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jazzmaster
Joined: 30 Sep 2013
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 Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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| cam83 wrote: |
| robbie_davies wrote: |
| Stu_miller wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
| Stu_miller wrote: |
Be offended by society, not by comedy.
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Comedy is a reflection of society.
If a society finds ridiculing other races funny, it will be called "comedy".
Just saying something is "comedy" does not grant it an automatic free pass from criticism. Look at the actions within this "comedy". The "comedians" paint themselves black and then act animalistic and primitive (and the audience eats it up). It's dehumanization and ridicule. Huge difference between that and a Chris Rock or Louis CK skit, which basically examine race in society.
As far as using ignorance as an excuse, it's hard to know if Koreans simply don't realize they are being offensive, or simply don't care. Either way, the effect is almost the same. |
You ignored the fact that I said exactly this at the end of my last main paragraph. Fair enough, it was a lot of words to read.
The whole point is that I'm differentiating comedy in a comedy setting as opposed to a political leader's speech or something said with a serious motive.
If you read the words of Chris Rock or Louis CK without knowing the comedic context, the same people would be infinitely more offended. I repeat, comedy should never be taken seriously; could it be any more obvious within the name? Actually, being comedy does give it a free pass BUT then it is up to that society to judge and act. If people laugh and largely agree, then there will be a positive reaction and "bums on seats". If people are largely offended or just don't find it funny, then that will also be obvious. There is a huge distinction to be made between comedy and real life. |
Agreed, and your first post was excellent also.
It is all about context, comedy is context. The context of the Korean skit is that black people are subhuman. |
Plus... how many non-black comedians actually use the term? I can't think of many. Louis CK used it once (in a very careful/smart way - probably after consulting with Chris Rock tbh) but I can't think of any others. |
The context in which the words, or actions, are used is important.
An example might be Hurricane by Bob Dylan. He uses the word nigger but it is not meant to demean or insult people who are black.
Or white people playing Asian characters in movies, plays etc. From what I see nowadays the aim is not to insult or demean Asian people.
I would draw parallels to an American playing James Bond, or a non Scottish actor playing Macbeth.
But in the video mentioned in the OP the aim is to demean and dehumanize black people for an easy laugh.
This time it might be black people, but maybe next time it'll be white people, or mixed race people. And if we remain silent now then we set a precedent that demeaning and dehumanizing people is acceptable.
It might be acceptable for idiots like Fux, but it sure as shit isn't acceptable to me. |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Stu_miller wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
| Stu_miller wrote: |
Be offended by society, not by comedy.
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Comedy is a reflection of society.
If a society finds ridiculing other races funny, it will be called "comedy".
Just saying something is "comedy" does not grant it an automatic free pass from criticism. Look at the actions within this "comedy". The "comedians" paint themselves black and then act animalistic and primitive (and the audience eats it up). It's dehumanization and ridicule. Huge difference between that and a Chris Rock or Louis CK skit, which basically examine race in society.
As far as using ignorance as an excuse, it's hard to know if Koreans simply don't realize they are being offensive, or simply don't care. Either way, the effect is almost the same. |
You ignored the fact that I said exactly this at the end of my last main paragraph. Fair enough, it was a lot of words to read.
The whole point is that I'm differentiating comedy in a comedy setting as opposed to a political leader's speech or something said with a serious motive.
If you read the words of Chris Rock or Louis CK without knowing the comedic context, the same people would be infinitely more offended. I repeat, comedy should never be taken seriously; could it be any more obvious within the name? Actually, being comedy does give it a free pass BUT then it is up to that society to judge and act. If people laugh and largely agree, then there will be a positive reaction and "bums on seats". If people are largely offended or just don't find it funny, then that will also be obvious. There is a huge distinction to be made between comedy and real life. |
Not necessarily, and not in every case (imagine the jokes at a KKK rally). All comedy is... is a performance where someone presents ideas/viewpoints that may or may not be funny. The person's ideas/viewpoints and the ways they are presented can certainly be judged. If we can judge society, it follows we can also judge the 'comedy' within it.
But anyway, Robbie Davies nailed it pretty well:
"It is all about context, comedy is context. The context of the Korean skit is that black people are subhuman."
That right there should tell you about how this type of 'comedy' ranks. I give it a thumbs down. If some want to give it a free pass (because Koreans did it), then go ahead. (But, talk about the bigotry of low expectations; I guess we can't hold them to the same standards as everyone else in the modern world?) |
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byrddogs
Joined: 19 Jun 2009
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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I haven't been following this thread as much as I'd like to have, but did anyone ever answer this question? It's been tearing at me.
| SomeGuy wrote: |
| So can we get a ruling on white people performing The King & I, Madame Butterfly, and Miss Saigon. How many people here think those are offensive? I haven't seen people up in arms over those and the times they've had white people portraying Asians and the fact that quite a few in the Asian community find them stereotypical and offensive. |
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cam83
Joined: 27 Jan 2013
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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| byrddogs wrote: |
I haven't been following this thread as much as I'd like to have, but did anyone ever answer this question? It's been tearing at me.
| SomeGuy wrote: |
| So can we get a ruling on white people performing The King & I, Madame Butterfly, and Miss Saigon. How many people here think those are offensive? I haven't seen people up in arms over those and the times they've had white people portraying Asians and the fact that quite a few in the Asian community find them stereotypical and offensive. |
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The point has been made by several posters though, that cultural appropriation is not the same thing as dehumanizing an entire race of people. The latter doesn't apply to the examples above.
Surely it would be better to ask the target in question, which I suspect isn't many people in this thread. We can only speculate at best. |
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byrddogs
Joined: 19 Jun 2009
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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| cam83 wrote: |
| byrddogs wrote: |
I haven't been following this thread as much as I'd like to have, but did anyone ever answer this question? It's been tearing at me.
| SomeGuy wrote: |
| So can we get a ruling on white people performing The King & I, Madame Butterfly, and Miss Saigon. How many people here think those are offensive? I haven't seen people up in arms over those and the times they've had white people portraying Asians and the fact that quite a few in the Asian community find them stereotypical and offensive. |
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The point has been made by several posters though, that cultural appropriation is not the same thing as dehumanizing an entire race of people. The latter doesn't apply to the examples above.
Surely it would be better to ask the target in question, which I suspect isn't many people in this thread. We can only speculate at best. |
Wasn't this thread started to point out that something that Koreans had done (once again) to try and be funny to other Koreans without thought of anything otherwise that it might be offensive? When and where did it turn into a comparison to The King & I, Madame Butterfly, and Miss Saigon? |
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cam83
Joined: 27 Jan 2013
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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| byrddogs wrote: |
| cam83 wrote: |
| byrddogs wrote: |
I haven't been following this thread as much as I'd like to have, but did anyone ever answer this question? It's been tearing at me.
| SomeGuy wrote: |
| So can we get a ruling on white people performing The King & I, Madame Butterfly, and Miss Saigon. How many people here think those are offensive? I haven't seen people up in arms over those and the times they've had white people portraying Asians and the fact that quite a few in the Asian community find them stereotypical and offensive. |
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The point has been made by several posters though, that cultural appropriation is not the same thing as dehumanizing an entire race of people. The latter doesn't apply to the examples above.
Surely it would be better to ask the target in question, which I suspect isn't many people in this thread. We can only speculate at best. |
Wasn't this thread started to point out that something that Koreans had done (once again) to try and be funny to other Koreans without thought of anything otherwise that it might be offensive? When and where did it turn into a comparison to The King & I, Madame Butterfly, and Miss Saigon? |
Yeah you're right, I actually thought the question above was raised by SR a few pages back and it had been addressed (as to whether it was wrong or not), though I don't think anyone answered the specific question you bolded precisely bcos most of us aren't in a position to say/judge whether it's offensive to the intended target or not. |
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cbmufc
Joined: 17 Jun 2014
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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Not gonna get into these tit-for-tat arguments. black-face comedy is very disgusting to me, as an American. But at the same time, Korean comedy as well as racial tolerance/sensitivity, is obviously behind the countries we are from.
I remember when I was living in Korea one of the things I missed most about the US, was comedy. I missed watching stand-up comedy, a lot of the tv shows, and even the stupid potty humor like Jackass. Korean comedy is still very slap-stick and at the elementary stages. I've watched a couple of the Korean SNL episodes and it wasn't all that funny. It was trying too hard to be sexually explicit. I do think they're making the right steps though. Remember that for a long time you couldn't mock political figures, celebrities, etc. in Korea because it was a military dictatorship. While back home we have dozens of shows like Colbert Report, MadTV, Daily Show that regularly make fun of presidents and other powerful/famous figures.
I do think Americans in particular are very over-the-board PC. Running around acting crazy with black-face is still very bad though. I think eventually people in Korea will move away from the gag-concert style slap-stick comedy and realize how unfunny black-face comedy is. And with people, black or otherwise, speaking out against it hopefully they become more sensitive to people of other backgrounds. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:37 am Post subject: |
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| byrddogs wrote: |
| cam83 wrote: |
| byrddogs wrote: |
I haven't been following this thread as much as I'd like to have, but did anyone ever answer this question? It's been tearing at me.
| SomeGuy wrote: |
| So can we get a ruling on white people performing The King & I, Madame Butterfly, and Miss Saigon. How many people here think those are offensive? I haven't seen people up in arms over those and the times they've had white people portraying Asians and the fact that quite a few in the Asian community find them stereotypical and offensive. |
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The point has been made by several posters though, that cultural appropriation is not the same thing as dehumanizing an entire race of people. The latter doesn't apply to the examples above.
Surely it would be better to ask the target in question, which I suspect isn't many people in this thread. We can only speculate at best. |
Wasn't this thread started to point out that something that Koreans had done (once again) to try and be funny to other Koreans without thought of anything otherwise that it might be offensive? When and where did it turn into a comparison to The King & I, Madame Butterfly, and Miss Saigon? |
The point of bringing up those classics was not to make a direct comparison and say they are alike, but to demonstrate how people dressing up as other cultures can be offensive but the people doing it and watching may not be aware that its offensive, as well as to show how people cling to outdated portrayals even in the face of changing standards.
Some people, including Asians, have no problem with Madame Butterfly or Breakfast at Tiffany's or at most disapprove but shrug. Others have a serious problem with it and think they are highly offensive. But there are plenty of people who are completely unaware about such things and watch those and consider them timeless classics. |
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sligo
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 7:31 am Post subject: |
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It is not the Korean attitude to black people per se, it is the Korean attitude to non - Koreans. I suppose "blacking up" is easier than "whiting down?"
I am white, and i get stared at every day, not a glance, but "movie of the week, don't blink or you shall miss something, 360 degree show" staring. Sometimes it is with a look of puzzlement, but more often than not, the disgust on the faces of the ajumas and ajeoshies makes me feel less than worthless. What right do they have to judge in this way?
Then there are the occasssions in the supermarket where the ajeoshi commands his children to "go to the foreigner and practice your English"! That's right, you do not know me, i do not teach you children, but i am here at you beck and call to give my time for you to boast in the sublime way your sexcrement can say" Hi, nice to meet you (you didn't meet me - a meeting is a mutual exchange of information) Where are you from?"
I speak Korean, not as well as i should, but well enough to understand a lot of what is being said. Enough to know that when i ask a question (in Korean) and you give the answer to my (Korean) wife, that it is rude. That when i ask how much something is, and you type out on a calculator and point (without saying a single word - you understood my question) that is rude. When you have your head burried into your phone as i walk into your shop and you greet the unknown person with "come in quickly", that is polite, but when you tear your face from the screen of your phone and see a non-Korean and slap your hand over your face, turn to a colleague and laugh hysterically in embarassment and scream "oh my god, he's a foreigner" When i am next to you, that is incredibly rude. Customer service must be for a select audience!
You see, we are all looked down upon, it is just that with the Korean desire for paler skin, that kind of takes the comedy value from our (caucasion) appearance and Black skin becomes a very easy target |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:18 am Post subject: |
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| robbie_davies wrote: |
| It is all about context, comedy is context. The context of the Korean skit is that black people are subhuman. |
How do you make the leap from African tribesman to all black people? Moreover, what leads you to believe this is intended to dehumanize anyone?
I take it none of you hysterical crusaders have seen any of the shows featuring Yoo Jaesuk and No Hongchul in which the simple act of donning an ajumma wig is reason enough to have half a dozen or so rewind close-ups complete with looped laughtrack. This is the state of popular Korean comedy: shallow and childish.
I'd be willing to bet that if a white guy were to appear on one of these gag shows dressed up as a Korean, the results would be largely the same. He'd stand there in his costume, the crowd would roar, he'd say something silly, and the crowd would roar louder. And none of you would bat an eye. |
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robbie_davies
Joined: 16 Jun 2013
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="geldedgoat"]
| robbie_davies wrote: |
It is all about context, comedy is context. The context of the Korean skit is that black people are subhuman.
How do you make the leap from African tribesman to all black people? Moreover, what leads you to believe this is intended to dehumanize anyone? |
Living on planet Korea, there are two things you find out about the general view on race realtions and the world at large, 'dirty skin' people are just one big blob of subhumanity that is there to be mocked or to feel superior to. And they would have a big problem of recognizing anywhere on the map other than Japan, China and Meiguk land.
As if the average Korean could tell the difference between a Xhosa, a Somalian, a Fijian or a Papuan from an urbanite African American. Haven't you been there for over 10 years and you coming out with the above?  |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
| robbie_davies wrote: |
| It is all about context, comedy is context. The context of the Korean skit is that black people are subhuman. |
How do you make the leap from African tribesman to all black people? Moreover, what leads you to believe this is intended to dehumanize anyone?
I take it none of you hysterical crusaders have seen any of the shows featuring Yoo Jaesuk and No Hongchul in which the simple act of donning an ajumma wig is reason enough to have half a dozen or so rewind close-ups complete with looped laughtrack. This is the state of popular Korean comedy: shallow and childish.
I'd be willing to bet that if a white guy were to appear on one of these gag shows dressed up as a Korean, the results would be largely the same. He'd stand there in his costume, the crowd would roar, he'd say something silly, and the crowd would roar louder. And none of you would bat an eye. |
If the guy put on yellow make-up, fake buck teeth, taped his eyes half-shut, then started jumping around and acting like an idiot, yelling "Hee-yaaaah! Ching-chang! Ding-dong!" ... Then I'm sure plenty would have a problem with it. Wouldn't you?
The point is, that kind of 'comedy' is basically ridiculing a race/group of people as though they are primitive and stupid. Dehumanizing.
If you want to claim they are ONLY making fun of African tribesmen, then it would be interesting to see more reasons why that might be the case. Even IF the intended target was African tribesmen, it's still a pretty blurry line.
I agree with you that most Korean humor is shallow and childish. It's basically like clown humor: totally slapstick with pies in the face. In that context, blackface must seem almost risqué or clever to them. But for the rest of us... not so much. |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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| sligo wrote: |
It is not the Korean attitude to black people per se, it is the Korean attitude to non - Koreans. I suppose "blacking up" is easier than "whiting down?"
I am white, and i get stared at every day, not a glance, but "movie of the week, don't blink or you shall miss something, 360 degree show" staring. Sometimes it is with a look of puzzlement, but more often than not, the disgust on the faces of the ajumas and ajeoshies makes me feel less than worthless. What right do they have to judge in this way?
Then there are the occasssions in the supermarket where the ajeoshi commands his children to "go to the foreigner and practice your English"! That's right, you do not know me, i do not teach you children, but i am here at you beck and call to give my time for you to boast in the sublime way your sexcrement can say" Hi, nice to meet you (you didn't meet me - a meeting is a mutual exchange of information) Where are you from?"
I speak Korean, not as well as i should, but well enough to understand a lot of what is being said. Enough to know that when i ask a question (in Korean) and you give the answer to my (Korean) wife, that it is rude. That when i ask how much something is, and you type out on a calculator and point (without saying a single word - you understood my question) that is rude. When you have your head burried into your phone as i walk into your shop and you greet the unknown person with "come in quickly", that is polite, but when you tear your face from the screen of your phone and see a non-Korean and slap your hand over your face, turn to a colleague and laugh hysterically in embarassment and scream "oh my god, he's a foreigner" When i am next to you, that is incredibly rude. Customer service must be for a select audience!
You see, we are all looked down upon, it is just that with the Korean desire for paler skin, that kind of takes the comedy value from our (caucasion) appearance and Black skin becomes a very easy target |
Agreed. There is a tendency for Koreans to ridicule/disrespect all non-Koreans, not just blacks. I've been called "vampire", "ghost", been stared at like I'm subhuman trash, while they grumble "bekinsaram ...blah blah", but still whites rank a bit higher than most other groups on the Korean totem pole, so they simply aren't going to get much sympathy on this issue. Anyway, most Korean reactions I get these days are positive.
Actually, if Koreans did do a "white-face" skit, I'm guessing almost nobody on here would be against it, and some might even pull a 180 and applaud the action. (right, cam83? )
But just for consistency sake, if it's wrong to ridicule/dehumanize one race/group, then it's wrong for all of them. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Mix1 wrote: |
Actually, if Koreans did do a "white-face" skit, I'm guessing almost nobody on here would be against it, and some might even pull a 180 and applaud the action. (right, cam83?) |
Well, I do remember people telling me how bad and wrong I was for suggesting that Japanese whiteface advertisement some time back was fine, so I'm sure at least someone here would speak up about Koreans doing the same thing. I assume Cam would just say that it's up to Whites to decide what is offensive to Whites. I for one would be fine with Koreans occasionally doing some whiteface jokes. If they were constantly engaging in this kind of thing regarding some group or another then it would probably be indicative of some weird fixation, but being able to occasionally joke around about other groups is natural enough, and the absence of political-correctness hysteria is healthy. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Mix1 wrote: |
If the guy put on yellow make-up, fake buck teeth, taped his eyes half-shut, then started jumping around and acting like an idiot, yelling "Hee-yaaaah! Ching-chang! Ding-dong!" ... Then I'm sure plenty would have a problem with it. Wouldn't you?
The point is, that kind of 'comedy' is basically ridiculing a race/group of people as though they are primitive and stupid. Dehumanizing.
If you want to claim they are ONLY making fun of African tribesmen, then it would be interesting to see more reasons why that might be the case. Even IF the intended target was African tribesmen, it's still a pretty blurry line.
I agree with you that most Korean humor is shallow and childish. It's basically like clown humor: totally slapstick with pies in the face. In that context, blackface must seem almost risqué or clever to them. But for the rest of us... not so much. |
Not sure about the white person dressing up as a Korean and acting idiotic would be all that condemned if it was done on a Korean show. I'm not sure you can really use it as a standard. It's like if Bill Burr was in blackface on Chappelle Show. No one would object because it was done "in house".
And again Korean humor on the family show Gag Concert, a show that doesn't really have a parallel, at least in the US, is going to obviously trend towards the simple as it is intended for all ages and viewpoints. It's not something that is shown at 11PM or that parents will run to change the channel on if their kids watch. You can't compare it to Carlin or Chris Rock and say that Korean humor is worse. I guess the closest you could compare it to would be Funniest Home Videos or TGIF on ABC during the 90s, you know Perfect Strangers, Family Matters, Full House, and so on. Oh look at Balki, he talks funny. Look at Urkel, he's a nerd. Oh look at the Olsen twins, they're cute. Look at Bob Saget on Full House and Funniest Home Videos vs. Bob Saget's standup (lame, clean, and simplistic vs. hilarious and dirty). Gotta compare Apples to Apples. It would be like using Paul Blartt as an example of comedy in American movies. It's a clean family movie, not some R-rated extreme humor movie.
Better Korean humor is usually found in movies, particularly darker ones and can be rather dry, quirky, and absurdist. Much more likely to feature clever word play and witty lines. Of course these are movies for adults, not families and kids. |
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