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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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 Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| You are seriously trying to argue that the wealth they generate has not positively helped you and the country? |
The point I was getting at is would the UK have been worse or better off had it not allowed mass immigration? I think that is a debatable point. It's certainly brought both benefits and negative effects. I think this should be discussed without resorting to hyperbole about 'tremendous contributions.' For example, while Indians and Chinese have probably been net contributors, in economic terms, the same might not be the case for others, like Jamaicans or Bengalis.
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| Your Breivik-esque admiration of Korea and Japan might take a beating when you start to read their news. |
Nice attempt to smear me by association with a mass murderer. Hitler can't be too far behind! Remind me, what percentage of the Korean population is non-ethnic Korean? How many non-ethnic Koreans are granted citizenship each year? It's tiny, and I would be very surprised if the Koreans relax their immigration laws and allow in millions of foreigners.
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| They are doing this because they know that an that an ageing population will ruin their prospects of maintaining economic growth in the long term. |
Korea's much-vaunted and overstated 'multiculturalism' is mostly a result of poor farmers marrying young SE Asian women. It is not a policy that has been actively promoted by the government, though Korea's immigration and nationality laws have been relaxed. Nevertheless, they do not allow for mass immigration and settlement of foreigners, unlike in the West.
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| The Netherlands, Belgium, Israel, South Korea and Japan all have a much higher population density than the UK. |
Most immigrants move to England, which is the most densely populated country in Europe.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2530125/This-worryingly-crowded-isle-England-officially-Europes-densely-packed-country.html
Perhaps, under your scheme of regional wealth distribution, you can persuade immigrants to move to Wales, Scotland, or Cumbria, but I think that might be an uphill struggle.
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| Eventually the number of politicians willing to risk losing an election to satisfy the anti-immigration brigade are going to reduce to zero. |
Ironically, most opinion polls show that even ethnic minorities want stricter immigration controls. The vast majority of the population want immigration brought under control. And certainly very few support your absurd position of adding an additional 10 million.
For the record, I do not want zero immigration. If we truly have a need for skilled immigrants, then they should be welcomed. I think this need has been vastly overstated, mostly by big business seeking cheap foreign labour. |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:49 am Post subject: |
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| The point I was getting at is would the UK have been worse or better off had it not allowed mass immigration? I think that is a debatable point. It's certainly brought both benefits and negative effects. I think this should be discussed without resorting to hyperbole about 'tremendous contributions.' For example, while Indians and Chinese have probably been net contributors, in economic terms, the same might not be the case for others, like Jamaicans or Bengalis. |
I agree that hyperbole has no place in this debate so please stop trying to reduce the contribution of immigrants to the UK to 'dining options'.
The ugly truth is that when it comes to 'drains' on the country and its finances the main culprit is the British people. We have vast numbers of economically inactive, poorly educated, unskilled citizens who contribute little if anything to wider society.
If you are like me and support a large welfare state you will have to accept that immigrants are essential for helping the rest of the country.
It is thanks to immigrants, who tend to be younger, have better qualifications and produce more children, that the rest of the country can continue to function.
And yes that includes West Indians and Bengalis.
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| Nice attempt to smear me by association with a mass murderer. Hitler can't be too far behind! Remind me, what percentage of the Korean population is non-ethnic Korean? How many non-ethnic Koreans are granted citizenship each year? It's tiny, and I would be very surprised if the Koreans relax their immigration laws and allow in millions of foreigners. |
You have to admit that the anti-immigration brigade does seem to wheel out the usual suspects in this debate.
At the moment they both still have modest immigrant communities because they haven't yet begun to feel the effect of a declining population.
In the case of Korea, they will hit peak labour force in 2016 and yet at the same time the immigrant community has greatly increased. It is not hard to imagine how much further that will continue to expand when an export led economy such as Korea starts to suffer from a shrinking and ageing labour force.
You are ignoring the fact that in both Korea and Japan immigration is increasingly being seen as a possible cure for the demorgraphic timebomb that has dominated the political agenda for years.
If you throw in the increased demands for ever greater public spendig on welfare in both countries, it is easy to see why concerns about low birth rates and an ageing society have become so commonplace.
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| Korea's much-vaunted and overstated 'multiculturalism' is mostly a result of poor farmers marrying young SE Asian women. It is not a policy that has been actively promoted by the government, though Korea's immigration and nationality laws have been relaxed. Nevertheless, they do not allow for mass immigration and settlement of foreigners, unlike in the West. |
I accept that countries like Korea and Japan might indeed try to have their cake and eat it too. They will invite ever greater numbers of migrant workers on short term 3 year visas to fill the ever widening gaps and make it nigh on impossible to get citzenship.
Britain will not do that though because a) We are an EU member and b) We as a people are far too soft hearted.
Bringing in immigrants to fill essential labour shortages and then tossing them out again after they have built a life would cause an outcry. It would offend our typically British sense of fairplay.
The Koreans and Japanese do tend to be a little more hard headed about these things and that is the most generous explanation I can give for their attitudes.
England is not a country...look at your passport.
I will overlook the fact that you linked the daily fail and ask why you chose England and not the UK? Was it because there are around 50 countries in the world that are more densely populated than the UK? Or was it because if you broke it down by region the population density of all the regions outside London would not be particularly densely populated?
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| Ironically, most opinion polls show that even ethnic minorities want stricter immigration controls. The vast majority of the population want immigration brought under control. And certainly very few support your absurd position of adding an additional 10 million. |
Depends how you frame the question.
Just as most people would vote for things such as the death penalty being reintroduced, they would change their minds if you added how much it was going to cost.
In the same way when we talk about immigration most people would probably say "We are full". However, less people would oppose immigration if they factored in how much money it generates and how damanging it would be if we curtailed the numbers significantly.
In anycase whether people want it or not matters little. There is no way to stop EU migrants whilst being a member state of the EU. Similarly, they have made it more difficult, but UK based immigrant communities from outside Europe will still have the means to set their relatives up with jobs and bring wives over.
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| For the record, I do not want zero immigration. If we truly have a need for skilled immigrants, then they should be welcomed. I think this need has been vastly overstated, mostly by big business seeking cheap foreign labour. |
What if the need for immigrants was such that 10s of thousands were needed? Without immigrants we would be heading to a situation where businesses would out of necessity need to look abroad to fill large gaps.
You can oppose large scale immigration until you are blue in the face, one way or another immigrants will be drafted in to maintain our standard of living. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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| We have vast numbers of economically inactive, poorly educated, unskilled citizens who contribute little if anything to wider society. |
So, are we just going to continue accepting this state of affairs, or are we actually going to try and improve it and enact serious education and welfare reform?
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| If you are like me and support a large welfare state you will have to accept that immigrants are essential for helping the rest of the country. |
I think the welfare state we have is unsustainable in its present form, and I don't really know what you mean by 'helping the rest of the country.' Many of the immigrants entering the country are low-skilled workers doing jobs that should be done by British workers, though I accept that many eastern Europeans are actually better educated and have a much better work ethic.
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| It is thanks to immigrants, who tend to be younger, have better qualifications and produce more children, that the rest of the country can continue to function. |
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| And yes that includes West Indians and Bengalis. |
How do other countries, like Finland, Japan, and Korea continue to 'function' with much lower levels of immigration? Doesn't this prove that immigration is largely unneccesary? Btw, West Indians and Bengalis do worse than white British in almost every social indicator.
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| You are ignoring the fact that in both Korea and Japan immigration is increasingly being seen as a possible cure for the demorgraphic timebomb that has dominated the political agenda for years. |
Only by a small section of people in political and academic circles. It would face huge opposition from the populace. I also expect that as the drawbacks of multiculturalism in places like Europe become more apparent (eg immigrant riots), it will become even less popular.
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| The Koreans and Japanese do tend to be a little more hard headed about these things and that is the most generous explanation I can give for their attitudes. |
They still have some common sense, a healthy sense of self-preservation, and can't be guilt-tripped with hysteria about racism. They can see the benefits of living in a basically homogeneous country.
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| I will overlook the fact that you linked the daily fail and ask why you chose England and not the UK? |
Because immigration affects England, and barely impacts the rest of the UK. Almost all immigrants come to England, and it is its people who have to suffer its negative impacts. Scotland is about as multicultural as Korea.
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| However, less people would oppose immigration if they factored in how much money it generates and how damanging it would be if we curtailed the numbers significantly. |
It has little positive impact for natives economically and it would be a positive thing if we curtailed it significantly. People have heard all the spurious arguments in favour of immigration and they don't believe them anymore. Across Europe, they will continue to vote for parties opposed to this very unpopular demographic experiment. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:51 am Post subject: |
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| aq8knyus wrote: |
England is not a country...look at your passport. |
According to this England is in fact a constituent country of the United Kingdom? I don't personally know anything about this, but I'm curious. Does the average Englishman really not consider England a country? |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 11:52 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| aq8knyus wrote: |
England is not a country...look at your passport. |
According to this England is in fact a constituent country of the United Kingdom? I don't personally know anything about this, but I'm curious. Does the average Englishman really not consider England a country? |
Everyone is different and depending on where you live answers would vary.
There is no English parliament or any government body that deals exclusively with England. Strangely certain issues relating to Northern Ireland or Scotland cannot be voted on by English MPs, but Scottish and Northern Irish MPs can vote on all issues even if they only effect England.
England is 84% of the population and is where the vast majority of the wealth originates. If England modernised its realtionship with the UK in the same way that Scotland, Wales and NI did after 1999 then it would destabilize the union.
For example who would be more powerful, the Prime Minster of the UK or the First Minister of England? |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| So, are we just going to continue accepting this state of affairs, or are we actually going to try and improve it and enact serious education and welfare reform? |
No amount of reform is going to solve the problem of a hugely expanding over 65 population and an ever shrinking tax paying labour force.
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| I think the welfare state we have is unsustainable in its present form, and I don't really know what you mean by 'helping the rest of the country.' Many of the immigrants entering the country are low-skilled workers doing jobs that should be done by British workers, though I accept that many eastern Europeans are actually better educated and have a much better work ethic. |
It won't be unsustainable so long as the tax base is sufficiently large.
This is why when you talk about public opinion it is not as simple as you make out.
You know as well as I do that the NHS and the more fundamental benefits that people get are supported with a religious zeal. If significantly curtailing non-EU immigration meant difficulties in maintaing essential public services and the ability to pay for such services, immigration would become far more popular.
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| How do other countries, like Finland, Japan, and Korea continue to 'function' with much lower levels of immigration? Doesn't this prove that immigration is largely unneccesary? Btw, West Indians and Bengalis do worse than white British in almost every social indicator. |
You are ignoring the fact that none of those countries have yet to feel the effect of an ageing society. I pointed out in my last post that Korea hasn't yet reached their peak labour force. However, we can already see in both Korea and Japan that immigration is increasingly been seen as the solution.
Abe himself has advocated vastly increasing the number of immigrants coming to Japan.
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| Only by a small section of people in political and academic circles. It would face huge opposition from the populace. I also expect that as the drawbacks of multiculturalism in places like Europe become more apparent (eg immigrant riots), it will become even less popular. |
Rivers of blood are always predicted and yet have continually failed to materialize or have been small and rare occurances.
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| They still have some common sense, a healthy sense of self-preservation, and can't be guilt-tripped with hysteria about racism. They can see the benefits of living in a basically homogeneous country. |
Self-preservation?
Do you view immigration to the UK as a threat to the preservation of British culture and society?
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| Because immigration affects England, and barely impacts the rest of the UK. Almost all immigrants come to England, and it is its people who have to suffer its negative impacts. Scotland is about as multicultural as Korea. |
You cannot just pick which parts of the country you want to compare when every other country in the list has its density measured on a national basis.
We live in the UK and in comparison with other countries we are not especially densely populated.
Of course if you only include the parts of the country where most people live then yes density will increase. However, if you did the same with Germany and excluded the Black Forest and only referenced the Rhine Valley you could fiddle the figures to make them appear more densely populated.
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| It has little positive impact for natives economically and it would be a positive thing if we curtailed it significantly. People have heard all the spurious arguments in favour of immigration and they don't believe them anymore. Across Europe, they will continue to vote for parties opposed to this very unpopular demographic experiment. |
They will vote and they will fail.
The Tories promised to drastically reduce immigration...the figures went up.
Remember you cannot stop the EU migrants and the non-EU migrants have enough in country contacts in established immigrant communities that make reducing their numbers impossible.
Figures will only go down once the Eastern European countries have developed and then we will see the numbers of people coming to the UK drop significantly. |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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robbie_davies
Joined: 16 Jun 2013
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Big Verne, an immigrant in Korea - enforcing 'multi-culturalism' on the Koreans. What can someone like him be called? |
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Chaparrastique
Joined: 01 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:50 am Post subject: |
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| aq8knyus wrote: |
| when it comes to 'drains' on the country and its finances the main culprit is the British people. We have vast numbers of economically inactive, poorly educated, unskilled citizens who contribute little if anything to wider society |
That is certainly true. White British people, many with criminal records and an inclination to be idle- fill the council estates anywhere outside of London.
Its not about race.
| RobbieDavies wrote: |
| Big Verne, an immigrant in Korea - enforcing 'multi-culturalism' on the Koreans |
The irony hadn't escaped me either. There have been several people on here who make a living thanks to Korean hospitality yet would deny foreigners doing the same in their home country.
Multiculturalism is not the problem, its the spread of islam. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:58 am Post subject: |
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| If BigVerne here is like most English teachers, he'll be on an E2 visa, which means he'll be here as long as he continues to have a job which would be reasonably difficult to fill using local labor, and after that he'll go home in accordance with the law. I think it's fair to say that's a far cry from the particular brand of immigration with which he's taking issue. Alternatively, he may be married to a local, which puts him on a path to integration; his children would be both genetically and culturally related to the natives, and could be expected to fit in with society fairly well. In neither case do I think he's being particularly hypocritical here, especially since he's acknowledged that certain immigrant ethnic groups have been net contributors to his own home country. |
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robbie_davies
Joined: 16 Jun 2013
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 4:41 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| If BigVerne here is like most English teachers, he'll be on an E2 visa, which means he'll be here as long as he continues to have a job which would be reasonably difficult to fill using local labor, and after that he'll go home in accordance with the law. I think it's fair to say that's a far cry from the particular brand of immigration with which he's taking issue. Alternatively, he may be married to a local, which puts him on a path to integration; his children would be both genetically and culturally related to the natives, and could be expected to fit in with society fairly well. In neither case do I think he's being particularly hypocritical here, especially since he's acknowledged that certain immigrant ethnic groups have been net contributors to his own home country. |
But there are a lot of Koreans who don't want him there, his Korean equivalent more than likely thinks that a computer is just as capable of doing his job and the main factor is that he thinks it is right to pick and choose wherever in the world to live because of his first world status and education.
If he was some third world Ugandan, he would be under the Eurostar trying to get to London - as would I - just don't be a hypocrite about it, there by the grace of God go I and all that.
And as he is in Korea as the youth 'brain drain' continues out of the UK - immigrants are needed to take our jobs and fill the gaps we and many others have left, especially in the health, agricultural and hospitality industries.
If he cared, he would be back in the UK doing his bit instead being a typical British expat hypocrite. |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 5:47 am Post subject: |
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| Bringing a debate to the personal usually signals an inability to defend an idea. |
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robbie_davies
Joined: 16 Jun 2013
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 6:11 am Post subject: |
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| Titus wrote: |
| Bringing a debate to the personal usually signals an inability to defend an idea. |
What nonsense, it happens in politics all the time.
Politician is hard on drug control and is found smoking crack cocaine, what happens?
Politician is hard on illegal immigration and employs illegal immigrants on the cheap to fix up his house and gardens, what happens?
Politicians demand cuts to public spending but steal and defraud from taxpayers money, what happens?
The three examples have been in the past few years and are well documented, no-one likes a hypocrite.  |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 6:31 am Post subject: |
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| What nonsense, it happens in politics all the time. |
That does not weaken my position. |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 6:36 am Post subject: |
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| There is no labor shortage in the UK generally or England specifically. If there were wages would be rising at a furious pace. |
The reason for that is because we have had a pretty high rate of net immigration into the country.
We are not discussing a future possibility, large scale immigration has been progressing for many years and it is completely irreversible. |
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