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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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 Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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Who buys a whole box of Swisher Sweets at once? Unless he was gearing up for Blazefest2014, which is possible, then I'd find it more likely he jacked em all.
In the end, is it possible that everyone involved to varying degrees is no saint? I can think Michael Brown didnt need to be shot, but that doesn't mean I agee with rioting and that the dude was an angel. It doesn't mean that there aren't serious questions about crime in Fergudon.
Likewise, I can think that the cop may have reasonably feared for his life while still thinking he may escalated things and that there can be biased police forces out there and that cops are overly aggressive and militarized.
What I can't agree with anyone who thinks this issue is all one way or another. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 4:44 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| I don't like the "every 28 hours" statistic because it draws no distinction between justified and unjustified killings, but even one person needlessly killed by our police is unacceptable. |
How does anyone know whether they're justified or not? What is the police officer going to say? Who is a white jury going to believe? For whom does the reasonable doubt standard apply?
You guys have to understand how routinely police officers will tilt the presentation of the facts in their favor. That's not a slur against police officers, its a recognition that they are human.
Here's an admittedly emotional presentation of the issue: http://www.usprisonculture.com/blog/2014/08/16/last-words-tribute-to-men-killed-by-police/
I only post it as an antidote to some of the other comments up thread (not Fox's). |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 5:20 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
How does anyone know whether they're justified or not? |
Through a thorough, good-faith evaluation of the facts on a case-by-case basis I'd say. Yes, police misconduct can cloud those facts at times, as can politicized media tomfoolery. This makes it hard for common citizens to fairly judge these matters, even as trends. I am willing to agree to more or less any standard which would result in greater police accountability and more transparent, independent investigations of police conduct. I do not think a remedy exists for the media's share of the problem. |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:42 am Post subject: |
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This is funny:
http://www.vice.com/read/new-orleans-middle-schoolers-are-beating-the-shit-out-of-its-artists-and-gays-820
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| New Orleans Middle Schoolers Are Beating the Shit Out of Artists and Gays |
Oh those kids today.
Kuros:
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A well-placed source in the Ferguson police department said so? Oh, no need for an eye-witness to testify under oath at trial, then.
Furthermore, what this source described was an execution.
Quote:
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| Brown started to walk away according to the account, prompting Wilson to draw his gun and order him to freeze. Brown, the source said, raised his hands in the air, and turned around saying, "What, you're going to shoot me?" |
If Brown no longer presented a threat, and had surrendered, then this is a murder. It might be murder second because it was seconds after a fight, but its murder. |
I'm very seriously doubt a cop just shot him for no reason while he had his hands up surrendering. That is paranoia Kuros. Though I'm happy to see you questioning media reports and the government. Little victories.
xxxxx
So we all are basically starting to agree that de-facto segregation is a better alternative, yeah? White cops clearly, in liberal eyes, shouldn't police Dindu Nuffin. I agree. Draw lines and keep it clean. |
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asylum seeker
Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Location: On your computer screen.
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:13 am Post subject: |
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I'm sure every single one of these people shot was a harmless gentle giant/angel like these guys:
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BALTIMORE (WJZ)– A 24-year-old man is listed in critical condition after being robbed and stabbed multiple times by a group of teenagers.
Early Monday morning around 4:20 a.m. officers were called to the 1200-block of Wall Street for a reported stabbing. When officers arrived they located 24-year-old Sal Schittino suffering from multiple stab wounds to his body.
A preliminary investigation revealed that Schittino was attacked by four black males between the ages of 16 and 18, who had been riding on mopeds.
One of the suspects got off his moped and approached the Schittino. After assaulting Schittino, the suspect took his wallet and personal belongings.
Schittino was transported to a local hospital, where he is listed in critical condition.
The victim is a graduate of Loyola Blakefield High School and played basketball at Washington College. |
http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2014/08/19/police-man-robbed-and-stabbed-by-group-of-teenagers-in-baltimore-city/ |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Titus wrote: |
This is funny:
http://www.vice.com/read/new-orleans-middle-schoolers-are-beating-the-shit-out-of-its-artists-and-gays-820
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| New Orleans Middle Schoolers Are Beating the Shit Out of Artists and Gays |
Oh those kids today.
Kuros:
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A well-placed source in the Ferguson police department said so? Oh, no need for an eye-witness to testify under oath at trial, then.
Furthermore, what this source described was an execution.
Quote:
| Quote: |
| Brown started to walk away according to the account, prompting Wilson to draw his gun and order him to freeze. Brown, the source said, raised his hands in the air, and turned around saying, "What, you're going to shoot me?" |
If Brown no longer presented a threat, and had surrendered, then this is a murder. It might be murder second because it was seconds after a fight, but its murder. |
I'm very seriously doubt a cop just shot him for no reason while he had his hands up surrendering. That is paranoia Kuros. |
Its naive to expect a police agency to investigate and police its own, especially when they've attempted to intimidate peaceful protests to investigate a possible crime? You've watched Ferguson police intimidate its populace and you come away with, "Hey, look, here's a videotape of the kid committing petty theft, good riddance." Seriously, don't erroneously slur the critical eye which questions the questionable.
Last edited by Kuros on Thu Aug 21, 2014 4:56 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Titus wrote: |
| So we all are basically starting to agree that de-facto segregation is a better alternative, yeah? White cops clearly, in liberal eyes, shouldn't police Dindu Nuffin. I agree. Draw lines and keep it clean. |
Well, segregation would certainly provide opportunity for would-be Black profesionals. It would be much easier to become a doctor, a dentist, or what have you absent any competition from Whites, East Asians, or even Latinos. But in the long term, I don't think it would work, largely because of the productivity differential. Imagine an Indian reservation, but with greater population density, more crime, and no state-granted gambling monopoly propping it up. Outsiders would generally not want to go in, but some may wish to escape -- which unlike the Indian reservation they couldn't legally do, at least in a domestic capacity, because then it wouldn't be segregation -- so the segregation line would be enforced from the White side. Force would be involved, and people would sometimes get hurt, perhaps even occasionally die. Riots would start, rhetoric about "open-air prisons" would ensue, and it would get uglier and uglier until it all fell apart, at which point we'd be in a worse position than when we started.
I don't think enforced intra-national segregation will ever work again.
-Edit: glancing at this again, I realized I missed the word "de facto" in Titus' post. I'm going to leave this up anyway since I don't think the kind of segregation Titus is talking about here can reliably exist absent clear, enforced legal boundaries, but I acknowledge that he didn't exactly call for that, at least in this sentence. |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Titus"]I'm very seriously doubt a cop just shot him for no reason while he had his hands up surrendering. quote]
LMAO...that is far, far more likely than someone, anyone charging someone with a gun. Yeah, someone is just going to charge a cop with a gun pointed at you?
There was the case of the Haitian guy, no crime, sodomized with police stick and beaten at 71st precinct in NYC back in the '90s I think. There are documented cases of cops shooting people for no legal reason. That premise has been proven already.
Just admit that you don't care if the cop shot him unprovoked. Its at least more honest.
Your whole view is prejudiced, pun intended since you want a balkanizaation of races and groups anyway. |
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guavashake
Joined: 09 Nov 2013
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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The Truth About Michael Brown and the Ferguson Riots
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pr1oE34bIM
Stefan Molyneux
As they say in Mexico...
Life is like a bowl of jalapenos, what you do now could burn your ass later. |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 1:50 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Titus wrote: |
| So we all are basically starting to agree that de-facto segregation is a better alternative, yeah? White cops clearly, in liberal eyes, shouldn't police Dindu Nuffin. I agree. Draw lines and keep it clean. |
Well, segregation would certainly provide opportunity for would-be Black profesionals. It would be much easier to become a doctor, a dentist, or what have you absent any competition from Whites, East Asians, or even Latinos. But in the long term, I don't think it would work, largely because of the productivity differential. Imagine an Indian reservation, but with greater population density, more crime, and no state-granted gambling monopoly propping it up. Outsiders would generally not want to go in, but some may wish to escape -- which unlike the Indian reservation they couldn't legally do, at least in a domestic capacity, because then it wouldn't be segregation -- so the segregation line would be enforced from the White side. Force would be involved, and people would sometimes get hurt, perhaps even occasionally die. Riots would start, rhetoric about "open-air prisons" would ensue, and it would get uglier and uglier until it all fell apart, at which point we'd be in a worse position than when we started.
I don't think enforced intra-national segregation will ever work again.
-Edit: glancing at this again, I realized I missed the word "de facto" in Titus' post. I'm going to leave this up anyway since I don't think the kind of segregation Titus is talking about here can reliably exist absent clear, enforced legal boundaries, but I acknowledge that he didn't exactly call for that, at least in this sentence. |
Hmm..here's a novel idea. Improve the schools, etc. in these areas. Dr. Ben Carson, darling of the right, was a poor black guy the product of a single mother and became a world reknown neurosurgeon.
If for nothing else than selfish reasons, why not improve EVERYONE's chances and just maybe we may get a person who can save lives like Carson or a general/statesman like Powell.
You could cut the unemployment in half with an earnest infrastructure bill and designating certain areas enterprise zones where companies get reduced or no taxes for having businesses, factories, etc, in cerrtain areas be they S. Central LA or rural West Virginia. Plenty of foreign companies may want a bite of that apple, the important thing is to get those areas jobs. Encourage entrpreneurism. Fix the schools and the instutions.
Just a thought. Certain people on this forum would rather write them off even if certain plans would work. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 2:00 am Post subject: |
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| sirius black wrote: |
Hmm..here's a novel idea. Improve the schools, etc. in these areas. |
Go for it, I'm not stopping you. |
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radcon
Joined: 23 May 2011
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| I never understand the argument "fix the schools." What exactly is wrong with the schools and whose fault is it? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| radcon wrote: |
| I never understand the argument "fix the schools." What exactly is wrong with the schools and whose fault is it? |
I agree with you. There's nothing wrong with the schools, comparatively speaking. All schools worldwide suffer from a Industrial-Era German model of active-instructor-and-passive-classroom-learners. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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| While I've generally come to see that the single most prominent factor in the "quality" of a school are the students who attend it, I can think of at least one factor at some American schools which I would consider a detriment whose removal could be deemed an improvement: a prison atmosphere. Bars on the windows, metal detectors at the doors, constant interaction with security guards, police presence as a standard disciplinary measure, and so forth. These are things that have no place in schools, and they probably make things worse rather than better. |
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radcon
Joined: 23 May 2011
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| While I've generally come to see that the single most prominent factor in the "quality" of a school are the students who attend it, I can think of at least one factor at some American schools which I would consider a detriment whose removal could be deemed an improvement: a prison atmosphere. Bars on the windows, metal detectors at the doors, constant interaction with security guards, police presence as a standard disciplinary measure, and so forth. These are things that have no place in schools, and they probably make things worse rather than better. |
That would be nice but what are the alternatives when some of the student bodies are made up of active gang members who are willing and able to shoot up their rival gang members/class mates at school? I guess just remove all the undesirables as quickly as possible. Bottom line is if students aren't raised to value education and parents don't care about education schools will be "bad" no matter who the teachers are or what the facilities are like. |
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