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alongway
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
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 Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Usurname wrote: |
| I'm confused. So what's the difference whether you quit before or after 6 months? |
Exactly, there isn't one. It's an arbitrary limit that the school made up. Pretty hard to prove any real damages.
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| The damage is quite clear: they would have to fly in a new teacher to complete the contract which requires incoming airfare. The fact that the school limits the time to collect these damages may be set as 6 months is not relevant since it could be any time period or without limit. |
That's exactly the point. They have to prove real damages. If they set an arbitrary limit of 6 months and not upon arrival they'd have to show damages before 6 months. There are none. None that would be any different after 6 months.
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Further, these clauses are in the teachers' interest. Without an enforcable repayment clause, no school would prepay a ticket or reimburse a ticket on arrival. |
Speak of agendas.. these clauses aren't in the teachers interest. Not with the 6 month limit on it. A clause that says your airfare will be repaid immediately on arrival is in the teachers interest. A clause that says we're going to front you the money for your ticket when you arrive, but require you to give it back if you don't work 6 months sounds very much like an illegal advance based on worker's labor.
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And you're still asking for something that I've said doesn't exist. |
I asked you for any case in which the airfare was decided, not that it was awarded to the teacher. Having some reading comprehension problems?
Surely you must be able to point to a case where a teacher worked less than 6 months and asked the labour board to get his airfare back and the labour board denied it, right?
Otherwise your opinion is nothing more than speculation with zero proof. |
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Usurname
Joined: 21 Oct 2011
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 6:09 am Post subject: |
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So the schools say that you don't have to pay back airfare if you quit after 6 months?
If you do end up paying the airfare, is it the exact same amount that you paid for airfare? Would it be better to choose a time of the year where plane ticket is cheap so that you would pay less back if you were to quit early and they demanded the airfare money back?
About how much can you expect to pay back in recruiters fee, like $1000? |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:44 am Post subject: |
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| Usurname wrote: |
So the schools say that you don't have to pay back airfare if you quit after 6 months?
If you do end up paying the airfare, is it the exact same amount that you paid for airfare? Would it be better to choose a time of the year where plane ticket is cheap so that you would pay less back if you were to quit early and they demanded the airfare money back?
About how much can you expect to pay back in recruiters fee, like $1000? |
The point of this whole exercies is that ...
... You should not sign a contract that requires you to pay back any recruitment costs or recruiter's fees.
You can avoid having to pay these things back if they are not in your contract. Schools that put them in their contracts are waving a big red flag. Either they have problems routinely with teachers running or quiting, or they have a tendency to cut corners and are looking for any chance to chisel you. IMO you should never sign any contract calling for repayment of recruitment costs or with housing deposits. Do not expect the labor office to help you. If a contract has terms calling for paying back recruiter's fees - Pass and move on. |
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reminiscink
Joined: 14 Apr 2014
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Hi guys, I just wanted to clarify couple things here. In the event that you are fired, (doesnt matter how the contract is worded) you do not need to pay anything back. In fact, they need to pay you severance as well as flight tickets in some cases. If you or anyone you know were let go recently (less than 12 months ago), contact me 070.7525.4347 |
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Usurname
Joined: 21 Oct 2011
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| reminiscink wrote: |
| Hi guys, I just wanted to clarify couple things here. In the event that you are fired, (doesnt matter how the contract is worded) you do not need to pay anything back. In fact, they need to pay you severance as well as flight tickets in some cases. If you or anyone you know were let go recently (less than 12 months ago), contact me 070.7525.4347 |
What if you quit? Then do you need to pay back? |
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reminiscink
Joined: 14 Apr 2014
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Usurname wrote: |
| reminiscink wrote: |
| Hi guys, I just wanted to clarify couple things here. In the event that you are fired, (doesnt matter how the contract is worded) you do not need to pay anything back. In fact, they need to pay you severance as well as flight tickets in some cases. If you or anyone you know were let go recently (less than 12 months ago), contact me 070.7525.4347 |
What if you quit? Then do you need to pay back? |
Not necessarily, we would have to review your contract and confirm it but in most cases, you do not have to pay anything back. Again, I strongly advise anyone going through this to contact us. We will help you figure this out and get everything you deserve including the letter of release. |
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alongway
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 12:16 am Post subject: |
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| reminiscink wrote: |
| Hi guys, I just wanted to clarify couple things here. In the event that you are fired, (doesnt matter how the contract is worded) you do not need to pay anything back. In fact, they need to pay you severance as well as flight tickets in some cases. If you or anyone you know were let go recently (less than 12 months ago), contact me 070.7525.4347 |
Why less than 12 months ago?
The labour board will go back 3 years. |
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MedellinHeel
Joined: 16 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:48 am Post subject: |
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| Usurname wrote: |
@MedellinHeel:
Ok, so the trick seems to be quitting right on the payday after you've got your paycheck and then they wouldn't be able to do anything to get any money back from you that has been already paid? |
Yes but they still are gonna get those 5-8 days you worked into the new pay period. |
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Troglodyte
Joined: 06 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:09 am Post subject: |
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| MedellinHeel wrote: |
| Usurname wrote: |
@MedellinHeel:
Ok, so the trick seems to be quitting right on the payday after you've got your paycheck and then they wouldn't be able to do anything to get any money back from you that has been already paid? |
Yes but they still are gonna get those 5-8 days you worked into the new pay period. |
True. This strategy is mainly to minimize your losses and at the same time minimize the effort needed to do so. Most people who go that route simply write off that week (or two) as a loss equal to the cost of a flight. They usually don't pay their utilities bills (which are almost always in the name of the employer) for the last month or so either. If you hang around Korea then you could fight to get that money but a lot of people simply leave and either go home or go elsewhere in Asia. If you plan it well then your losses won't really be that much. |
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Troglodyte
Joined: 06 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:59 am Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
| alongway wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
| alongway wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
| alongway wrote: |
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| Now check Labor board decisions. When did a teacher recover for airfare that was deducted according to the contract from final pay? |
Can you point to a decision where the labour board was actually asked to decide that?
Most teachers would never think to ask for that because "it's in the contract"
without considering if it's illegal or not. |
Most teachers would never think to ask for that because it's a reasonable term to repay up to 6 months. You will not likely hear of any such case because Labor would tell you not to even file such an action.
In Korea you can't just sue for anything whatsoever, the claims you make can be rejected by the Police office where you file your lawsuit before they can be served on any defendant or brought to any court. |
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| Now check Labor board decisions. When did a teacher recover for airfare that was deducted according to the contract from final pay? |
You are holding the labour board decisions up as proof. Can you point to a time they've actually been able to decide this on record? Yes or no? Your theory that the labour board has told them not to request that doesn't suddenly make it true or prove your point. |
You need to check your logic.
Essentially every contract that includes airfare has a repayment clause. Hundreds of teachers have been fired for failure to finish 6 months (the standard repayment term). Many have gone to the labor board to claim for unpaid wages and late wages. We have seen many such victories proclaimed on Dave's.
So, my question, after all of that, the silly claim by a poster above that deducting for airfare is illegal would indicate that someone has actually collected from a labor board decision for such a deduction that has been made and been part of the background facts in all of these cases. Yet no one has ever reported being fired before 6 months and getting the deducted airfare back from a labor ruling in all the threads I've read over the years. So the question:
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| Now check Labor board decisions. When did a teacher recover for airfare that was deducted according to the contract from final pay? |
If trog was correct there would be at least one example someone could point to. It only takes one. (Other than the possibility of serious initial breach by the school, ie such as fraudulent hiring.)
So the lack of a single case is proof.
Further, since this is a reasonable deduction, it is likely that the Labor board would rarely if ever entertain such a claim and they would discourage such a filing. So we don't even hear of teachers filing for this.
This completes the logical sequence. |
So you're basing this on forum posts and not some database of labour board decisions?
Your logic fails.
while ESLcafe is popular, it is not the be all and end all of the ESL world in Korea.
The labour board may only go after specific requests from teachers. Teachers may never have tried to ask for the airfare back or those who did may not have posted here.
it's very hard to prove a negative, in fact it's generally recommended that one doesn't.
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Which is why I don't have to have the labor board stats - you do. Trog and now you have to have the labor board stats, and it only takes one case where a teacher was awarded airfare because it's an illegal deduction.
If you and Trog cannot provide such a case then you cannot claim that deducting for airfare is illegal.
Remember that everything is legal unless there is a law, edict, regulation or rule to make it illegal. |
I know of at least 5 cases where a teacher was fired before the 6 month mark and the school withheld their last month's pay (or most of it) as supposed compensation for the flight and other stuff, it went to court, and the court said that the teacher did not have to pay back the airfare and ordered the school to pay up. In three cases the school simply paid up. In the other two, the court eventually told the bank of the school's owner to transfer the money to the teacher. The court said that it was unlawful for the employer to withhold that money. The money initially paid for the tickets was considered a separate matter, even though it appeared in the same contract. It was also noted in only one case that if the employer had done things the lawful way then the school might have been awarded PART of the money for the flight on a pro rata basis. In at least one case the court noted that the employer would not have been entitled to anything since they did not feel that the teacher was fired for just reasons and noted that if the teacher had asked for compensation, he would have received that as well. In one case the court said that the school was not entitled to the money anyway because it was seen as a penalty clause.
I also know of 3 other cases where it went to court and the court found that the employer was entitled to part of the money but LESS than a pro rated amount, again because they initially illegally withheld the money.
Only one of these cases involved the school trying to recuperate ONLY the cost of the airfare. The other times the schools were also trying to collect on other stuff which the court said they had no valid claim to in any case. I don't remember now what most of the other stuff was but at least a couple of the schools tried to claim the cost of initially recruiting the teacher (which they would have to pay again for the next teacher).
In all of these cases there will be a permanent record of the case.
I also know of a few more cases (I can't remember how many now) where the LB told the employer to pay up and the employer did so. Although the LB has almost no power to enforce its decisions, employers DO NOT want to have a record on file at the LB. It can hurt them big time down the road for various things. Normally, if an employer and employee can resolve a problem between themselves, the LB will (upon confirmation from the employee) remove the complain from the system - i.e. they'll wipe clean the employer's record.
I'm not pointing this out to encourage people to take bad contracts. People should view these clauses as red flags and reject the contracts (and tell the employers where to stick them). BUT there are some people who haven't read about these things (not everyone finds these forums before taking a job) and end up in a situation. In those cases they might later find this thread and ones like it and this information may be useful to them. They may be able to salvage a bit of a bad situation. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Troglodyte wrote: |
I know of at least 5 cases where a teacher was fired before the 6 month mark and the school withheld their last month's pay (or most of it) as supposed compensation for the flight and other stuff, it went to court, and the court said that the teacher did not have to pay back the airfare and ordered the school to pay up.
In three cases the school simply paid up. In the other two, the court eventually told the bank of the school's owner to transfer the money to the teacher. The court said that it was unlawful for the employer to withhold that money. The money initially paid for the tickets was considered a separate matter, even though it appeared in the same contract. It was also noted in only one case that if the employer had done things the lawful way then the school might have been awarded PART of the money for the flight on a pro rata basis. In at least one case the court noted that the employer would not have been entitled to anything since they did not feel that the teacher was fired for just reasons and noted that if the teacher had asked for compensation, he would have received that as well. In one case the court said that the school was not entitled to the money anyway because it was seen as a penalty clause.
I also know of 3 other cases where it went to court and the court found that the employer was entitled to part of the money but LESS than a pro rated amount, again because they initially illegally withheld the money.
Only one of these cases involved the school trying to recuperate ONLY the cost of the airfare.
The other times the schools were also trying to collect on other stuff which the court said they had no valid claim to in any case. I don't remember now what most of the other stuff was but at least a couple of the schools tried to claim the cost of initially recruiting the teacher (which they would have to pay again for the next teacher).
In all of these cases there will be a permanent record of the case.
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That's a lot of cases, although only one seems to involve just airfare and it's not clear which of the non specific outcomes apply. I've never seen anything like these on Dave's so it's a wonder that you know of so many personally. Are any of these cases your own?
To make sense of all this we would need to see the numbers involved, the contracts, how close they were to the 6 month mark, and the court record, since withholding "their last month's pay (or most of it)" would far exceed airfare, and "other stuff" is likely to be stuff not in the contract which would constitute stuff "they had no valid claim to in any case."
Withholding more than one is entitled to is apt to bring a judge down hard on other items that are actually legitimate. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| reminiscink wrote: |
| Hi guys, I just wanted to clarify couple things here. In the event that you are fired, (doesnt matter how the contract is worded) you do not need to pay anything back. In fact, they need to pay you severance as well as flight tickets in some cases. If you or anyone you know were let go recently (less than 12 months ago), contact me 070.7525.4347 |
Nice advertising.
Actually I see that your first post states you used the services of the organization your are promoting and it seems that they collected the one month salary and housing that constitutes the one month notice that is required and considered standard. Nothing special.
| your first post on Dave's: Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:41 pm wrote: |
reminiscink wrote:
Contact FLAg Association at 070.7525.4347.
I think the name of the person I contacted was Jay. They are Legal Assistance provider for Foreign Nationals (Actual Lawyers). I had a similar case in March. School terminated the contract mid-term and basically kicked me out. I was homeless and broke. They replaced me with someone who got paid less. Dont let these Schools get away with it. FLAg Association barely charges anything. They got me one month pay and housing compensation reimbursement. Good luck~ |
This means that you have no basis for your claims about not paying anything back, severance, flight tickets etc.
As far as this group:
Do they offer free initial consultations or is there a fee?
Do they work pro bono, or with fees contingent on amounts collected as a percentage (without a retainer), or do they require an up-front payment for services where the teacher takes all the risk?
(BTW: Are you a teacher or are you part of this group soliciting business?) |
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Troglodyte
Joined: 06 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
| Troglodyte wrote: |
I know of at least 5 cases where a teacher was fired before the 6 month mark and the school withheld their last month's pay (or most of it) as supposed compensation for the flight and other stuff, it went to court, and the court said that the teacher did not have to pay back the airfare and ordered the school to pay up.
In three cases the school simply paid up. In the other two, the court eventually told the bank of the school's owner to transfer the money to the teacher. The court said that it was unlawful for the employer to withhold that money. The money initially paid for the tickets was considered a separate matter, even though it appeared in the same contract. It was also noted in only one case that if the employer had done things the lawful way then the school might have been awarded PART of the money for the flight on a pro rata basis. In at least one case the court noted that the employer would not have been entitled to anything since they did not feel that the teacher was fired for just reasons and noted that if the teacher had asked for compensation, he would have received that as well. In one case the court said that the school was not entitled to the money anyway because it was seen as a penalty clause.
I also know of 3 other cases where it went to court and the court found that the employer was entitled to part of the money but LESS than a pro rated amount, again because they initially illegally withheld the money.
Only one of these cases involved the school trying to recuperate ONLY the cost of the airfare.
The other times the schools were also trying to collect on other stuff which the court said they had no valid claim to in any case. I don't remember now what most of the other stuff was but at least a couple of the schools tried to claim the cost of initially recruiting the teacher (which they would have to pay again for the next teacher).
In all of these cases there will be a permanent record of the case.
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That's a lot of cases, although only one seems to involve just airfare and it's not clear which of the non specific outcomes apply. I've never seen anything like these on Dave's so it's a wonder that you know of so many personally. Are any of these cases your own?
To make sense of all this we would need to see the numbers involved, the contracts, how close they were to the 6 month mark, and the court record, since withholding "their last month's pay (or most of it)" would far exceed airfare, and "other stuff" is likely to be stuff not in the contract which would constitute stuff "they had no valid claim to in any case."
Withholding more than one is entitled to is apt to bring a judge down hard on other items that are actually legitimate. |
I was not the teacher in any of those cases but they are all cases in which I went with the teacher to the LB and helped them to find someone to go to court with. These are not just stories or gossip that I heard from someone at a bar. |
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reminiscink
Joined: 14 Apr 2014
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 12:30 am Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
| reminiscink wrote: |
| Hi guys, I just wanted to clarify couple things here. In the event that you are fired, (doesnt matter how the contract is worded) you do not need to pay anything back. In fact, they need to pay you severance as well as flight tickets in some cases. If you or anyone you know were let go recently (less than 12 months ago), contact me 070.7525.4347 |
Nice advertising.
Actually I see that your first post states you used the services of the organization your are promoting and it seems that they collected the one month salary and housing that constitutes the one month notice that is required and considered standard. Nothing special.
| your first post on Dave's: Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:41 pm wrote: |
reminiscink wrote:
Contact FLAg Association at 070.7525.4347.
I think the name of the person I contacted was Jay. They are Legal Assistance provider for Foreign Nationals (Actual Lawyers). I had a similar case in March. School terminated the contract mid-term and basically kicked me out. I was homeless and broke. They replaced me with someone who got paid less. Dont let these Schools get away with it. FLAg Association barely charges anything. They got me one month pay and housing compensation reimbursement. Good luck~ |
This means that you have no basis for your claims about not paying anything back, severance, flight tickets etc.
As far as this group:
Do they offer free initial consultations or is there a fee?
Do they work pro bono, or with fees contingent on amounts collected as a percentage (without a retainer), or do they require an up-front payment for services where the teacher takes all the risk?
(BTW: Are you a teacher or are you part of this group soliciting business?) |
Not really sure what your problem is but... I was teaching English here and got screwed. As for your question, they do have a signup fee for people who want security regarding legal issues. However, its a different story if you are fired. I took the time to submit my case at the Labor committee but all they did was write a letter to my employer asking them to respond. In the end, nothing happened and they were fined 278,000 won while I was out of a job with little to nothing in my acct. I was just sharing information on places you can get help from. I mean seriously, I dont know anyone that will pay 1 mil won as penalty for getting fired. Even if you quit, you are not entitled to pay anything... but you do need a lawyer for that so I was merely suggesting FLAg (I know this from experience). Thats all. It wasnt directed at you in anyway nor was I being obnoxious. You should really watch what you say about others who are only trying to offer help. I dont get paid to mention FLAg. I just had a good experience with them. The consultation with them is free. They are an actual Attorney and not someone trying to act like one. I would've just went about my day after I got screwed probably working at another school with a bad taste in my mouth. They assisted me with housing, visa, and compensation with no upfront fee. I tried all the Legal places mentioned here. Got nowhere. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 5:47 am Post subject: |
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| reminiscink wrote: |
| Usurname wrote: |
| reminiscink wrote: |
| Hi guys, I just wanted to clarify couple things here. In the event that you are fired, (doesnt matter how the contract is worded) you do not need to pay anything back. In fact, they need to pay you severance as well as flight tickets in some cases. If you or anyone you know were let go recently (less than 12 months ago), contact me 070.7525.4347 |
What if you quit? Then do you need to pay back? |
Not necessarily, we would have to review your contract and confirm it but in most cases, you do not have to pay anything back. Again, I strongly advise anyone going through this to contact us. We will help you figure this out and get everything you deserve including the letter of release. |
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