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KimchiNinja
Joined: 01 May 2012
Location: Gangnam
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 Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:43 pm Post subject: Re: The world's most incompetent police force? |
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| SeoulNate wrote: |
They still wouldn't deserve it at that point. Freedom of speech is freedom of speech. |
Koreans don't agree, you get what freedoms they say you get. |
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SeoulNate
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
Location: Hyehwa
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:52 pm Post subject: Re: The world's most incompetent police force? |
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| KimchiNinja wrote: |
| SeoulNate wrote: |
They still wouldn't deserve it at that point. Freedom of speech is freedom of speech. |
Koreans don't agree, you get what freedoms they say you get. |
Please. Despite the police being a racist group in general, they are not going to ignore something like that just 'because'. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:03 pm Post subject: Re: The world's most incompetent police force? |
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| SeoulNate wrote: |
| KimchiNinja wrote: |
| chrisinkorea2011 wrote: |
im curious as to what happened. I know there are some apologists, mixed koreans, etc who stand up for Korea and would probably say you deserved it, but im genuinely curious as to what happened. Care to elaborate? |
When people have elaborated on Dave's in the past, it turned out they asked for it. "I was just wandering thru Itaewon drunk as hell, at 2AM, randomly insulting Korea loudly, when some guy came out of nowhere and punched me in the face." 
Skeptical. |
That is an idiotic comment. They still wouldn't deserve it at that point. Freedom of speech is freedom of speech. I dont walk around decking every person who says something that I find offending. |
True, but if some Korean drunkenly went around and randomly insulting black people by making monkey noises and suddenly got decked, I don't think any of us would be protesting too loudly if the police sorta shrugged. In fact, some posters on here have supported such things.
I don't really care what side someone takes on something like that as long as its consistent. If you believe in "fighting words" and the like, then let some drunken Korean insulting blacks be beat, and let some drunken foreigner insulting Koreans be beat. If you believe in free speech, then people should just have self control and respect someone's right to hate in their free speech. What I don't accept is that its okay to beat up a racist ajosshi to "Teach him a lesson" but its wrong for that to happen to a foreigner, or vice-versa.
We should be consistent and fair.
Or even have a time-place-manner restriction. Formal protest at Seoul Station spewing racist garbage against Koreans or Foreigners? Fine. Do it at a bar district at 2AM in a drunken stupor, that calls for a paddlin or more. |
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SeoulNate
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
Location: Hyehwa
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:13 pm Post subject: Re: The world's most incompetent police force? |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
True, but if some Korean drunkenly went around and randomly insulting black people by making monkey noises and suddenly got decked, I don't think any of us would be protesting too loudly if the police sorta shrugged. In fact, some posters on here have supported such things.
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We all know the police wouldn't just shrug though, and they shouldn't. Half of the problem is the concept of blood money however. If, instead of just paying a fine when you commit a crime, jail time should be mandatory along with mandatory fines/restitution and a searchable criminal record to go along with it. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Mix1 wrote: |
| KimchiNinja wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
| KimchiNinja wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
| All it would mean is a few people have to wait a bit longer. (Granted, Koreans tend not to be very good at waiting, but they could learn.) |
...or we could keep getting our chicken dinner delivery on time.
I vote for that option, as do all the Koreans. You guys lose. |
I wouldn't say the Koreans "voted" on this... it's just the way it happens to be, mainly because there is little to no enforcement of traffic laws. |
It is a reflection of their values. They value functionality/utility. Good for them. |
It's just as much about impatience, and yeah there are benefits to that, but it still doesn't mean they have to drive like psycho A-holes and ignore all traffic laws to save half a minute driving time.
But hey, it's a reflection of their values as you say. When you don't care about anyone else around you, why NOT drive like that?
And the reason they can and do drive like that is the police are nowhere to be found (which also has benefits and drawbacks). |
Question, who is this "They"? My answer is a sizable minority of asshole Korean drivers (although I do mean sizable~30-40%ish). Out of all the middle-class Koreans I've driven around with, almost all are not like that and rather courteous. Some may suffer from going to slow and I don't know what I'm doing syndrome, but not the selfish-reckless syndrome.
Now, when you get to taxi/bus drivers or jerk-offs with an Equus nouveau riche types, then that percentage skyrockets. Same with young, spoiled 20-somethings with their parent-bought toys, though young 20-somethings driving their parent's car tend to be more sane and careful.
There's a class element to this equation that I think we are overlooking. Something out there causes normal middle class Koreans with families to drive relatively ok, but most others to drive poorly. I think it might have to do with fear of economic loss and danger to their children that they have should they get in an accident. Whereas the others don't have that consideration towards themselves and therefore to others. The taxi/bus drivers might fear economic loss if they don't drive like a maniac and that contributes to it. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:19 pm Post subject: Re: The world's most incompetent police force? |
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| SeoulNate wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
True, but if some Korean drunkenly went around and randomly insulting black people by making monkey noises and suddenly got decked, I don't think any of us would be protesting too loudly if the police sorta shrugged. In fact, some posters on here have supported such things.
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We all know the police wouldn't just shrug though, and they shouldn't. Half of the problem is the concept of blood money however. If, instead of just paying a fine when you commit a crime, jail time should be mandatory along with mandatory fines/restitution and a searchable criminal record to go along with it. |
Depends on the crime and the persons history. Putting people into the criminal justice system is something that people should be cautious, not eager about. Back home the criminal justice system has turned into a bought-out, corporate infested joke. It also bogs down the system
Anyways, food for thought on blood money.
http://askakorean.blogspot.kr/2011/04/what-is-all-this-about-blood-money.html |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Question, who is this "They"? My answer is a sizable minority of asshole Korean drivers (although I do mean sizable~30-40%ish). Out of all the middle-class Koreans I've driven around with, almost all are not like that and rather courteous. Some may suffer from going to slow and I don't know what I'm doing syndrome, but not the selfish-reckless syndrome. |
My FIL is banned from driving my daughter. He often doubles the speed limit. Races to the light. Swerves between cars. And thinks nothing of it. In fact, when approached on the subject, he pulls out the "I'm older than you card, and in Korea you should respect your elders."
Unfortunately, I know a number of drivers like this. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:36 pm Post subject: Re: The world's most incompetent police force? |
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| SeoulNate wrote: |
| KimchiNinja wrote: |
| chrisinkorea2011 wrote: |
im curious as to what happened. I know there are some apologists, mixed koreans, etc who stand up for Korea and would probably say you deserved it, but im genuinely curious as to what happened. Care to elaborate? |
When people have elaborated on Dave's in the past, it turned out they asked for it. "I was just wandering thru Itaewon drunk as hell, at 2AM, randomly insulting Korea loudly, when some guy came out of nowhere and punched me in the face."
Skeptical. |
That is an idiotic comment. They still wouldn't deserve it at that point. Freedom of speech is freedom of speech. I dont walk around decking every person who says something that I find offending. |
Save that. It's the definitive answer to posts by ninjo. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Question, who is this "They"? My answer is a sizable minority of asshole Korean drivers (although I do mean sizable~30-40%ish). Out of all the middle-class Koreans I've driven around with, almost all are not like that and rather courteous. Some may suffer from going to slow and I don't know what I'm doing syndrome, but not the selfish-reckless syndrome. |
My FIL is banned from driving my daughter. He often doubles the speed limit. Races to the light. Swerves between cars. And thinks nothing of it. In fact, when approached on the subject, he pulls out the "I'm older than you card, and in Korea you should respect your elders."
Unfortunately, I know a number of drivers like this. |
That's true too. I forgot to add the age factor in. |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
| KimchiNinja wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
| KimchiNinja wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
| All it would mean is a few people have to wait a bit longer. (Granted, Koreans tend not to be very good at waiting, but they could learn.) |
...or we could keep getting our chicken dinner delivery on time.
I vote for that option, as do all the Koreans. You guys lose. |
I wouldn't say the Koreans "voted" on this... it's just the way it happens to be, mainly because there is little to no enforcement of traffic laws. |
It is a reflection of their values. They value functionality/utility. Good for them. |
It's just as much about impatience, and yeah there are benefits to that, but it still doesn't mean they have to drive like psycho A-holes and ignore all traffic laws to save half a minute driving time.
But hey, it's a reflection of their values as you say. When you don't care about anyone else around you, why NOT drive like that?
And the reason they can and do drive like that is the police are nowhere to be found (which also has benefits and drawbacks). |
Question, who is this "They"? My answer is a sizable minority of asshole Korean drivers (although I do mean sizable~30-40%ish). Out of all the middle-class Koreans I've driven around with, almost all are not like that and rather courteous. Some may suffer from going to slow and I don't know what I'm doing syndrome, but not the selfish-reckless syndrome.
Now, when you get to taxi/bus drivers or jerk-offs with an Equus nouveau riche types, then that percentage skyrockets. Same with young, spoiled 20-somethings with their parent-bought toys, though young 20-somethings driving their parent's car tend to be more sane and careful.
There's a class element to this equation that I think we are overlooking. Something out there causes normal middle class Koreans with families to drive relatively ok, but most others to drive poorly. I think it might have to do with fear of economic loss and danger to their children that they have should they get in an accident. Whereas the others don't have that consideration towards themselves and therefore to others. The taxi/bus drivers might fear economic loss if they don't drive like a maniac and that contributes to it. |
I know you'd like to deflect blame and defend Korean drivers, but your "sizable minority" is huge and contributes greatly to the overall feel of the roads here. It's pretty much the norm here to drive like an impatient A-hole with no regard for anyone else on the road or pedestrians. Full stop.
I know it's not PC, but I think we can safely stereotype "they" as ... Korean drivers in general. Sure, they don't ALL drive like that, but enough do to make it the norm. It's part cultural (yup), part poor training, and part non-enforcement of traffic laws.
I do agree with your bolded part, that the nouveau riche and spoiled brat adult males are the absolute worst of the bunch. I don't even include taxis or busses or delivery drivers in this estimation as they are a given. |
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cabeza
Joined: 29 Sep 2012
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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After 18 months of driving here, my non-scientific study has found
Taxis/Buses - Complete assholes. 99%
Flat bed trucks, usually blue - Complete assholes . 90-95%
Luxury cars - Inconsiderate assholes - 80%
Normal cars - Typically inconsiderate 70-75%
Motorbikes/scooters - Suicidal idiots - 99.99%
If someone is courteous to me (lets me in traffic, gives a little wave if I give way in a narrow road, isn't a dick) I'm usually shocked as it is so rare.
Driving is the worst thing about living here. Working class proletariat, middle class, upper class, aristocracy, they are all terrible, unless they are part of the small minority (20% and that is being liberal)
Before coming here I thought drivers back home sucked. My God. I had no idea. Also I lived in Italy for 6 months. They were crazy, but there was way more give and take on the roads. You could trust when driving in a lane next to someone that they were not going to just start merging into you for fun. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
but your "sizable minority" is huge and contributes greatly to the overall feel of the roads here. It's pretty much the norm here to drive like an impatient A-hole with no regard for anyone else on the road or pedestrians. Full stop.
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Well its a lot of people. But if I were to soberly analyze the number of people in a single commute who did me wrong vs. those who proceeded normally, then those who proceeded normally would still outweigh those who did wrong. Yes, we all remember that asshole we encounter regularly who cuts us off, but we forget the 12 people on either side of us who just drove normally.
That's not to say it isn't a big problem or doesn't happen more frequently here. But I think we have to be careful about having a selective memory bias.
| Quote: |
| know it's not PC, but I think we can safely stereotype "they" as ... Korean drivers in general. |
Fine, don't mind if Korean people stereotype foreigners/blacks/you in return now, do you?
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| that the nouveau riche and spoiled brat adult males are the absolute worst of the bunch |
Oh those spoiled adult princess girls can be just as bad, if not worse. Don't let the smile and the legs deceive you. Not to mention half those guys driving the car have one of those girls in the seat next to them screaming to get there faster and to steal that close parking spot so they don't have to walk as far in their heels. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| cabeza wrote: |
Flat bed trucks, usually blue - Complete assholes . 90-95%
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Really? I've found the Bongo truck drivers in blue to be better than the drivers in white or grey. In fact Bongo drivers in white are one of the worst.
Maybe that's just because in the small town I used to live in, most of the people there drove blue ones and driving there was pretty chill because it was less dense. In the big city most of the ones I've noticed are in white and they cut you off while their ladders and other things haphazardly dangle from the back of their truck, aimed perfectly at your windshield.
I amend yours to
Bongo Trucks in White 98%
Bongo Trucks in Blue (City) 90%
Bongo Trucks in Blue (Country) 70% with -30% country stress reducer to make it 40% (note if truck moves from country to city, that +30% gets reapplied and doubled, becoming 100% as now you have country bumpkin+bongo+city driving, creating a perfect storm)
Last edited by Steelrails on Wed Jun 18, 2014 6:42 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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KimchiNinja
Joined: 01 May 2012
Location: Gangnam
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 6:40 pm Post subject: Re: The world's most incompetent police force? |
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| atwood wrote: |
Save that. It's the definitive answer to posts by ninjo. |
This forum is filled with individuals complaining about how they were acting like an arse, and got called on it. Then they cry on the internet. I laugh.
Sure occasionally someone is minding their own business and gets something they never asked for, but that is not the pattern seen in Dave's forum tales. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:00 pm Post subject: Re: The world's most incompetent police force? |
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| KimchiNinja wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
Save that. It's the definitive answer to posts by ninjo. |
This forum is filled with individuals complaining about how they were acting like an arse, and got called on it. Then they cry on the internet. I laugh.
Sure occasionally someone is minding their own business and gets something they never asked for, but that is not the pattern seen in Dave's forum tales. |
This forum is filled with individuals complaining about how Koreans were acting like an arse.
Fixed it for you.
You can thank me by delivering some overpriced twice-fried tasteless flat-breasted chicken with a small box of tasteless white cubes and some cut-rate honey mustard to my office. It's lunchtime--ring that golden bowl! |
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