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If you are fired, how much money do you have to give back?
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ontheway

Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...

Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 5:47 am Post subject:

reminiscink wrote:

Hi guys, I just wanted to clarify couple things here. In the event that you are fired, (doesnt matter how the contract is worded) you do not need to pay anything back. In fact, they need to pay you severance as well as flight tickets in some cases. If you or anyone you know were let go recently (less than 12 months ago), contact me 070.7525.4347

ontheway

Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...

Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 6:07 am Post subject:

reminiscink wrote:

ontheway wrote:

reminiscink wrote:

Nice advertising.

Actually I see that your first post states you used the services of the organization your are promoting and it seems that they collected the one month salary and housing that constitutes the one month notice that is required and considered standard. Nothing special.

your first post on Dave's: Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:41 pm wrote:

reminiscink wrote:
Contact FLAg Association at 070.7525.4347.
I think the name of the person I contacted was Jay. They are Legal Assistance provider for Foreign Nationals (Actual Lawyers). I had a similar case in March. School terminated the contract mid-term and basically kicked me out. I was homeless and broke. They replaced me with someone who got paid less. Dont let these Schools get away with it. FLAg Association barely charges anything. They got me one month pay and housing compensation reimbursement. Good luck~

This means that you have no basis for your claims about not paying anything back, severance, flight tickets etc.

As far as this group:

Do they offer free initial consultations or is there a fee?

Do they work pro bono, or with fees contingent on amounts collected as a percentage (without a retainer), or do they require an up-front payment for services where the teacher takes all the risk?

(BTW: Are you a teacher or are you part of this group soliciting business?)

Not really sure what your problem is but... I was teaching English here and got screwed. As for your question, they do have a signup fee for people who want security regarding legal issues. However, its a different story if you are fired. I took the time to submit my case at the Labor committee but all they did was write a letter to my employer asking them to respond. In the end, nothing happened and they were fined 278,000 won while I was out of a job with little to nothing in my acct. I was just sharing information on places you can get help from. I mean seriously, I dont know anyone that will pay 1 mil won as penalty for getting fired. Even if you quit, you are not entitled to pay anything... but you do need a lawyer for that so I was merely suggesting FLAg (I know this from experience). Thats all. It wasnt directed at you in anyway nor was I being obnoxious. You should really watch what you say about others who are only trying to offer help. I dont get paid to mention FLAg. I just had a good experience with them. The consultation with them is free. They are an actual Attorney and not someone trying to act like one. I would've just went about my day after I got screwed probably working at another school with a bad taste in my mouth. They assisted me with housing, visa, and compensation with no upfront fee. I tried all the Legal places mentioned here. Got nowhere.

Here's the problem:

First you posted as a teacher on April 29, 2014. You were promoting this Flag group of attys (is there only one?) for helping you get what anyone can get from the labor office.

Then, on July 6, 2014, you came back and you were posting as a lawyer working for Flag and making all kinds of promises. You also edited your first and only post until then where you were posing as a teacher on July 6, 2014.

post as edited by reminiscink

Quote:

reminiscink

Joined: 14 Apr 2014

Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:41 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Contact FLAg Association at 070.7525.4347.

Last edited by reminiscink on Sun Jul 06, 2014 6:11 pm; edited 1 time in total

However, your original post had been quoted by Ttompatz, so it was still saved:

Quote:

ttompatz

Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea
Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:35 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

reminiscink wrote:
Contact FLAg Association at 070.7525.4347.
I think the name of the person I contacted was Jay. They are Legal Assistance provider for Foreign Nationals (Actual Lawyers). I had a similar case in March. School terminated the contract mid-term and basically kicked me out. I was homeless and broke. They replaced me with someone who got paid less. Dont let these Schools get away with it. FLAg Association barely charges anything. They got me one month pay and housing compensation reimbursement. Good luck~

http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=232445&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

Your posts on July 6th:

Quote:

reminiscink

Joined: 14 Apr 2014

Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:40 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I may be able to you with your missing pension. If you have any type of paper trail such as a contract, paystub, or bank statement, it will make it easier. However, if you dont have any of these, most of the time, the school info and the name of the director at the time will suffice. We can look up their info and current address to issue a court order. The missing amount from 02 - 06 will have to be calculated as well as the interest that you would've gained for the last 10+ years including the change of currency value. It's a substantial amount. contact me at 070.7527.4347.

Now, with that said, there are times when contracts will mention the NPS. Even if you are not eligible for it. Some schools know this but mention it anyway. It's like a loophole in the contract. Collecting 3.3% tax which only pays for govnt tax and not the resident tax, will make you ineligible for NPS. The only way to verify this is to refer back to your teaching contract. This type of practice is indeed illegal, but not many people do anything about it.

http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=233502

Quote:

reminiscink

Joined: 14 Apr 2014

Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:33 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi guys, I just wanted to clarify couple things here. In the event that you are fired, (doesnt matter how the contract is worded) you do not need to pay anything back. In fact, they need to pay you severance as well as flight tickets in some cases. If you or anyone you know were let go recently (less than 12 months ago), contact me 070.7525.4347

and

Quote:

reminiscink

Joined: 14 Apr 2014

Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 6:08 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Usurname wrote:
reminiscink wrote:
Hi guys, I just wanted to clarify couple things here. In the event that you are fired, (doesnt matter how the contract is worded) you do not need to pay anything back. In fact, they need to pay you severance as well as flight tickets in some cases. If you or anyone you know were let go recently (less than 12 months ago), contact me 070.7525.4347

What if you quit? Then do you need to pay back?

Not necessarily, we would have to review your contract and confirm it but in most cases, you do not have to pay anything back. Again, I strongly advise anyone going through this to contact us. We will help you figure this out and get everything you deserve including the letter of release.

So, as we can all clearly see, you have been posing as a teacher and as a lawyer. Clearly you tried to erase your original identity, but failed unknowingly, when you decided to post as a lawyer. Then, when caught, you switched back to being a teacher, but you didn't edit your posts as a lawyer.

It's fairly clear that you're trying to drum up business. It seems that you might actually be a lawyer and that you are named Jay or use that as your English name.

It's also fairly clear that you are not completely conversant regarding the technical legalites of contractual labor matters, beyond the fact that there are some easy cases that you can collect on.

This was quite a ham handed attempt to drum up business, but you certainly have confirmed my faith in lawyers who I esteem in the same high category as recruiters, politicians and other purveyors of unadulterated bovine excrement.

alongway

Joined: 02 Jan 2012

Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 6:09 am Post subject:

tl;dr ontheway was wrong and he's not looking to try and derail the thread to take the focus off that.

ontheway

Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...

Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 6:28 am Post subject:

alongway wrote:

tl;dr ontheway was wrong and he's not looking to try and derail the thread to take the focus off that.

Nothing left to deal with.

The only cases posted were in court with no backup info. It's not surprising to see some wins in court, especially when we could have facts that required the reported outcome, such as a firing during the 6th month (5 months completed) negating a 6 month repay clause, just as a firing during the 12th month (after 11 months have been completed) is almost never supportable. According to the poster, they specifically happened with judges in court and not at the Labor Office.

It would be quite interesting to see these cases, so I would hope that Trog would post them.

We still have no one ever getting their airfare back from the Labor Board if it was deducted from their final pay and there were no other extenuating circumstances - in other words, in clear cut, simple cases.

However, our lawyer posting as a teacher has lost all credibility:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87w655s3xKc

alongway

Joined: 02 Jan 2012

Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 6:47 am Post subject:

ontheway wrote:

alongway wrote:

tl;dr ontheway was wrong and he's not looking to try and derail the thread to take the focus off that.

because you've posted so much proof to support your position? This is called moving the goal posts. You wanted a case, you got several. You haven't posted a single case to support your view at all. I don't think he's the one who has lost credibility here at all.

ontheway

Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...

Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:47 am Post subject:

alongway wrote:

ontheway wrote:

alongway wrote:

tl;dr ontheway was wrong and he's not looking to try and derail the thread to take the focus off that.

Funny that you find credible a person who has made up a personality out of whole cloth, either as a teacher or lawyer, where the facts behind the two render impossible the veracity of at least some of the posts. This certainly has an affect on your credibility, and is enlightening as to your credulity.

****

As to the issue of the thread. From the outset, I asked for a labor board decision that ordered airfare paid back to a teacher after it had been deducted from the teacher's final pay.

To be a clear cut decision, the teacher would have had to resign, or be fired with proper cause, without other issues, and with a minimum notice equal to or exceeding 30 days as required by labor or the contractual period, whichever is longer resulting in less than 5 months worked for a 6 month repayment clause.

No one has posted a single labor board decision, let alone one that is unencumbered by other issues.

Reference was made to 5 or 6 court decisions where only one is asserted to have been clearly about airfare, but there have been no particulars as to the contract, type of termination, amounts, or month of firing. These are certainly worth looking at and could change the entire situation for teachers in Korea, if the facts were posted and the cases could be cited for use before labor and in court.

Courts are separate from the labor office and they can rule any way they want. A single decision may or may not be meaningful, but we can't know without the facts of the cases. However, most individual lawsuits for damages are not precedent setting. Even when they are anomalous and could set a new standard, that is not generally relied upon until tested on appeal. However, if details can be provided by trog, especially if the cases can be cited before the labor board, it could be a game changer. I hope that at some future date he will provide the details.

However, as of yet, there is still nothing to deal with.

alongway

Joined: 02 Jan 2012

Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:53 am Post subject:

ontheway wrote:

Funny that you find credible a person who has made up a personality out of whole cloth, either as a teacher or lawyer, where the facts behind the two render impossible the veracity of at least some of the posts. This certainly has an affect on your credibility, and is enlightening as to your credulity.

****

As to the issue of the thread. I asked for a labor board decision that ordered airfare paid back to a teacher after it had been deducted from the teacher's final pay.

To be a clear cut decision, the teacher would have had to resign, or be fired with proper cause, without other issues, and with a minimum notice equal to or exceeding 30 days as required by labor or the contractual period, whichever is longer resulting in less than 5 months worked for a 6 month repayment clause.

No one has posted a single labor board decision, let alone one that is unencumbered by other issues.

Reference was made to 5 or 6 court decisions where only one is asserted to have been clearly about airfare, but there have been no particulars as to the contract, type of termination, amounts, or month of firing. These are certainly worth looking at and could change the entire situation for teachers in Korea, if the facts were posted and the cases could be cited for use before labor and in court.

Courts are separate from the labor office and they can rule any way they want. A single decision may or may not be meaningful, but we can't know without the facts of the cases. However, most individual lawsuits for damages are not precedent setting. Even when they are anomalous and could set a new standard, that is not generally relied upon until tested on appeal. However, if details can be provided by trog, especially if the cases can be cited before the labor board, it could be a game changer.

However, as of yet, there is still nothing to deal with.

Ah the dishonesty and misrepresentation.

Since you like quoting things so much

Quote:

Now check Labor board decisions. When did a teacher recover for airfare that was deducted according to the contract from final pay?

You are just wrong. These deductions are taken all the time - including by the public schools, for airfare, apartment costs and damages, and recruiters fees if in the contract. Labor will not give you the money back and you will have no luck in court. Labor will not award you this money (unless there are other issues such as a serious contract violation by the employer that came first.)

You're speaking here as if you're actually aware of some decisions. You've failed to prove a single one. You then speak in certainties and claim people will have no luck in court, well we already know that's not true.

You made claims you can't back up and flat-out lied, that's why you have no credibility.

ontheway

Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...

Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:51 am Post subject:

alongway wrote:

ontheway wrote:

Funny that you find credible a person who has made up a personality out of whole cloth, either as a teacher or lawyer, where the facts behind the two render impossible the veracity of at least some of the posts. This certainly has an affect on your credibility, and is enlightening as to your credulity.

****

As to the issue of the thread. I asked for a labor board decision that ordered airfare paid back to a teacher after it had been deducted from the teacher's final pay.

To be a clear cut decision, the teacher would have had to resign, or be fired with proper cause, without other issues, and with a minimum notice equal to or exceeding 30 days as required by labor or the contractual period, whichever is longer resulting in less than 5 months worked for a 6 month repayment clause.

No one has posted a single labor board decision, let alone one that is unencumbered by other issues.

Reference was made to 5 or 6 court decisions where only one is asserted to have been clearly about airfare, but there have been no particulars as to the contract, type of termination, amounts, or month of firing. These are certainly worth looking at and could change the entire situation for teachers in Korea, if the facts were posted and the cases could be cited for use before labor and in court.

Courts are separate from the labor office and they can rule any way they want. A single decision may or may not be meaningful, but we can't know without the facts of the cases. However, most individual lawsuits for damages are not precedent setting. Even when they are anomalous and could set a new standard, that is not generally relied upon until tested on appeal. However, if details can be provided by trog, especially if the cases can be cited before the labor board, it could be a game changer.

However, as of yet, there is still nothing to deal with.

Ah the dishonesty and misrepresentation.

Since you like quoting things so much

Quote:

No, what I stated was that I was aware that there were no labor board decisions that awarded a refund of airfare deducted from the last pay of a teacher (ie airfare that was repaid) other than cases where the time period showed the teacher didn't have to repay the airfare, tax fraud or other serious emplyer breach that would override the contractual provision. To date no one has disproved this assertion. In addition, no one has presented either the facts or citations for a clearcut case of such an award in court either.

Sorry, you are so incapable of following a logical path of fact and analysis. This entire topic and the ability to comprehend the discussion is just beyond your ken.

Post a single case where you have the facts, the details and can cite the labor office, date, parties etc.

Just one.

If there are none, there is nothing to cite. This is the point upon which you have no logical understanding.

I asked for anyone to check labor board decisions and to cite any that ordered repayment of airfare (where the facts are clearcut and there are no muddying issues such as dates, failure to pay salary, tax fraud etc.).

We have assertions. As of yet no proof or cases. The public schools still have repayment clauses for airfare in their contracts that would be voided if they were no longer legally enforcable. Every school has repayment clauses for airfare.

The public schools (and some private schools) have deposit clauses that are similar to repayment clauses that could also be voided.

When anyone can provide actual cases with cites that airfare cannot be required to be repaid, the era of these clauses, along with prepaid airfare, will quickly come to an end. Every teacher who quits or is fired, even for cause, would be entitled to keep the prepaid airfare - depending on how this change in the current legal environment was interpreted, a teacher would possibly not have to repay, even after working only one day. No school would risk prepaid airfare, nor reimbursed airfare prior to completing 6 months under such circumstances. Repayment clauses actually benefit honest teachers who can't afford or are unwilling to bear the risk of fronting their own airfare.

No one has provided cases or cites, only assertions. The assertions may be true and I'd love to see them. I hope Trog follows up with facts and citations. There would be a great deal of fluster and change to all employment contracts in Korea with similar provisions, not just for E2 teachers. E1 and E2 teachers already in Korea (public and private) would be worth more and new teachers would have to prepay their own airfare. It would be interesting to see if monthly salaries rose and whether airfare would be reimbursed after 6 months or dropped altogether. Schools would very likely have to provide separate housing contracts for their teachers as well, to include deposits separate from their employment contracts. (This would also affect thousands of Koreans with employer sponsored housing.) Teachers may have to put up cash deposits, instead of having them deducted from their first 3 months salaries as is done now by public schools. All of this would be quite interesting to follow and study as it occurred.

alongway

Joined: 02 Jan 2012

Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 3:31 pm Post subject:

Quote:

You said nothing of the sort. You spoke in certainties.
To date you haven't proven your initial assertions either.

Quote:

Sorry, you are so incapable of following a logical path of fact and analysis. This entire topic and the ability to comprehend the discussion is just beyond your ken.

There is nothing logical about what you've written. You are asking people to prove a negative for something you refuse to prove yourself and clearly have no actual knowledge about.

Quote:

Post a single case where you have the facts, the details and can cite the labor office, date, parties etc.

Just one.

And I've asked you to do the same, a single case showing a teacher being denied his airfare. You haven't.

Quote:

I asked for anyone to check labor board decisions and to cite any that ordered repayment of airfare (where the facts are clearcut and there are no muddying issues such as dates, failure to pay salary, tax fraud etc.).

Why don't you check them? You're so sure of yourself, it should be no problem to find what you're looking for right?

Quote:

The public schools (and some private schools) have deposit clauses that are similar to repayment clauses that could also be voided.

At least one school has told their employee that doing so is illegal and asked them to send them the money under the table because they shouldn't be taking it from their wages. People put all kinds of things in contracts that are illegal, like the clause requiring the employee give X days notice. More failed logic on your part.

Keep spinning. You're full of it. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about and you're in way over your head. But you are pretty amusing so carry on.

ontheway

Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...

Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 3:45 pm Post subject:

alongway wrote:

Quote:

Sorry, you are so incapable of following a logical path of fact and analysis. This entire topic and the ability to comprehend the discussion is just beyond your ken.

There is nothing logical about what you've written. You are asking people to prove a negative for something you refuse to prove yourself and clearly have no actual knowledge about.

Quote:

Post a single case where you have the facts, the details and can cite the labor office, date, parties etc.

Just one.

You are clueless. I said that there are no such cases from the labor office. That is a negative. So, there is nothing to show.

You claim that there are cases form the labor office, that is a positive. Prove it. Show them.

But you cannot. There are none.

And you cannot understand simple logic.

(... But if Trog can show some cases, that would be fine - since my initial request was for anyone who knows of any to show them. He told of court cases but no labor office decisions in favor of airfare. And he clearly stated that only one court case was only about airfare, but without other particulars to determine if there was an underlying reason for not chargning the teacher. The rest had muddying elements, but could also be relevant, however we have no details or cites.)

Yes, you have to show the case the proves your proposition.

ontheway

Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...

Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 4:01 pm Post subject:

Everything is legal unless there is a law, rule or edict to make it illegal. If you cannot show a law, rule, edict or in this case a labor office ruling that a school cannot deduct airfare from final pay when a teacher fails to complete 6 months (or whatever is in the contract) then it is legal to do so.

reminiscink

Joined: 14 Apr 2014

Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:21 pm Post subject:

ontheway wrote:

reminiscink wrote:

ontheway wrote:

reminiscink wrote:

your first post on Dave's: Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:41 pm wrote:

Quote:

However, your original post had been quoted by Ttompatz, so it was still saved:

Quote:

http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=232445&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

Your posts on July 6th:

Quote:

http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=233502

Quote:

and

Quote:

HAAHAHAHAHAHA you sound ridiculous trying to sound intellegent.
Like I said, I worked as a teacher here and got screwed. I work part-time as a teacher now and helping flag with their website on the side. Again, I dont know what your problem is. Did I offend you in any way? This company clearly goes out of their way to help. That is all Im saying. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it themselves. I clearly see your argument, but again... this isnt an argument. You are obviously too cleaver for your own good and dont need a ham handed attempt. If you doubt me, why dont you call them and get some real education on the labor laws of Korea. I AM NOT AN ATTORNEY, RECRUITER, POLITIAN, NOR A PURVEYOR OF UNADULTERED BOVINE EXCREMENT... so again, I dont see your point in trying to sound far beyond what your intellect will allow. It was a clear act of sharing valuable information. Did I ask for your money? I never said you will get a return flight ticket to Kansas. The flight tickets are not legal binding in Korea and is considered a benefit, which the school uses to collect on promising teaching candidates. However, there are some cases when flight tickets can be included in the settlement.

Now, with that said, we can go about this in two ways where I can prove what I am saying by taking you to court for making false accusations regarding my logic and understanding of the Korean Labor decisions (which I clearly did not mention). The decisions they make are based on reports filed individually by normal helpless teachers who do not speak the language. It's like fighting an Army by yourself. Have you ever consider using a Korean Attorney? or are you just too brilliant and too proud to admit you are indeed without logic? Do you have any idea how many teachers here are getting screwed because of pseudointellectuals like yourself? I actually had my case resolved... easy or not, it was near impossible for me to do alone and I am completely satisfied with the outcome.

Since you like to sound so intellegent... here is proof that I can take you to court (Im sure even with stupidity, you can translate / comprehend this in your own way) Look up Korean law article 65 section 1 line 3. Cyber libel defamation of character (there, I took the time to translate the title for you)

Alternative scenario is for you to call directly and get yourself humbled with humiliation. Honestly, I dont care what you decided because you are so into your own logic of being without logic that you will never have any real understanding of anything. Simply put, you are so confused in your own world that you cant comprehend what I wrote. ONLY THING I DID WAS MENTION A GOOD ORGANIZATION.

According to you... those of us who are fired, burned, kicked to the curb, or whatever, should just MAN IT UP and go about our day. Because what I said was not credible. Only the things you say are credible because you know the ins and outs of Korean labor laws... interesting. I should've contacted you when I got laid off. Maybe you would've told me to just take it like a man and I would be out 5 mil (my settlement). Your argument, comment, and information is without proof, misrepresented, and false. I actually have proof~! what do you have? oh... that's right nothing!! because you are so smart, you just take it like a man.

alongway

Joined: 02 Jan 2012

Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:18 am Post subject:

ontheway wrote:

If you were anywhere near the realm of logic, you might be worth understanding. You never said that initially. You're back tracking now because you've been called out.

Once again we'll quote you:

Quote:

Now check Labor board decisions. When did a teacher recover for airfare that was deducted according to the contract from final pay?

It seems strange to me that you'd say this unless you had knowledge that this had been attempted and failed. Because so far you've indicated that you have no real sources for labour board cases beyond what gets posed here when people bring up things they've done. If you're just fishing for proof, the burden is on you. If you have knowledge that this was attempted and failed you could provide that case and we'd be done, but it seems you don't. Again we don't need one where a teacher was successful. We need a case where a teacher tried to recover it, regardless of the outcome, if they failed it would prove your point.

You're making this assertion based on information you haven't seen. For all you know there are hundreds of cases out there where teachers recovered their airfare. So again, the burden lies with you. Especially when we have someone speaking to cases they personally know and someone working with a law-group.

Quote:

You are just wrong. These deductions are taken all the time - including by the public schools, for airfare, apartment costs and damages, and recruiters fees if in the contract. Labor will not give you the money back and you will have no luck in court. Labor will not award you this money (unless there are other issues such as a serious contract violation by the employer that came first.)

Again, you're speaking in certainties as if you're completely aware of the outcome of cases regarding this kind of thing, but it seems you're not. It seems you have no source for cases and simply no knowledge of them at all. Logic isn't the only issue for you. You seem to fail on the most basic levels.

reminiscink

Joined: 14 Apr 2014

Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:44 pm Post subject:

alongway wrote:

ontheway wrote:

If you were anywhere near the realm of logic, you might be worth understanding. You never said that initially. You're back tracking now because you've been called out.

Once again we'll quote you:

Quote:

Now check Labor board decisions. When did a teacher recover for airfare that was deducted according to the contract from final pay?

Quote:

OMG this is hall of fame worthy... hahahaha seriously owned.

candy bar

Joined: 03 Dec 2012

Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:47 pm Post subject:

Have to admit, ontheway has been ripped to pieces on this on, as usual.

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