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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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 Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:05 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
Obviously, you don't understand, for instance, freedom and its relationship to money in a capitalistic society.
Has a state trooper ever pulled you over for being one MPH over the speed limit? What do you think are the chances of that happening? Use some of that tertiary thinking you're so proud of. |
DWB? My ex-roommate, a Detroit firefighter (with union decal on his rear window) was pulled over every time he drove into Rochester Hills to party at our friend's house. The cops were polite enough but everyone knew what the deal was. Show em your shield and then you'll be on your way unmolested, but it still sucks to have to go through that.
I don't know anyone in Korea who has gotten pulled over for Driving While Waygook. I do know a bunch of times people have played the foreigner card and regulatory-type people giving them a pass. |
Every time? They didn't learn to identify his vehicle after a stop or two? That doesn't pass the smell test. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:07 am Post subject: |
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| KimchiNinja wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
| All it would mean is a few people have to wait a bit longer. (Granted, Koreans tend not to be very good at waiting, but they could learn.) |
...or we could keep getting our chicken dinner delivery on time.
I vote for that option, as do all the Koreans. You guys lose. |
I'd say the delivery guy with his brains splattered all over the asphalt is the loser.
Or maybe he's just a sacrifice so the tribe can feast. |
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KimchiNinja
Joined: 01 May 2012
Location: Gangnam
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:16 am Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
I'd say the delivery guy with his brains splattered all over the asphalt is the loser.
Or maybe he's just a sacrifice so the tribe can feast. |
Exactly!! Acceptable losses, it's part of life.
A tiny percent of the population who don't look where they are going will die every year, but businesses will do better, taxis will get there sooner, and we will get our 22 chicken hot. Sure, Koreans could turn everything into a dysfunctional grind like in the USA, but that is not their way. Functionality! |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:16 am Post subject: |
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| KimchiNinja wrote: |
Been harassed in the city, suburbs, country, while camping, while on a boat, when driving over boarder, when flying in/out. It doesn't matter where you are, if you are white collar straight, or a tattooed face weirdo, you are a suspect and deserve to have your rights violated, just to be safe!!!
How awesome, I guess I should respect that right? |
I have never been harassed by the police in the U.S., never had my rights violated and I lived there a lot longer than you and probably anyone else here and as anyone on this board can attest to I don't mince words so if anyone was going to get hassled it would be me.
You sound like the typical Korean who goes overseas and when they aren't treated like a princess they start crying about discrimination and harassment. Somebody asks you for ID and you cry your rights are being violated.
You ought to put away your dolls and grow up.
I have to say, though, the image of a patrol car driving up to your tent and strip searching you while they ransack your goods for marshmellows whose sell date has passed is a funny one. Maybe they could work that into the Korean SNL.
But more than likely what happened is that you were violating park regulations and got busted and you're still sore about it. Sorry you can't treat a U.S. national park the way you treat them in Korea, i.e., a garbage dump. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:21 am Post subject: |
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| KimchiNinja wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
I'd say the delivery guy with his brains splattered all over the asphalt is the loser.
Or maybe he's just a sacrifice so the tribe can feast. |
Exactly!! Acceptable losses, it's part of life.
A tiny percent of the population who don't look where they are going will die every year, but businesses will do better, taxis will get there sooner, and we will get our 22 chicken hot. Sure, Koreans could turn everything into a dysfunctional grind like in the USA, but that is not their way. Functionality! |
Then why is productivity higher in the U.S.?
You sure are jealous of the U.S. I bet the U.S. defeat of Ghana has got you choking on your fried chicken.
And if you want some good chicken, you need to head to Costco. It's amazing how much meatier those chicken wings are than the ones the Korean chicken shacks serve up. |
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optik404
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:24 am Post subject: |
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| So basically if you've ever been harassed by US cops, you were doing something wrong and deserved it. |
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KimchiNinja
Joined: 01 May 2012
Location: Gangnam
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:27 am Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
I have never been harassed by the police in the U.S., never had my rights violated... |
Atwood, you are kinda a weird person. LOL.
By the way I'm American, caucasian, and a normal white-collar law abiding citizen. And I pay a hella lot of taxes (or did when I lived there). You don't think "yeee haw" country police/rangers bust into camps just for the fun of messing with people? I'm your imaginary world that never happens? Police are just these wonderful people doing their job, and nothing more, no unnecessary use for power for kicks??
Seriously dude. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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KimchiNinja
Joined: 01 May 2012
Location: Gangnam
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:33 am Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
I bet the U.S. defeat of Ghana has got you choking on your fried chicken.
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This might be a sports reference, I don't watch sports. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 5:43 am Post subject: |
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| KimchiNinja wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
I bet the U.S. defeat of Ghana has got you choking on your fried chicken.
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This might be a sports reference, I don't watch sports. |
You're not a red devil? Nobody's going to deliver chicken to a traitor to the cause. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:03 am Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
Every time? They didn't learn to identify his vehicle after a stop or two? That doesn't pass the smell test. |
Because he only went once every couple of months until our friend moved out of there. Maybe like, 5 times. And at different times of the day. It's not like it's the same old sheriff and his deputy. Different cops and long times in between. Yes, cops in America pull you over for being black. Korean cops do not.
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orry, man. We disagree on this - and if you had a toddler at your side, you'd probably look at it differently too.
This city would not grind to a halt, there are many workarounds that are very feasible - and have been discussed in previous threads.
Instead of a motorcycle driving down the side walk to deliver goods (and lets be honest, they also drive down the sidewalk to circumvent traffic/lights), they could park against the curb. Heck, in major commercial areas, a 1/2 meter indent could be made in the curb to allow parking for them.
corner?
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As for a family, it depends. If my family's source of income is an office job or a teaching job, I might be inclined to agree. However if one's livelihood was dependent on me being a truck driver, chicken shop owner, or some other industry, you might have a different view.
Also, it all depends on how strict we are. Certainly we could take on cars parking on sidewalks. And we could ticket scooter drivers who blast along the sidewalk at insane speeds. However, if say we went after people loading and unloading goods and making deliveries and severely punishing them, then yes, things would dramatically slow down. Where exactly are these vehicles going to park for some of these businesses? How are they going to physically transport materiel from their truck parked a half a kilometer down the way? You think a scooter out of control is bad, how about some 300kg out of control object rolling down one of Seoul's many hilly sidewalks because instead of parking next to its destination the driver has to park far away and dolly it over?
What enforcement mechanism are we going to have? Heavy fines? Suspending licenses? Do you think such a system would be sustainable?
I think we have to draw a line between the exigencies of commerce and what would amount to a logistical breakdown/police state. Would you get under control traffic or just every single driver having a suspended license? Could deliveries still be made in a timely and affordable fashion under a strict system? Given Seoul and much of Korea's road and traffic conditions, and parking availability, I'm not sure it's feasible.
I think tackling the worst of the scooter speeders and people who just park a normal car is about the best one can do. Either that or invest SERIOUS tax dollars into reworking the roads so as to enable bike/scooter lanes and basically declaring everyone's store front a driveway and thus acceptable to cut across a sidewalk. The amount of tax money would be taken away from other things like education, health care, social security, etc.
I'd like to hear how commerce will be able to continue at a great many of these stores if they are unable to have delivery trucks park directly in front of them and either take up a lane or move on the sidewalk. I certainly think the sheer scale of businesses affected would mean such an undertaking would not be confined to a few stores. We all know Korea's streets. The only other option that I could see is deliveries being made at midnight or something like that, but then people would complain about the noise/Korean's working to long/Korean's being away from their families at work.
But I do agree that things can get better and that the status quo is unacceptable. But I disagree that certain things can be easily solved and would work themselves out with minimal disruption. The physical realities of Seoul's streets and business locations trump any ideological vision for extremely orderly, yet economically feasible enforcement. Perhaps investing in traffic safety education, helmet laws, and stricter driver education and training might prove more efficient at reducing accidents.
| Quote: |
| I forget though. You're the same guy that figures "good" drivers should be able to go through red lights. You seem to have this fallacy that "good" drivers will drive safely on sidewalks as well - sorry, man. But that does not jive with what I see every day. "Good" is not rewarded. Fast is. |
Captain Corea that is NOT what I said. I said they should be able to treat them as 4-way stops. That is NOT the same thing. Please understand the significance of that distinction. I also mentioned that this wouldn't be at ALL stop lights and perhaps active only during certain hours.
Which determines road safety conditions?
A) The color of the light
B) The traffic conditions at the time
Who is better equipped to determine what is safe?
A) The light
B) The driver
We have traffic lights to regulate the flow of traffic and that's fine. But when the light ceases to efficiently do that, there is no reason that a driver with a good track record of safety shouldn't be able to override the judgment of the light and proceed after ensuring all things are safe.
But yes, I proposed a plan that would enable a driver after a period of accident and violation-free driving to have certain privileges such as perhaps being able to treat certain red lights as four way stops or perhaps having an extra 5-10 mph on their speed limit on the highway. Giving people rewards for achieving certain goals and inspiring them to attain them is certainly a method to consider when attempting to solve things such as traffic accidents. You cannot bring about traffic safety through a purely punitive approach. We should not be afraid to consider new and creative ideas to encourage driver safety. Now, there are undoubtedly some flaws in the details, but I don't think the idea is so outlandish as to warrant a flippant dismissal. Or is the answer to traffic safety "More tickets, More expensive tickets, More cops"? |
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Stain
Joined: 08 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:36 am Post subject: |
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| KimchiNinja wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
I bet the U.S. defeat of Ghana has got you choking on your fried chicken.
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This might be a sports reference, I don't watch sports. |
Listen and come what will of it. KimchiNinja hates the US. That's fine. Some of his criticisms are valid and I share his thinking about it. However, he uses Korea as a model to prove his points, ignoring the problems here as well. I don't object to his putting the US under the microscope. Does he use the same tactic with Korea? I've yet to see it. Maybe he's happier here. That's ok. I've been happy in Korea because of things that don't exist back home. That doesn't mean I can't get pissed off about things in the place I live. I got pissed off at home, too. |
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KimchiNinja
Joined: 01 May 2012
Location: Gangnam
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:51 am Post subject: |
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| Stain wrote: |
| Maybe he's happier here. |
Yup! Things are the way they are.
If you don't like how things are, move.  |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 7:01 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
Every time? They didn't learn to identify his vehicle after a stop or two? That doesn't pass the smell test. |
Because he only went once every couple of months until our friend moved out of there. Maybe like, 5 times. And at different times of the day. It's not like it's the same old sheriff and his deputy. Different cops and long times in between. Yes, cops in America pull you over for being black. Korean cops do not.
=================================================
| Quote: |
orry, man. We disagree on this - and if you had a toddler at your side, you'd probably look at it differently too.
This city would not grind to a halt, there are many workarounds that are very feasible - and have been discussed in previous threads.
Instead of a motorcycle driving down the side walk to deliver goods (and lets be honest, they also drive down the sidewalk to circumvent traffic/lights), they could park against the curb. Heck, in major commercial areas, a 1/2 meter indent could be made in the curb to allow parking for them.
corner?
|
As for a family, it depends. If my family's source of income is an office job or a teaching job, I might be inclined to agree. However if one's livelihood was dependent on me being a truck driver, chicken shop owner, or some other industry, you might have a different view.
Also, it all depends on how strict we are. Certainly we could take on cars parking on sidewalks. And we could ticket scooter drivers who blast along the sidewalk at insane speeds. However, if say we went after people loading and unloading goods and making deliveries and severely punishing them, then yes, things would dramatically slow down. Where exactly are these vehicles going to park for some of these businesses? How are they going to physically transport materiel from their truck parked a half a kilometer down the way? You think a scooter out of control is bad, how about some 300kg out of control object rolling down one of Seoul's many hilly sidewalks because instead of parking next to its destination the driver has to park far away and dolly it over?
What enforcement mechanism are we going to have? Heavy fines? Suspending licenses? Do you think such a system would be sustainable?
I think we have to draw a line between the exigencies of commerce and what would amount to a logistical breakdown/police state. Would you get under control traffic or just every single driver having a suspended license? Could deliveries still be made in a timely and affordable fashion under a strict system? Given Seoul and much of Korea's road and traffic conditions, and parking availability, I'm not sure it's feasible.
I think tackling the worst of the scooter speeders and people who just park a normal car is about the best one can do. Either that or invest SERIOUS tax dollars into reworking the roads so as to enable bike/scooter lanes and basically declaring everyone's store front a driveway and thus acceptable to cut across a sidewalk. The amount of tax money would be taken away from other things like education, health care, social security, etc.
I'd like to hear how commerce will be able to continue at a great many of these stores if they are unable to have delivery trucks park directly in front of them and either take up a lane or move on the sidewalk. I certainly think the sheer scale of businesses affected would mean such an undertaking would not be confined to a few stores. We all know Korea's streets. The only other option that I could see is deliveries being made at midnight or something like that, but then people would complain about the noise/Korean's working to long/Korean's being away from their families at work.
But I do agree that things can get better and that the status quo is unacceptable. But I disagree that certain things can be easily solved and would work themselves out with minimal disruption. The physical realities of Seoul's streets and business locations trump any ideological vision for extremely orderly, yet economically feasible enforcement. Perhaps investing in traffic safety education, helmet laws, and stricter driver education and training might prove more efficient at reducing accidents.
| Quote: |
| I forget though. You're the same guy that figures "good" drivers should be able to go through red lights. You seem to have this fallacy that "good" drivers will drive safely on sidewalks as well - sorry, man. But that does not jive with what I see every day. "Good" is not rewarded. Fast is. |
Captain Corea that is NOT what I said. I said they should be able to treat them as 4-way stops. That is NOT the same thing. Please understand the significance of that distinction. I also mentioned that this wouldn't be at ALL stop lights and perhaps active only during certain hours.
Which determines road safety conditions?
A) The color of the light
B) The traffic conditions at the time
Who is better equipped to determine what is safe?
A) The light
B) The driver
We have traffic lights to regulate the flow of traffic and that's fine. But when the light ceases to efficiently do that, there is no reason that a driver with a good track record of safety shouldn't be able to override the judgment of the light and proceed after ensuring all things are safe.
But yes, I proposed a plan that would enable a driver after a period of accident and violation-free driving to have certain privileges such as perhaps being able to treat certain red lights as four way stops or perhaps having an extra 5-10 mph on their speed limit on the highway. Giving people rewards for achieving certain goals and inspiring them to attain them is certainly a method to consider when attempting to solve things such as traffic accidents. You cannot bring about traffic safety through a purely punitive approach. We should not be afraid to consider new and creative ideas to encourage driver safety. Now, there are undoubtedly some flaws in the details, but I don't think the idea is so outlandish as to warrant a flippant dismissal. Or is the answer to traffic safety "More tickets, More expensive tickets, More cops"? |
Heavy fines and enforcement would be easily sustainable.
Your arguments are the same that were used against regulations to stop acid rain in the U.S. Not only did they NOT hurt the economy and affected businesses but they helped existing businesses and created new ones.
Your argument is the same one currently used by climate change deniers and fossil fuel supporters. We can't change because it will hurt the economy. Change hasn't hurt Tesla.
You fail to see that humans can adapt and change, which fits with your credo that 99% of all humans lack any and all creativity. But they don't, and there are alternatives to doing business the same way it's been done for decades or even centuries in the case of some Korean businesses.
Your idea that driving should be subjective, in other words left up to the discretion of the driver as to when and where to obey the traffic laws and left up to the police as to when and where to enforce said laws just doesn't hold water. So many hundreds of thousands of daily judgments are going to include many, many wrong ones, even when people are actually making reasoned decisions, which is very often not the case.
And in Korea, there is always an excuse to break the law whether it's because I'm working, I'm late, I'm in a hurry, I'm just going to be a minute or I left the soup on the boil at home. There's a reason that anywhere there's a large number of people seeking the same service they have to give out numbers to have some semblance of order. Before they started that people habitually cut in line, with, in their minds, good reason. Unfortunately that good reason was just they didn't want to wait. The same goes for red lights.
So your ideas about red lights (and driving as a whole) are completely and utterly unrealistic and unenforceable to boot.
What's needed are traffic police who do their job, starting with stopping the many reckless drivers on the road. I see people do stuff on the road here stunt drivers wouldn't attempt. You start with the worst drivers and keep after them regularly and it will trickle down. As things currently stand, the worst drivers are the role models for other motorists.
A purely punitive approach can bring about traffic safety. The stricter punishments for DUI in the U.S. and the resulting decrease in drunk driving there is an excellent example.
Quit making excuses for scofflaws. Or start a Korean Tea Party. Maybe you can get funding from the Kochs. |
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Stain
Joined: 08 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 7:11 am Post subject: |
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| KimchiNinja wrote: |
| Stain wrote: |
| Maybe he's happier here. |
Yup! Things are the way they are.
If you don't like how things are, move. |
If you don't have a single complaint about where you live, then you are not human or a liar. Yup! |
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