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NYT article: South Korea’s Education System Hurts Students
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Chaparrastique

Joined: 01 Jan 2014

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:11 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Surprising as it may be to English ears, many Koreans come to the UK in the first place not only to learn the language, but specifically to get themselves - or their children - into the British education system.

That is what Jieun Park of the tuition support company Unimaster tells me: "The curriculum is viewed as strong. There is more sports, more art and drama."

And she says Koreans value the less prescriptive British approach to teaching. "Koreans typically know the answers. But they do not understand the theories behind them."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12170151

Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:35 am Post subject:

Quote:

Korea is good at specializing in a few sports to maximize their medal count at the Olympics. Sports like archery. Thus, they get more medals than say Australia or France. That doesn't mean they have a more active sporting culture, though.

But the evidence doesn't support your assertion. There is a fair degree of diversity there.

Quote:

You said Korea has won tons of medals in swimming, baseball and soccer. That has been proven to be false. In fact, winning just over double digits (11-14) in some events hardly means they have a strong tradition in those sports, but I let it go.

No, I listed swimming and soccer as being among the medals they've won in. Go back and read. I mentioned how winning two in baseball would be equivalent of winning a lot given that it is a team sport and one that wasn't in that many Olympics.

And yes, a lot of those sports are European imports, many of which require people to be wealthy. Given that Korea's history, obviously they don't have the tradition in those sports that other countries do, but that doesn't mean that now today there isn't a sporting culture here.

Quote:

You also said countries that specialize don't get a lot of medals, i.e. over 5 max. I proved that wrong, too, with Jamaica, NZ and East African nations.

Well it depends on what they specialize in. Events such as running where there's a bunch of events and they can have multiple entrants, yes. However archery or shooting can't get you near the medal haul that those will, which were the sports in question.

Quote:

Yes, because you're such an expert in everything you even know more about my school than I do!

No, I don't know more about your school, but I am wondering about your school? Is it in Seoul? Does it have a gym? How many students? And maybe they DO offer sports and you've just missed it in the Korean.

Quote:

Yeah, but you seem to change jobs every couple of days, hell even hours, depending on what the thread is about. Still flying commercial jets there in your spare time?

I NEVER claimed to fly jets. I said I grew up flying with my parents, which some stupid people took to mean that I claimed I flew around in their private jet or was a 747 pilot because they suck at reading comprehension.

BlackCat, I've been on here for 5 years. During the first 5 I would often post about "my school", only this year have I mentioned anything relating to working for the military. I haven't changed jobs every few days, you just seem to get so full of froth and foam that your mind runs wild and instead of rationally sorting things out and paying close attention to what I write, you go with the first thought that pops in your head.

Quote:

You believe France and Germany handle sports the same way as Korea does? *falls off chair* I'm not even going to respond to this.

I didn't say the SAME, I said that they were much closer to each other than to say, North America, based on the information I've read.

Quote:

Germans are incredibly sporty. Each kid in high school I knew belonged to a club and played multiple sports extensively. I did when I was a student there. I played in 2 bezirkoberligas. I know what I'm talking about here. You clearly don't.

Exactly, that was my point- German schools seemed to emphasize the club vs. the school team. The extent to which students play sports may differ, but the structure seems to be similar.

Quote:

It is after the age of 13/14 in Korea that things start to suck. You simply can't cram in hagwons, go to PS and play in competitive sports leagues. That is UNLESS you are plucked for it. This is what you DO NOT understand. It has nothing to do with sports obsession. It has to do with having a well balanced active lifestyle. Korean teenagers (especially girls which you will not acknowledge in this back and forth) don't get that even if they wanted to

Funny, I guess my friend who taught at the HS in my town was full of crap when he talked about the number of soccer clubs at his school, the basketball clubs, volleyball, badminton, tennis, golf, etc. And ALL OF THOSE HAD GIRLS PROGRAMS. I guess we were hallucinating when HS kids would play on all the different pitches around town and we'd sometimes draft a few to fill out our team. I guess I was dreaming about all the students playing tennis or pickup baseball or basketball or people in the park playing badminton or everyone playing volleyball or going bowling or the high schoolers swarming the pool halls, etc. etc.

Quote:

Canadians and other nordic countries excel at winter sports BECAUSE THERE IS A WINTER SPORTING CULTURE. A kid is expected to be able to skate when they're 5. People grow up on skis. The average joe can identify with their athletes because they did those sports too. Koreans DO NOT have this culture no matter how much you prattle on about how there is a skating club in your school. Sure they can groom a batch of kids and East German style get them pumped up (much like their short track program)to win biathalon and free style and dominate pyongchang but does that make Korea a winter sporting nation? Absolutely not.

Ugh, this crap again. Our poor, noble, regular joe first-world athletes who live completely normal lives except for being phenomenally good at sports vs. the engineered and manufactured robots of Eastern Europe and Asia. That's utter garbage, incredibly naive regarding yourself, insulting to those countries and their people, insulting to their athletes, dehumanizing, and borderline bigoted. This is akin to the "culture and disaster" questions that always get tossed around. When Americans or Canadians have an accident or someone goes crazy, there's no questions regarding culture (at most its "a culture of violence", not CANADIAN CULTURE), similarly they seem to get a free pass on anything regarding athletics. If a person from Eastern Europe or Asia wins, they get their achievements dismissed as being from some "athletic academy" or their country just focuses on this sport. Underlying it all is some view that Eastern Europeans/Asians are inherently inferior and the only way they can possibly beat us is if they resort to sports gulags. We feel entitled to those medals and when we don't get them we fall back on the narrative of "poor little us". Of course if a bunch of our athletes get busted for doping that's just on those individual athletes, but it shouldn't taint our country's reputation as a whole. However if an East German gets busted, then they are ALL guilty.

People go on and on about Koreans being sore losers, but man there sure seems to be some of that here. The sports gulaged and roided Koreans and East Germans beat your academy, state scholarship, corporate sponsored, and finest roids money can buy, athletes fair and square. Stop whining.

Koreans do not have a TRADITION of those things because the average Korean was too poor to even afford to do those things until recently. But now people are able to afford to buy their kids ice skates and skis. Look at all the people at ice skating rinks and skiing at Muju and rollerblading and the like. Koreans now have the ability to afford those things and to engage in leisure activities, expensive ones too.

What do you mean that Koreans can't identify with them? Do you know how many Koreans play tennis, golf, basketball, soccer, baseball, badminton, table tennis, and do things like swim, ski, skate, lift weights, do taekwondo or judo, or do Korean traditional archery? There's clubs and people who do those things all over Korea. Some of them by the millions.

Do you think Koreans have no idea what its like to ice skate or ski? Do you think all those Western European or Canadian ski champions didn't spend hours each day at ski academies which require tons of money to attend?

cabeza

Joined: 29 Sep 2012

Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:02 am Post subject:

I think both SR and Blackcat raise valid points. I don't think it's unfair to say Korea doesn't have a strong sporting culture. It's not a bad thing. It's just that their focus is put into other things especially during the teenage years and working years. When I was a kid from age 11 to 18 you HAD to be in a school sporting team. As in twice weekly practices and games on Saturday for 6 months of the years. You had no choice unless there was a medical excuse. A lot of that same age group in Korea don't play sports. Escpecially high school kids. There just isn't any time for it. Also social leagues are much more common back home for adults over 25. In the evenings and weekends its pretty common to see mixed touch rugby games being played at suburban parks. I know similar things (not rugby obviously) exist here, but again, long working hours etc, kind of make it a lot more difficult. So its not as common. Korea obviously does well at the olympics. The spread of sports is a little narrower than some countries. Korea has gold medals in 15 sports. Australia has gold in 18. So its a pretty small gap really. But the Olympics don't neccessarily reflect a nations "Sporting culture". They reflect resource allocation and training. As China (and America) show.

byrddogs

Joined: 19 Jun 2009
Location: Shanghai

Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 2:06 am Post subject:

3DR wrote:

I love it when posters throw out the apologist card when they can't make a coherent argument. It's funny seeing blackcat get upset when he gets called out on his BS. Or if you respectfully disagree with him, he keeps on whining. Keep whining you big baby. Laughing

It's a little like the hit and run dudes (like yourself) that come in and coat tail on the backs of others, right?

3DR

Joined: 24 May 2009

Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 2:12 am Post subject:

byrddogs wrote:

3DR wrote:

It's a little like the hit and run dudes (like yourself) that come in and coat tail on the backs of others, right?

You sound confused Surprised

byrddogs

Joined: 19 Jun 2009
Location: Shanghai

Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 2:16 am Post subject:

3DR wrote:

byrddogs wrote:

3DR wrote:

It's a little like the hit and run dudes (like yourself) that come in and coat tail on the backs of others, right?

You sound confused Surprised

Not at all. Your gimmick is quite obvious.

Mr. BlackCat

Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE

Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 3:23 am Post subject:

Quote:

Korea has medaled and done fine at Judo, Wrestling, Badminton, Shooting, Boxing, Weightlifting, Swimming, Gymnastics, Fencing, Table Tennis, Handball, Baseball, and Soccer.

Swimming: 4 medals, one guy, and virtually no other competitors at the elite level.

Soccer: 1 medal.

Baseball: 2 medals.

Gymnastics: 9 medals. Ok, not bad, but hardly great.

Everything else I agreed with.

Quote:

Specialized countries usually end up with like 5 medals tops

As per London 2012:

Jamaica 12 medals all in sprints.

Cuba 15 medals, 2/3 in combat sports.

Actually it really looks like I'm the only one supplying facts here. Yet again and again you keep repeating lies and telling me I have no idea what I'm talking about.

But it's all moot anyway. Again, for the love of god, my point was that Korea is good at winning Olympic medals. They could win medals in every single event in Rio, but the point is there is no large scale sporting culture here. If I had kids I would not want them to grow up here because the system doesn't encourage a well rounded athletic upbringing. Back on topic, I wouldn't want my kids to grow up here because the system doesn't support a well rounded education, either. They get good results in both, but I don't think the way they get those results is healthy. That was the analogy.

But it doesn't matter. You couldn't win the argument that Korea has a great education system so you latched onto this hoping people just don't know any better. So I brought in stats, facts and proof and you just keep repeating your untruths. Then a guy who actually lived in the countries you tried to knock shows up and you still pretend to know about it than he does.

Let me reiterate: This conversation is not about the amount of medals Korea gets at the Olympics. We all know they do well there. THAT IS THE POINT. Just like how no one is denying Korea does well on standardized tests. It's how they get these things that is the topic.

Now I'll let you continue crying about those rich Ethiopians and Jamaicans stealing all the medals from little poor Korea.

Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 4:18 am Post subject:

byrddogs wrote:

3DR wrote:

It's a little like the hit and run dudes (like yourself) that come in and coat tail on the backs of others, right?

Byrddogs, if anyone is a hit and runner, its you. You never contribute to the discussion, you just pop in, insult a couple posters with one-liners, and then leave. Do you ever bother to look yourself in the mirror?

Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 4:53 am Post subject:

Quote:

Baseball: 2 medals.

Baseball has been an Olympic sport for 5 Olympics. Korea getting two medals is fine. It's a 25 man team sport. It's not like other events where you have multiple medals for different distances or weights.

Quote:

Jamaica 12 medals all in sprints.

Cuba 15 medals, 2/3 in combat sports.

Actually it really looks like I'm the only one supplying facts here. Yet again and again you keep repeating lies and telling me I have no idea what I'm talking about.

First, I said usually. We can look at other countries that specialize like Pakistan, Nigeria, Indonesia, Thailand, Taiwan, Iran (Had a really good year in 2012), Ethiopia, Mexico, Egypt, Algeria, Argentina, Turkey, and others. They may have a good surprise year, but they are usually around the 5 medal mark.

Anyways, is there really any evidence that Korea ONLY try at a couple sports? Seems they are more diverse than a lot of other countries out there with decent sized populations.

Really it seems more like some people just have to find a way to crap on something if Korea does well or even just decent at it. Gotta keep them in their place- below us.

Quote:

but the point is there is no large scale sporting culture here

Given the sheer number of people I know who play either basketball, baseball, soccer, tennis, volleyball, badminton, swim, run, ski, skate, or golf, I would have to say that that is a complete crock of crap. It's more strange if a Korean DOESN'T do at least one of those things. Many do two.

Quote:

You couldn't win the argument that Korea has a great education system

I never claimed it had a great education system and I wasn't arguing that. I was simply pointing out how the naysayers might be overly negative and that they might be overlooking some flaws in their own systems that produce really bad results. That's always my point, but some people read this and say "YOU THINK KOREA IS NUMBER 1 AT EVERYTHING!!!"

Quote:

So I brought in stats, facts and proof and you just keep repeating your untruths.

No, you brought in a section of the data points, and anecdotes. Anyways we're both using the same Olympic data table which clearly shows that Korea is not as specialized as some people make it out to be.

Quote:

Then a guy who actually lived in the countries you tried to knock shows up and you still pretend to know about it than he does.

How did I try to knock them? Can you even read?

In the end his statement supported my assertion that High School sports leagues in the North American style are largely a North American phenomenon. That in most schools while there may be a "team", most HS athletics revolves around student clubs.

The North American system is actually the "strange" system regarding schools and sports. It's an outlier and using it as a base to judge other country's and their sporting culture is ridiculous. What you call healthy sporting life, the rest of the world seems to regard as being overly obsessed with sports teams to the detriment of your education system. They don't regard it as healthy and well-rounded that your HS has a 15,000 seat football field and kids who are struggling at math and reading and kids getting chronic brain injuries from hockey and football. That's not healthy and well-rounded sports or academia.

This even extends to University. What sane country would have its football coach be the highest paid government employee in its states? Most of these guys have salaries in the millions of dollars.

http://dailyinfographic.com/is-your-states-highest-paid-employee-a-football-coach-probably-infographic

Do you think this is a country that is in any way, shape, or form well-balanced and healthy in its educational, political, or athletic lifestyle?

Last edited by Steelrails on Thu Aug 07, 2014 4:55 am; edited 1 time in total

Stain

Joined: 08 Jan 2014

Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 4:53 am Post subject:

I think there needs to be a knock down drag out battle between the apologists and the haters. Greasers vs. Socs style. The winner is right about everything.

byrddogs

Joined: 19 Jun 2009
Location: Shanghai

Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 5:17 am Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

byrddogs wrote:

3DR wrote:

It's a little like the hit and run dudes (like yourself) that come in and coat tail on the backs of others, right?

Here is the thing about that. I knew that either you or one of the other guys like you (let's call them SR Lite) would bring that up when I posted that. I was ok with it and did so anyway. Don't you have some page long diatribe comparing things to the US, making absurd analogies, suggesting you are an expert in every damn thing there is to discuss, while e-bragging about your life to go on somewhere else now. You've likely done enough to kill this thread already.

*edit* I see that you aren't quite finished yet by the post above. It must be awesome that you can just hammer out posts within minutes due to your exceptional ability to type quickly. Now if only your brain could catch up with your fingers....

Stain

Joined: 08 Jan 2014

Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 5:22 am Post subject:

byrddogs wrote:

Steelrails wrote:

byrddogs wrote:

3DR wrote:

It's a little like the hit and run dudes (like yourself) that come in and coat tail on the backs of others, right?

You see? This would be an awesome fight.

Mr. BlackCat

Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE

Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 5:44 am Post subject:

Stain wrote:

I think there needs to be a knock down drag out battle between the apologists and the haters. Greasers vs. Socs style. The winner is right about everything.

See, that's the thing. It's this false equivalency. I don't hate Korea. I've said multiple times on this thread that Korea does great at the Olympics, better than my home country even (at least in summer). But SR frames everything as an attack on Korea and defends it to the limit. Go look at the Sewol thread. I didn't really post there, but SR was defending the captain. Are the people condemning him 'haters' and 'bashers'? It's not bi-polar like that. There are haters, but not every interaction is one or the other.

It's like the people who say FOX news is right-winged and everything else is Left-winged. No, FOX is extremely right, MSNBC is pretty Left, and most everything else is somewhere in the middle. It's like how Bill Maher said, Anderson Cooper isn't like Bill O'Reiley. People tend to see things as opposites, but just because one side is extremist doesn't mean the people who disagree with them are, too. In fact, extremists have more in common than moderates. I'm a moderate. Korea has good things and bad things. But SR and his minions here blow up everything I (and some others) say about Korea to make it seem like we're these huge haters and complainers. Look at the nightlife thread. I said NY was more of a 24 hour city than Seoul. I was called racist, delusional, a hater, a complainer and mentally ill. Just like here. All for saying Korea is good at the Olympics, but not so great on the smaller scale. Even if you disagree with both those positions, neither of them are extreme or 'hating'.

Stain

Joined: 08 Jan 2014

Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:01 am Post subject:

Mr. BlackCat wrote:

Stain wrote:

I think there needs to be a knock down drag out battle between the apologists and the haters. Greasers vs. Socs style. The winner is right about everything.

Well, I agree. Realists are often labeled as pessimists by none other than optimists.

Stain

Joined: 08 Jan 2014

Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:03 am Post subject:

That being said, it would be a hell of a fight.

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