over in China you are bothering to log in here and chime in every time I post, I do find it...unsettling. |
Other than you no one has actually come out against my posting here. Why don't you step away as so many have suggested you should. You troll just for the sake of trying to stir up people and to satiate your inflated ego. Do you not agree with that?
Stop flattering yourself with that. I don't post often, unlike you and your diatribes. The people have spoken about you; why you choose to not listen is beyond me. Go away, you self proclaimed expert on everything. |
You may not post often, but when you do, it is often about me. Glad I can make your day. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2014 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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Found one:
http://www.ccdailynews.com/sub_read.html?uid=406779§ion=sc3
Not Seoul but there in Chungbuk 5 pm has the most, followed by 11 am, 1 pm, 7 pm, 3 pm, and 9 am.
Another article:
http://www.ccdailynews.com/sub_read.html?uid=406779§ion=sc3
Accidents and the related costs in 2012 worked out to 1.9% of Korea's GDP / 10.6% of the country's budget, or $23.5 billion.
This one has some images showing stats for drunk driving accidents over the 2nd new year:
http://blog.naver.com/PostView.nhn?blogId=gopipopipo&logNo=120206201429
Almost all of those happen from 6 pm to to 4 am. The ones that result in death are usually after midnight to 4 am.
And from the Seoul Police accidents were down a bit from 2010 to 2011 in the first quarter compared to the year before (down around 10%). The most dangerous time?
시간별로는 야간시간대(18:00~22:00)가 사망사고가 가장 많이 발생(24.9%)하여 가장 위험한 것으로 나타났으며,
요일별로는 수(15.6%), 화(15.1%), 월요일(15.0%) 順으로 다발하여 주 초반에 사망사고가 많았던 것으로 나타났으며, 이는 주말 나들이 차량이 많지 않은 계절적 요인으로 분석되었다.
6 pm to 10 pm is the most dangerous time, with a quarter of incidents happening then. Wednesday had the most accidents, followed by Tuesday and then Monday. Weekends simply have fewer cars on the road.
Korea will probably be one of the first countries to adopt self-driving cars given the small size of the place. It'll be amazing to watch the accident rate drop to near zero (scooters are a different story). Should happen somewhat gradually though as first we're going to see cars that simply park themselves (Nissan is close to being done one that does just this), brake for the driver to avoid crashes, etc. until eventually there isn't anything left for the human behind the wheel to do. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2014 12:19 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| While I agree with ya, SR, that's it's a very possible factor - I'm curious if you have any statistical links to back it up? I hate to sound morbid, but I wonder if there's an hourly breakdown of traffic accidents in Korea (?) |
Thanks Cap'n. I don't have any TUM-worthy links and sources at the ready. However, I think it is logical to infer that because Korea A)Has a disproportional amount of nighttime activity compared to other countries in the OECD and B) Has a disproportional amount of alcohol consumption, especially in hard liquor, that this inevitably leads to an increase in pedestrian accidents during those hours compared to other countries.
If not, then the opposite claim- That increased nighttime activity and drinking does NOT put people at increased risk for traffic accidents must be true and accepted. I think anyone would be hard pressed to believe that.
Alcohol and late night activity isn't the sole contributing factor, but I have a gut feeling that it's one heck of an aggravating one. I really wish there were some kind of statistics out there that could prove this one way or the other. Take a look at nighttime activity by hour, alcohol consumption, and then pedestrian deaths by hour and then compare Korea to other countries in those categories. I have a feeling that you would see a correlation in those numbers around the world.
===============================================
| Quote: |
| That you're making it is evidence it's an apology. |
So the validity of an argument is based upon who is saying it, not the actual content of the argument.
Critical Thinking Fail
| Quote: |
| You're trying to minimize the obvious reasons for Korea's ranking--selfish, inconsiderate drivers, oblivious pedestrians who have neither been taught nor learned how to cross the street safely |
Where did I ever say that those weren't a factor, especially in daytime accidents? I even explicitly stated that "crazy drivers" were much to blame for Korean daytime accidents and the above-average rate of deaths. I then combined that with nighttime activity and drinking to explain why they are number one.
Again, are you saying that nighttime activity and alcohol consumption are not factors?
| Quote: |
| the general disdain for rule of law, a disdain you share. Certainly you remember posting how it's OK to run a red light when YOU think it's OK. |
No, you didn't understand what I said when I made that point. I said that in the event that a driver is at a red light, that has no traffic going either way, that the driver should be able to come to a full stop and then proceed. The logic being that IF someone is trusted enough to be licensed, then they should be trusted enough to safely execute such a maneuver. If they ARE not trusted enough to safely execute such a maneuver, then they probably shouldn't have a license in the first place. I also proposed a tiered system of licenses and license plates that would enable drivers to possibly be permitted to do this and other actions.
| Quote: |
| You want to put the blame on alcohol, not on the Koreans themselves, and you wanted to do that so badly that you claimed drinking in Korea is like drinking nowhere else, inadvertently painting a picture of a late-night Korea populated by almost nothing but drunken louts. |
I want to find out what the reason is. I think alcohol consumption is a good place to start. I also think the sheer volume of human activity during nighttime, a time of reduced visibility, depth perception, and increased alcohol consumption is a likely factor. I think this would hold true around the world, not just in Korea. Heck, I think it would hold true simply in Korea.
Would it make you feel better if I said "Stupid Koreans need to drink less and stop hanging out in the wee hours and join the civilized world in going to bed at a decent hour. If they weren't getting blasted on soju and stumbling around at night, maybe they wouldn't be getting hit by cars so much."
If someone said that, a bunch of people would be cheering right along. However, I was raised and educated not to think or talk like that. That's how someone irrational, ignorant, and uneducated thinks and talks. We are college-educated adults here. |
No, you're trying to apologize and, failing that, derail. You lost whatever little credibility you had on the ferry sinking threads and your efforts to exonerate the captain and crew. This is just more of the same.
I did get a chuckle out of your "tum-worthy" statistics line. The last tum sighting involved him giving statistics for international marriages in Korea and calling them inter-racial. And I believe he used statistics to show Koreans drank less than some other nationalities, an idea you objected to on this thread.
What you posted about running red lights was crystal clear. You're no LT so you can't spin your way out of it.
Besides, it's always obvious when you're in the wrong. You get more unctous than Eddie Haskell trying to wheedle an extra cookie out of June Cleaver. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2014 2:14 am Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
Found one:
http://www.ccdailynews.com/sub_read.html?uid=406779§ion=sc3
Not Seoul but there in Chungbuk 5 pm has the most, followed by 11 am, 1 pm, 7 pm, 3 pm, and 9 am.
Another article:
http://www.ccdailynews.com/sub_read.html?uid=406779§ion=sc3
Accidents and the related costs in 2012 worked out to 1.9% of Korea's GDP / 10.6% of the country's budget, or $23.5 billion.
This one has some images showing stats for drunk driving accidents over the 2nd new year:
http://blog.naver.com/PostView.nhn?blogId=gopipopipo&logNo=120206201429
Almost all of those happen from 6 pm to to 4 am. The ones that result in death are usually after midnight to 4 am.
And from the Seoul Police accidents were down a bit from 2010 to 2011 in the first quarter compared to the year before (down around 10%). The most dangerous time?
시간별로는 야간시간대(18:00~22:00)가 사망사고가 가장 많이 발생(24.9%)하여 가장 위험한 것으로 나타났으며,
요일별로는 수(15.6%), 화(15.1%), 월요일(15.0%) 順으로 다발하여 주 초반에 사망사고가 많았던 것으로 나타났으며, 이는 주말 나들이 차량이 많지 않은 계절적 요인으로 분석되었다.
6 pm to 10 pm is the most dangerous time, with a quarter of incidents happening then. Wednesday had the most accidents, followed by Tuesday and then Monday. Weekends simply have fewer cars on the road.
Korea will probably be one of the first countries to adopt self-driving cars given the small size of the place. It'll be amazing to watch the accident rate drop to near zero (scooters are a different story). Should happen somewhat gradually though as first we're going to see cars that simply park themselves (Nissan is close to being done one that does just this), brake for the driver to avoid crashes, etc. until eventually there isn't anything left for the human behind the wheel to do. |
Thanks for the very informative info, man! |
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Jane
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2014 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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I may be over-vigilant nowadays when walking the streets. In my time in Korea, I have seen 3 separate people get mowed right over by cars, in addition to countless hit pedestrians who survived. It's like a movie clip that the mind doesn't forget, even as time passes by.
What brings it home though is the spray-painted body outline in the small intersection by my house. What makes it even more tragic is it's child size. Everyday I pass it, my heart gets heavy, but it's a daily reminder to keep my eyes and ears open.  |
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KimchiNinja
Joined: 01 May 2012
Location: Gangnam
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| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Jane wrote: |
| ...but it's a daily reminder to keep my eyes and ears open. |
Indeed, it's like the video game Frogger.
...but you don't get another quarter if you lose. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 2:29 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| You lost whatever little credibility you had on the ferry sinking threads and your efforts to exonerate the captain and crew. |
I'm sorry you are too stupid to understand the concept of "Guilty of charges 1 and 2, but possibly innocent of charge number 3".
| Quote: |
| What you posted about running red lights was crystal clear. You're no LT so you can't spin your way out of it. |
Then why don't you pull up a direct quote about it. You never do that in all these "claims" about what I've said. It's always your retelling of it, never the actual quote. That's why we have a quote function. That is why I use the quote function. |
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Old Painless
Joined: 01 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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Most of you are jealous of Korean culture. That's why you complain so much. Korean culture is more refined and greater than yours.  |
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cj1976
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| There is no need to argue and pull up lists of statistics. We all know Korean can't drive. I have to shout and give the bird to idiots every day. They need to make the driving tests more difficult and enforce the law here. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| You lost whatever little credibility you had on the ferry sinking threads and your efforts to exonerate the captain and crew. |
I'm sorry you are too stupid to understand the concept of "Guilty of charges 1 and 2, but possibly innocent of charge number 3".
| Quote: |
| What you posted about running red lights was crystal clear. You're no LT so you can't spin your way out of it. |
Then why don't you pull up a direct quote about it. You never do that in all these "claims" about what I've said. It's always your retelling of it, never the actual quote. That's why we have a quote function. That is why I use the quote function. |
So you're going to continue defending the captain and crew? Funny that a person who never learns is in the education biz.
If you want to take the time and pull up your old posts, have at it. But everyone who read that thread knows you posted that you thought it was OK to run red lights.
Now here you are defending Korean driving and pedestrian habits by blaming it all on the demon alcohol.
And let's not forget those pedestrians who protest drivers failing to obey the rules of the road with a yell, a thumping of a rear vehicle panel or, God forbid, throwing a coin or two at the offending vehicle. You almost went into hysterics trying to show how dangerous such activities were, claiming that they were bound to give older rivers heart attacks or strokes. All to defend your right to run red lights.
And now you're back at it: "It's the ALCOHOL!" NOWHERE else in the world do they drink like they do in Korea." But CULTURE has nothing to do with it, or anything else that happens in Korea, for that matter."
I give you credit though, herr G, for audacity. You calling anyone "stupid" rates right up there. |
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