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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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 Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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| cj1976 wrote: |
The English media are tearing into the national football team after their dismal showing. I don't really understand where sense of entitlement comes from. England have only ever won an international tournament once, and have been a second tier footballing nation for quite some time now.
The players and the manager are in for a rough time, but in reality they played to the best of their abilities and were simply beaten by superior opponents.
The arrogance in England to expect a victory against any of these teams is baffling to me. I for one, predicted a first round exit as soon as the draw was made. |
It is not arrogant to expect your country to get through the group stage when the last time they failed to do that was way back in 1958.
Also England's record since 1990 hasn't been bad which is why England fans have such high expectations.
1990 Semi-Finals, knocked out on Penalties against eventual winners Germany.
1998 Second-Round, again knocked out on penalties by Argentina despite playing with 10 men. Also Sol's goal should have counted anyway.
2002 Quarter-Finals, knocked out 2-1 by eventual winners Brazil. If we had had the German draw it might have been us going to the final.
2006 Quarter-Finals, knocked out on penalties by Portugal....
2010 Second-Round, got hammered and deserved to lose...
2014 Bottom of the group
If you add pretty decent UEFA cup campapigns into the mix, England has done alright and has earned the right to call itself a top ten team.
Penalties were the only thing stopping England from getting into a World Cup final and two Semi-Finals. No wonder we feel a bit depressed that the current lot cant qualify from their group, or at least register one win. |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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A Brazilian friend described England, and their fans, in two ways.
- England is the Buffalo Bills of the soccer world (this discussion took place in the mid-90's btw). Always coming close, but fail to win it.
- England invented the sport for ***'s sake. Just imagine Canada not winning Olympic golds regularly in hockey (after the IOC allowed pros in). That would be depressing, and embarrassing. |
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radcon
Joined: 23 May 2011
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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| jvalmer wrote: |
A Brazilian friend described England, and their fans, in two ways.
- England is the Buffalo Bills of the soccer world (this discussion took place in the mid-90's btw). Always coming close, but fail to win it.
- England invented the sport for ***'s sake. Just imagine Canada not winning Olympic golds regularly in hockey (after the IOC allowed pros in). That would be depressing, and embarrassing. |
England should be so lucky to have four second place finishes as do the Buffalo Bills. |
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cj1976
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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| aq8knyus wrote: |
| cj1976 wrote: |
The English media are tearing into the national football team after their dismal showing. I don't really understand where sense of entitlement comes from. England have only ever won an international tournament once, and have been a second tier footballing nation for quite some time now.
The players and the manager are in for a rough time, but in reality they played to the best of their abilities and were simply beaten by superior opponents.
The arrogance in England to expect a victory against any of these teams is baffling to me. I for one, predicted a first round exit as soon as the draw was made. |
It is not arrogant to expect your country to get through the group stage when the last time they failed to do that was way back in 1958.
Also England's record since 1990 hasn't been bad which is why England fans have such high expectations.
1990 Semi-Finals, knocked out on Penalties against eventual winners Germany.
1998 Second-Round, again knocked out on penalties by Argentina despite playing with 10 men. Also Sol's goal should have counted anyway.
2002 Quarter-Finals, knocked out 2-1 by eventual winners Brazil. If we had had the German draw it might have been us going to the final.
2006 Quarter-Finals, knocked out on penalties by Portugal....
2010 Second-Round, got hammered and deserved to lose...
2014 Bottom of the group
If you add pretty decent UEFA cup campapigns into the mix, England has done alright and has earned the right to call itself a top ten team.
Penalties were the only thing stopping England from getting into a World Cup final and two Semi-Finals. No wonder we feel a bit depressed that the current lot cant qualify from their group, or at least register one win. |
Plucky losers are still losers. This is the kind of mentality that accepts failure. |
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cj1976
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
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Its affirmative action. There must be a set quota of white english players on the team (no matter how dismal they be) to satisfy the fans. The fans need players that resemble themselves , to identify with.
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I assume you're being facetious but despite what andrewchon said about quotas of English players. EPL teams have in the past fielded whole teams of foreigners. Arsenal and Chelsea spring to mind. Presumably there's no rule saying you have to have any English players in the first 11. Liverpool came second last year with half a team of Englishmen so they can't be that be that bad.
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| A lot of the more technically gifted European players struggle to adapt to the physical nature of the EPL. English players are naturally more suited to the English league. |
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| there have been studies done on the types of football different leagues play and the premier league players run significantly less than players in other leagues. so while many premier league players are technical wizards and play their type of game at the utmost elite level, they are not the most athletic on the pitch and don't fare well in certain types of play. |
These two statements seem to contradict each other. Are players in the premiership unfit and technical wizards or fit but ungifted?
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The sad truth is that English players are good, but nowhere near as good as English fans think.
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This is true. We thought we were going to come third in the group but we ended up last |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aBiTnUqW8
This video is from 2007. Craig Johnson, a respected football analyst, tried to to warn the FA about the bleak future of English football and was completely ignored.
"The results were that stunningly bad for English football, I wasn't allowed to publish them." |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:46 am Post subject: |
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| One or two shots a few inches to the right side of the woodwork or one or two fewer slight lapses in concentration and the press'd all be talking about a new era dawning in English international football now. Italy were apparently a quality side after beating England but their press are probably saying they're crap now. It's a funny old game. |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 2:54 am Post subject: |
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| Plucky losers are still losers. This is the kind of mentality that accepts failure. |
For a European team there are really only two competitions, the World Cup and the Euros.
In each of the competitions there have been less than 10 unique winners.
You might as well tell the dutch they are a bunch of losers cos they have only won one Euro title back in 1988.
England has beaten major teams at these competitions and have only been knocked out by the likes of 1990s Germany on penalties twice and mid-00s Portugal (once in Portugal) on penalties twice.
Nobody would say England has had the best team in the world post 1966...ever, but historically we have had a top ten side. This is the reason why the last world cup campaigns have been so disappointing. England fans are adjusting to a new reality where we can no longer compete at that level, at least for now. |
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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:58 am Post subject: |
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| England is definitely not a top ten country now. Middle power at best. |
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Sector7G
Joined: 24 May 2008
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 6:55 am Post subject: Luis Suarez banned for four months |
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http://edition.cnn.com/2014/06/26/sport/football/luis-suarez-banned-world-cup/index.html
(CNN) -- Luis Suarez has been banned for nine international matches and suspended for four months from any football activity by FIFA.
The Liverpool striker is also set to miss a large chunk of the English Premier season and is "banned from any football related activity."............................................
Uruguay is set to play its last-16 game against Colombia in Rio de Janeiro on Saturday but will be without Suarez, who will start his suspension immediately. |
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misher
Joined: 14 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:36 am Post subject: |
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It is not arrogant to expect your country to get through the group stage when the last time they failed to do that was way back in 1958.
Also England's record since 1990 hasn't been bad which is why England fans have such high expectations.
1990 Semi-Finals, knocked out on Penalties against eventual winners Germany.
1998 Second-Round, again knocked out on penalties by Argentina despite playing with 10 men. Also Sol's goal should have counted anyway.
2002 Quarter-Finals, knocked out 2-1 by eventual winners Brazil. If we had had the German draw it might have been us going to the final.
2006 Quarter-Finals, knocked out on penalties by Portugal....
2010 Second-Round, got hammered and deserved to lose...
2014 Bottom of the group
If you add pretty decent UEFA cup campapigns into the mix, England has done alright and has earned the right to call itself a top ten team.
Penalties were the only thing stopping England from getting into a World Cup final and two Semi-Finals. No wonder we feel a bit depressed that the current lot cant qualify from their group, or at least register one win. |
No. No and just no.
This is the kind of reasoning my family from the UK uses. Every WC it is the same result for England. Get through the group stages to get punted in the round of 16 when they have to face some real competition. THen my family freaks out and uses the logic above. I say that the few times England has made it beyond the round of 16 THEY OVERACHIEVED, just like South Korea did reaching the semis and USA the quarters in 2002. Or Croatia reaching the semis in 1998 or Uruguay the semis in 2010.
England is a tier 2 team IF THAT. THey have NEVER BEEN a tier one team and using the coulda woulda shoulda (complaining about penalties, losing to the eventual winners, the other side cheating blah blah) is just being in denial.
This WC England had a young team and one of the toughest groups. That they didn't win a game I would say is disappointing, but acting like the sky is falling is over reacting. Even if they made it out of their group they would have been knocked out in the 16 anyway.
For the amount of focus England puts on soccer they just simply suck at it.
THeir players are overrated by playing with other internationals that make them look good and marketing.
England sucks and always will.
THey suck at tennis too and have to rely on a Scot to win for them. |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:38 am Post subject: |
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| catman wrote: |
| England is definitely not a top ten country now. Middle power at best. |
England came last in the group and have only scored a handful of goals in 8 or so World Cup games.
But...
England reached the quarters of Euro 2012 only to lose again on penalties to Italy. They topped their 2011 Euro & 2013 World Cup qualifying groups and going into the world cup were ranked 10th by FIFA. |
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misher
Joined: 14 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:00 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| They topped their 2011 Euro & 2013 World Cup qualifying groups and going into the world cup were ranked 10th by FIFA. |
FIFA rankings I would take with a grain of salt. I remember when they had the USA 4th. Uh what?
The group qualifying stages for the Euro and WC for most European teams aren't exactly gauntlets either. Sure sometimes there are tough groups and a good Euro side is left at home but for the most part, groups are made up of teams like Andorra, Northern Ireland or the Faroe Islands.
I'd say qualifying in S. America or Africa is much harder. Heck the CONCACAF can even be a little difficult because they only get 3.5 spots. |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:10 am Post subject: |
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| misher wrote: |
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It is not arrogant to expect your country to get through the group stage when the last time they failed to do that was way back in 1958.
Also England's record since 1990 hasn't been bad which is why England fans have such high expectations.
1990 Semi-Finals, knocked out on Penalties against eventual winners Germany.
1998 Second-Round, again knocked out on penalties by Argentina despite playing with 10 men. Also Sol's goal should have counted anyway.
2002 Quarter-Finals, knocked out 2-1 by eventual winners Brazil. If we had had the German draw it might have been us going to the final.
2006 Quarter-Finals, knocked out on penalties by Portugal....
2010 Second-Round, got hammered and deserved to lose...
2014 Bottom of the group
If you add pretty decent UEFA cup campapigns into the mix, England has done alright and has earned the right to call itself a top ten team.
Penalties were the only thing stopping England from getting into a World Cup final and two Semi-Finals. No wonder we feel a bit depressed that the current lot cant qualify from their group, or at least register one win. |
No. No and just no.
This is the kind of reasoning my family from the UK uses. Every WC it is the same result for England. Get through the group stages to get punted in the round of 16 when they have to face some real competition. THen my family freaks out and uses the logic above. I say that the few times England has made it beyond the round of 16 THEY OVERACHIEVED, just like South Korea did reaching the semis and USA the quarters in 2002. Or Croatia reaching the semis in 1998 or Uruguay the semis in 2010.
England is a tier 2 team IF THAT. THey have NEVER BEEN a tier one team and using the coulda woulda shoulda (complaining about penalties, losing to the eventual winners, the other side cheating blah blah) is just being in denial.
This WC England had a young team and one of the toughest groups. That they didn't win a game I would say is disappointing, but acting like the sky is falling is over reacting. Even if they made it out of their group they would have been knocked out in the 16 anyway.
For the amount of focus England puts on soccer they just simply suck at it.
THeir players are overrated by playing with other internationals that make them look good and marketing.
England sucks and always will.
THey suck at tennis too and have to rely on a Scot to win for them. |
In the nearly twenty year period since Euro 1996 there have been 5 Euros and 5 World Cups. England have qualified for 9 out of 10 finals and made it out of the group stages 7 out of 9 times.
England have reached the last eight 5 out of 10 times all told and in 1996 got to the semis of the Euro.
It is hardly a fluke when they make it to the last 8 every other time.
It does matter that it took a penalty shoot out to stop England from being a regular top 4 finisher. Out of the 5 last 8 finishes 4 were due to a penalty shootout. You aint nothing but a hater if you dont at least acknowledge that as unlucky.
Also in all of those tournaments England beat quality opposition. |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:23 am Post subject: |
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| misher wrote: |
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| They topped their 2011 Euro & 2013 World Cup qualifying groups and going into the world cup were ranked 10th by FIFA. |
FIFA rankings I would take with a grain of salt. I remember when they had the USA 4th. Uh what?
The group qualifying stages for the Euro and WC for most European teams aren't exactly gauntlets either. Sure sometimes there are tough groups and a good Euro side is left at home but for the most part, groups are made up of teams like Andorra, Northern Ireland or the Faroe Islands.
I'd say qualifying in S. America or Africa is much harder. Heck the CONCACAF can even be a little difficult because they only get 3.5 spots. |
This isn't the 1990s anymore, even the lesser powers are getting better and better.
Also UEFA is a far more challenging qualifying process than all the others bar CONMEBOL, which is of similar difficulty.
There are at least 20 teams that are good enough to get out of the group stages of any World Cup.
Add teams like Sweden, Denmark, Poland, Bulgaria, Ukraine, Eire, Turkey, Romania, Czech Rep, Austria, Norway to Andorra etc and you soon see that topping a qualifying group is no mean feat. |
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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:15 am Post subject: |
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| aq8knyus wrote: |
It does matter that it took a penalty shoot out to stop England from being a regular top 4 finisher. Out of the 5 last 8 finishes 4 were due to a penalty shootout. You aint nothing but a hater if you dont at least acknowledge that as unlucky. |
At one point you have to drop the "unlucky" excuse and just deal with the fact that they are not as good as you think they are. Look at their loss to Italy in the last Euros. Italy dominated the game. England had no world class finisher. That is why it went to penalties. Not because of bad luck.
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Also in all of those tournaments England beat quality opposition. |
Maybe some of them were "quality" but none of them were world powers. In the last two World Cups the only team England has managed to beat was might Slovenia. The last world power that England beat in a tournament was Argentina back in 2002. How do you think England would fair against Argentina today? 
England is about as good as the US today. Some would argue that the US is better.
Last edited by catman on Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:22 am; edited 3 times in total |
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