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Do You Need To Speak Korean To Teach English In Korea?
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isitts

Joined: 25 Dec 2008
Location: Korea

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:06 pm Post subject:

le-paul wrote:

jvalmer wrote:

Yes, i do, and I know they studied English at university and/or school (French/spanish/polish/german/Italians/Indians etc.).

I like your sample size though (as well as your speculatory evidence).

I suppose, then, if they hadn’t studied at a university, they couldn’t possibly have learned English (or the other languages mentioned)? I like your bias.

le-paul wrote:

Just remember grammar isn't important next time a student tells you she's boring.

That’s not a problem with grammar. It’s a problem with her thinking in her L1 and trying to translate it. I already explained this kind of problem with translation before and I've given a similar example to yours a few posts up with “borrow” and “loan”.

Stu_miller

Joined: 23 Apr 2014

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:43 pm Post subject:

[quote="isitts"]

le-paul wrote:

Just remember grammar isn't important next time a student tells you she's boring.

The issue of transferring from L1-L2 is based in grammar. as well as the use of appropriate vocabulary. If she is just translating word for word from her L1, it is because she is not aware of, or not willing to use, the correct English grammar involved. That is why grammar should be taught alongside contexts and vocabulary. Otherwise you're just producing student automatons who repeat certain phrases in certain situations, but are unable to interact fully and will really struggle when any unexpected variety is introduced into those situations.

nicwr2002

Joined: 17 Aug 2011

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:48 pm Post subject:

When I first started learning Japanese, before I made it my major, I was taught using the situation method. After passing the beginner classes I found that I didn't know how to construct my own sentences because I didn't know the grammar. When I changed colleges and made Japanese my major, this new college taught Japanese grammar. After that I was able to construct my own sentences and start developing intuition using the language. So, I believe teaching students grammar is essential in their ability to effectively communicate to native speakers. On a side note, someone mentioned that people don't learn grammar when learning your own language, but I was taught grammar in grade school.

le-paul

Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:10 pm Post subject:

isitts wrote:

le-paul wrote:

jvalmer wrote:

Yes, i do, and I know they studied English at university and/or school (French/spanish/polish/german/Italians/Indians etc.).

I like your sample size though (as well as your speculatory evidence).

I suppose, then, if they hadn’t studied at a university, they couldn’t possibly have learned English (or the other languages mentioned)? I like your bias.

le-paul wrote:

Just remember grammar isn't important next time a student tells you she's boring.

It isnt bias, i was merely responding to a specific question. I also didn't say that they all studied at uni., I mentioned school. I also did not say that it was the only way possible.
Stop being childish and trying to pick an argument. Its incredibly puerile.

Do you have any evidence its her translating into her L1 or are you speculating too?

isitts

Joined: 25 Dec 2008
Location: Korea

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:19 pm Post subject:

Stu_miller wrote:

It's precisely because it is out of context that they must be provided with that context, which is founded in grammar.

Context is not founded in grammar. Grammar is merely a tool that expresses context (or our perception of context). In other words, grammar expresses a way of thinking.

So, no, the transfer from L1 to L2 is not based in grammar, it’s based in her way of thinking and how she’s accustomed to expressing that way of thinking. And you need only ask a few contextual questions to get her thinking in L2. Of course, the correct form has to be taught, but…this is feeling like an infinite regress. I think we’re arguing two sides of the same coin, or how exactly the grammar is taught; explained in technical terms, or referenced with contextual examples and having it intuitively understood.

So, I don’t think I have much against what you’ve said, Stu, other than context being founded in grammar, or your notion that context without academic grammatical lessons create automatons. I think quite the opposite; it’s the mechanical grammatical lessons that create the automatons. I formally studied Japanese for three years and knew proper grammar, but it didn’t help me much when I was living in Japan. I was often corrected on how to speak normally. Scales before the jazz, perhaps, but, I think (and this is the 3rd or 4th time mentioning in this thread) the age group you’re teaching makes a difference. My little kids pick this stuff up really quickly without any knowledge of formal grammatical structure. But for my adult students in Taiwan, they wanted specific grammatical answers (as in, explicitly explained).

isitts

Joined: 25 Dec 2008
Location: Korea

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:23 pm Post subject:

nicwr2002 wrote:

When I first started learning Japanese, before I made it my major, I was taught using the situation method. After passing the beginner classes I found that I didn't know how to construct my own sentences because I didn't know the grammar. When I changed colleges and made Japanese my major, this new college taught Japanese grammar. After that I was able to construct my own sentences and start developing intuition using the language.

And when you went to Japan and started speaking to people?

nicwr2002 wrote:

On a side note, someone mentioned that people don't learn grammar when learning your own language, but I was taught grammar in grade school.

So was I. But my point was that it was explained in a language you already knew. By the time you were formally taught grammar, it was more fine-tuning.

isitts

Joined: 25 Dec 2008
Location: Korea

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:47 pm Post subject:

le-paul wrote:

Stop being childish and trying to pick an argument. Its incredibly puerile.

? You were the one picking apart jvalmer’s comment.

le-paul wrote:

Do you have any evidence its her translating into her L1 or are you speculating too?

This is back on topic. The evidence comes from knowing (at least a little) Korean. She would just say “재미없어” or just “not fun”. The idea of specifying who is not having fun or what is not fun is unimportant in Korean because it’s implied. As for boring vs. bored, those specific terms don’t exist (or if they do, they aren’t much used) in her language so she’d be taking a guess with “I am boring.” But this problem arises in the first place from a different way of thinking, not because they just don’t know grammar. Thant’s my point.

I’m not trying to pick apart anyone’s arguments. This is an interesting discussion. And as I said to Stu, I feel like we’re kind of arguing two sides of the same coin. The grammar has to be taught but disagreeing on whether it's taught implicitly (in context) or explicitly (grammatical explanation).

SeoulNate

Joined: 04 Jun 2010
Location: Hyehwa

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:53 pm Post subject:

jvalmer wrote:

Any of you guys know any immigrants with really good English back home?

Ask them if they thought of grammar when learning English. Most will say 'No'. They just repeated patterns, and picked up words and phrases along the way.

Confidence is a huge factor, basically not being afraid to look like a dumb-arse and keep on rephrasing something until they are understood. Kind of like that Japanese baseball player for the Blue Jays. He's doesn't care how bad he looks, and who laughs at him. But he keeps plugging away.

ESL=/=EFL

Quote:

And yet, he just communicated with you in English. How was that possible if he doesn’t understand English grammar? (...or, how was it possible in spite of his not understanding English grammar?)

because this kind of teaching does not help students learn on their own. Classroom English instruction in Korea is enough to get the students 25% of the way there, the rest is up to them. They need the tools to get there, grammar is one of those tools.

Quote:

For the reason I mentioned.

Bzz. try again. They don't teach grammar because they can't, they themselves do not understand the concept of it.

Quote:

When I studied Japanese in high school, I was taught/explained that the subject in a sentence is generally implied and doesn’t need to be stated and that it was often rude. But that made no sense to me (as I was thinking in English) and I had a hard time imagining (in my L1) how I would communicate without stating the subject. But when I was in Japan, I found I got along fine without it because context took care of that. Somehow, it made sense in Japanese.

Excellent work disproving your own earlier sentiments.

Quote:

The Japanese, for their part, don’t like stating the subject even when speaking English But understanding our rules of grammar (the passive voice), are able to bypass that problem by speaking in the passive voice (“The glass was picked up.” Instead of “I, s/he, or someone unknown out of context picked up the glass.”) But how does that really help them communicate in spite of it being grammatically correct?

Own question answered already, what was the point of that?

Quote:

In Korean, the words “loan” and “borrow” are the same word. How do rules of grammar help you there? Thinking in English, that doesn’t make sense. But in context, it’s fine. If the person has the item in question, they are borrowing it. If the person doesn’t have the item in questions, they’ve loaned it out to someone else. There may also be grammatical structures to specify whether the thing is loaned or borrowed, but it starts with a different way of thinking.

Bzz. Incorrect again. Korean has a different word entirely, which doesn't mean exactly either one. English has two totally different words. You need to be able to wrap your head around this concept to be able to teach EFL effectively.

Anyway, we are a long way off topic.

My short answer to the OP question: Does one to speak Korean to be an effective teacher here? It depends on your definition of effective, but certainly the more Korean you gain the better you will be able to serve as an effective teacher here. However, with that said I would say that teaching methodology and skills are more important than the language.

nicwr2002

Joined: 17 Aug 2011

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:08 pm Post subject:

isitts wrote:

nicwr2002 wrote:

And when you went to Japan and started speaking to people?

nicwr2002 wrote:

On a side note, someone mentioned that people don't learn grammar when learning your own language, but I was taught grammar in grade school.

So was I. But my point was that it was explained in a language you already knew. By the time you were formally taught grammar, it was more fine-tuning.

Before I learned Japanese grammar, I couldn't communicate with my teacher beyond the phrases that we had to memorize in class. After learning the grammar structure at a different college, I was able to speak better to my teacher. This also helped me tremendously when I studied in Japan for a year as well.

Of course this works better for older learners and not kids. Kids who haven't learned their own grammar structures yet will have a difficult time understanding a different grammar structure. I think grammar is a foundation that you can start building from to effectively be able to communicate with someone fluently. If you don't know where to put the words in a sentence, how can you speak clearly to someone? That's just my opinion on the matter.

Stu_miller

Joined: 23 Apr 2014

Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:05 am Post subject:

isitts wrote:

Stu_miller wrote:

It's precisely because it is out of context that they must be provided with that context, which is founded in grammar.

I agree that I could have expressed that in a better way. The point I was trying to make is that it's difficult to teach one with the other, above kindergarten grade. You're right that age and level certainly matters, and I think I mentioned earlier about grammar needing to be appropriate. In the kindergarten age group, they don't need to be learning about grammar (sentence word order, yes; grammatical terms, no). After that, they should start learning basic grammatical structures and terminology as soon as possible, in my opinion. Not in the way that non-native grammar teachers mostly do it (ie, head-bangingly intensive and dull), but in conjunction with interesting and relative contexts and vocab situations.

However, I still think that grammar is essential in L1-L2 transfer. If you don't know the relevant L2 grammar, how can you be confident in accurately transferring from the gramatically different L1? Contextual questions alone will not elicit correct grammar is the student hasn't been taught it. I don't think grammar is the be all and end all, but I do believe it to be an essential component in this process. If it's taught too late, then there are too many bad habits to eradicate and knowledge to catch up on, imo.

le-paul

Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre

Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:12 am Post subject:

And also getting back on track, Id be interested to know how many people who are saying it isnt necessary to speak Korean, have actually studied a language with a native teacher (of that language), and the teacher never spoke a word of English or translated in the classroom.

edwardcatflap

Joined: 22 Mar 2009

Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:40 am Post subject:

Quote:

And also getting back on track, Id be interested to know how many people who are saying it isnt necessary to speak Korean, have actually studied a language with a native teacher (of that language), and the teacher never spoke a word of English or translated in the classroom.

Anyone who's done the CELTA would've experienced this as it's part of the course. I learned Arabic for a few lessons and found it very difficult without any English. That's why I would recommend a beginner's class to have a teacher who knows some L1, to avoid demotivation. Having said that, one of the reasons why I found it so difficult was the teacher wasn't very good, although I didn't realise that at the time because I hadn't been trained yet

I also learned Korean at Sookmyung University where the teachers don't use any English after two terms. This makes sense too because the classes are mixed nationality. It was fine by me. When I taught adults in Korea from elementary upwards there were quite often mixed nationality classes, with Russians, Arab speakers, Italians etc.. from various embassies. They had no interest in learning Korean even though they were in the country and it would have been completely inappropriate for me to start using it in that context.

A lot of people on this board have been teaching monolingual classes for years and years at universities/public schools while fine tuning their teaching Koreans in Korean skills. They'd probably fall flat on their faces if they had to face a multi-lingual EFL class

mithridates

Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency

Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 3:58 am Post subject:

le-paul wrote:

SeoulNate wrote:

Which is why people are struggling to learn languages which are not intuitively similar to their own.

Grammar knowledge is a must-have in my book.

Absolutely.

I believe if you dont understand how your own grammar works, its difficult to learn other languages as well as teaching your own. The more I learn my own grammar and that of the languages Im learning, the more i realise this.

Came across this book a few years ago for cheap and it says pretty much the same thing:

http://www.amazon.com/Read-Write-Speak-French-Brunetti/dp/0553231634

The first few chapters are a review of English grammar to prepare the student for French, with the writer saying time and time again things like "be sure you understand the difference between a (some grammar thing) and a (some other grammar thing). If you don't, you will waste your time and get nowhere".

cabeza

Joined: 29 Sep 2012

Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:41 am Post subject:

le-paul wrote:

Diving in with absolute zero knowledge on day one learning in a language in other than their own would be a very rare situation, especially in Korea.

I learnt Spanish at uni for two years. The first semester the teachers switched between English and Spanish so that everyone got the basic foundations of the language down. After that it was total immersion with a strict no English rule. It was ridiculously frustrating at times, but it forced me to speak, becuase if you didnt speak you got left behind. Also if you failed one of the higher classes you had to go back and repeat the class you previously passed.

Like the guy above said, working in ESL you are often in multi-lingual classes. The school I worked at before coming to Korea would have a minimum of four nationalities and usually closer to 7 or 8. It's sink or swim for the teacher and the students. I've seen plenty of teachers sink faster than the students too.

SeoulNate

Joined: 04 Jun 2010
Location: Hyehwa

Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:48 pm Post subject:

le-paul wrote:

I've studied through immersion before; there are pros and cons with it just like with any methodology. Doesn't work too well for me as a learner, but it totally depends on the learner IMO.

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