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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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 Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:38 am Post subject: Re: Joining ISIS and the Caliphate |
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| 1) "Co-exist" does not suggest having to be chums, it means tolerance. People who co-exist don't have to like each other. Believe me, I have had to co-exist with co-teachers I did not like many times. And the "co" part does not necessarily equate to being "equals". Anyway, my larger point was that being treated as "second-class" does not equate to being slaughtered, as you seemed to suggest. |
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| Think about it - there have been both Christian and Jewish communities co-existing in Arab countries and other predominantly Muslim countries for over a thousand years with no problem. |
Your use of co-exist certainly did insinuate that they lived together peacefully which as you know is not correct.
Also being second-class does equate to being slaughtered because it is part of the necessary dehumanization that is employed to justify such atrocities. The Jews in Germany were subjected to years of dehumanization as second-class citizens well before the death factories opened in earnest. The same goes for the Armenians.
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| 2)What period are you talking about? Not in modern times, right? I tried to find cases where there was a recent wholesale slaughter of non-muslims strictly because they were non-muslims and I could not find one. How far back are you talking?? |
A massacre doesn't happen for one reason and one reason only, the Bosniaks at Srebrenica were not just mudered because the were Muslim for example. In the same way Muslims were not massacred in Gujurat just because they were Muslims.
Therefore it is not surprising that you have not found one example strictly for the reason that they were non-Muslim.
When I wrote that comment I meant throughtout the entire period since the beginning of Islam. Also it dependes what you mean by modern, the Hebron massacre of Jews in 1929 is relatively modern. Although since 1945 the the enslavement, ethnic cleansing and massacres of hundreds of thousands of non-Muslim minorities throughout the Arab and wider Muslim world are too numerous to count.
You asked for an example though, so look into what the Janjaweed have done against non-Muslim minorities since the Second Sudanese Civil War.
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| 3)I never compared Islam to Christianity and I don't want to start now. I do agree though that both religions and probably others too have some followers who will twist the sacred words of their holy book to justify their actions. |
I agree. |
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Sector7G
Joined: 24 May 2008
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| Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:46 am Post subject: Re: Joining ISIS and the Caliphate |
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| aq8knyus wrote: |
Finally, the fact that it is seen as a justifiable act shows another essential difference with Christianity. Though there are plenty of evil and massacres in the Bible, Jesus himself doesn't go around making tough love wartime decisions.
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One more thing on this point - well, I am not sure why you brought this up, as this was not a JC v P contest, but about what their followers did. |
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Sector7G
Joined: 24 May 2008
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| Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 9:43 am Post subject: Re: Joining ISIS and the Caliphate |
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| aq8knyus wrote: |
| Quote: |
| 1) "Co-exist" does not suggest having to be chums, it means tolerance. People who co-exist don't have to like each other. Believe me, I have had to co-exist with co-teachers I did not like many times. And the "co" part does not necessarily equate to being "equals". Anyway, my larger point was that being treated as "second-class" does not equate to being slaughtered, as you seemed to suggest. |
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| Think about it - there have been both Christian and Jewish communities co-existing in Arab countries and other predominantly Muslim countries for over a thousand years with no problem. |
Your use of co-exist certainly did insinuate that they lived together peacefully which as you know is not correct.
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Well, if you take my "no problem" 100% literally, then you got me. No, I can not say it has always been without some conflict or dustups 100% of the time, and they were probably not inviting each other over for tea. I meant that generally speaking they live side by side without conflict, and certainly with no massacres, which is really what we are debating.
Sorry, but the Nazi example does not apply at all.
| aq8knyus wrote: |
A massacre doesn't happen for one reason and one reason only, the Bosniaks at Srebrenica were not just mudered because the were Muslim for example. In the same way Muslims were not massacred in Gujurat just because they were Muslims.
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But others were contending it was done for one reason and one reason only and I was disputing that. So it seems you are on my side on that point. |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 12:29 pm Post subject: Re: Joining ISIS and the Caliphate |
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| Well, if you take my "no problem" 100% literally, then you got me. No, I can not say it has always been without some conflict or dustups 100% of the time, and they were probably not inviting each other over for tea. I meant that generally speaking they live side by side without conflict, and certainly with no massacres, which is really what we are debating. |
Over the last 1400 odd years non-Muslim minorities living in majority Muslim states/empires have indeed been the victims of long standing oppression and many have been massacred. There are numerous examples in the 20th century alone.
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| Sorry, but the Nazi example does not apply at all. |
Yes it does. |
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Sector7G
Joined: 24 May 2008
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| Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:28 pm Post subject: Re: Joining ISIS and the Caliphate |
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| aq8knyus wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Well, if you take my "no problem" 100% literally, then you got me. No, I can not say it has always been without some conflict or dustups 100% of the time, and they were probably not inviting each other over for tea. I meant that generally speaking they live side by side without conflict, and certainly with no massacres, which is really what we are debating. |
Over the last 1400 odd years non-Muslim minorities living in majority Muslim states/empires have indeed been the victims of long standing oppression and many have been massacred. There are numerous examples in the 20th century alone.
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Please give me some fairly recent examples other than tribal conflicts in the Sudan. I thought you already conceded there were none.
| aq8knyus wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Sorry, but the Nazi example does not apply at all. |
Yes it does. |
Please tell me how Nazi Germany's treatment of the Jews translates in anyway to how Muslims have treated non-Muslims living in predominantly Muslim countries. Specifically, how have they been oppressed or mistreated in any way similar to the way the Jews were mistreated by the Nazis pre-holocaust? |
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Sector7G
Joined: 24 May 2008
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| Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:43 pm Post subject: Re: Joining ISIS and the Caliphate |
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| aq8knyus wrote: |
Over the last 1400 odd years non-Muslim minorities living in majority Muslim states/empires have indeed been the victims of long standing oppression and many have been massacred. There are numerous examples in the 20th century alone.
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And if you want to go back 1400 years there has surely been more massacre of Muslims by westerners than the other way around.....or have you forgotten about the Crusades?
THE CANNIBALISM AND
BLOODBATHS OF THE CRUSADES
http://www.radioislam.org/sindi/croisades.htm |
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Old Painless
Joined: 01 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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| If any of you has the balls to join ISIS, get yourself to the border towns between Marea and Hasakah in Turkey. The rest will come with the help of Allah and the sons of the Caliphate. Inshalla. |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 11:22 pm Post subject: Re: Joining ISIS and the Caliphate |
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| Sector7G wrote: |
| aq8knyus wrote: |
Over the last 1400 odd years non-Muslim minorities living in majority Muslim states/empires have indeed been the victims of long standing oppression and many have been massacred. There are numerous examples in the 20th century alone.
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And if you want to go back 1400 years there has surely been more massacre of Muslims by westerners than the other way around.....or have you forgotten about the Crusades?
THE CANNIBALISM AND
BLOODBATHS OF THE CRUSADES
http://www.radioislam.org/sindi/croisades.htm |
Agreed.
Still doesn't mean that non-Muslim minorities co-existed with no problems.
The Crusades also doesn't justify what happened to the Christians in Arab countries in the last few decades. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 12:04 am Post subject: Re: Joining ISIS and the Caliphate |
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| aq8knyus wrote: |
[
Over the last 1400 odd years non-Muslim minorities living in majority Muslim states/empires have indeed been the victims of long standing oppression and many have been massacred. There are numerous examples in the 20th century alone.
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Over the last 1400 years, pretty much every religious group on Earth has been subject to oppression and massacres around the world. I mean, for goodness sakes, the modern nation-state system we have to today is the direct result of wars of religion involving Protestants and Catholics.
What we're seeing here is the Middle East's Hundred Years War, combined with the Napoleonic-WWI wars of nationalism where artificial borders are being destroyed and religious schisms are being sorted out via the sword. Traditional monarchs are getting the axe from mobs of people upset at their centuries of rule and being replaced by Robespierrian figures.
Anyways, hopefully sanity will take hold and those Reigns of Terror will be put down as people tire of the blood and long for moderate leadership and a desire to join the 21st century nation-state system and economic sphere. |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 3:41 am Post subject: Re: Joining ISIS and the Caliphate |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| aq8knyus wrote: |
[
Over the last 1400 odd years non-Muslim minorities living in majority Muslim states/empires have indeed been the victims of long standing oppression and many have been massacred. There are numerous examples in the 20th century alone.
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Over the last 1400 years, pretty much every religious group on Earth has been subject to oppression and massacres around the world. I mean, for goodness sakes, the modern nation-state system we have to today is the direct result of wars of religion involving Protestants and Catholics.
What we're seeing here is the Middle East's Hundred Years War, combined with the Napoleonic-WWI wars of nationalism where artificial borders are being destroyed and religious schisms are being sorted out via the sword. Traditional monarchs are getting the axe from mobs of people upset at their centuries of rule and being replaced by Robespierrian figures.
Anyways, hopefully sanity will take hold and those Reigns of Terror will be put down as people tire of the blood and long for moderate leadership and a desire to century
nation-state system and economic sphere. |
I agree with pretty much everything you said.
My problem was with Sector 7G's attempt to paint the experience of non-Muslim minorities in Islamic states and empires as peaceful co-existence.
I would also say that whilst I was talking about the entire period from the prophet (pbuh) to the present day, the litany of abuse directed towards non-Muslim minorities in Islamic states over the last 50 years has been substantial.
Although I in no way seek to minimize the violence directed towards Muslims (I mentioned Srebrenica and Gujurat earlier) and I hold no torch for Christianity. |
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Chaparrastique
Joined: 01 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 4:55 am Post subject: Re: Joining ISIS and the Caliphate |
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| Sector7G wrote: |
| That sure doesn't sound like "Go out and kill anyone who isn't Muslim" to me. |
Later suras overrule earlier ones- the principle of abbrogation. The koran is not a moral whole, its a catalogue of random instructions from a 6th century cult.
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When the Quran was finally collated into book form under Caliph Uthman, the suras were ordered from longest to shortest with no connection whatever to the order in which they were revealed or to their thematic content. In order to find out what the Quran says on a given topic, it is necessary to examine the other Islamic sources that give clues as to when in Muhammad’s lifetime the revelations occurred. Upon such examination, one discovers that the Meccan suras, revealed at a time when the Muslims were vulnerable, are generally benign; the later Medinan suras, revealed after Muhammad had made himself the head of an army, are bellicose.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/islam-101
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Mohammed was a military leader who went out and killed. His armies conquered and pillaged their way to power.
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| Think about it - there have been both Christian and Jewish communities co-existing in Arab countries and other predominantly Muslim countries for over a thousand years with no problem. |
Agreed, there were a lucky few communities that were not forced to convert or die. Usually they were spared because they could be milked for services or parasitized in some way. Such as under the Ottomans. But ultimately life for these minorities became a matter of survival at the mercy of muslims who could periodically abuse, tax, rape, convert or rob them with impunity.
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| By the time of his death in 632 AD, Muhammad had extended his control in a series of raids and battles over most of southern Arabia. The conquered populations of these areas either had to submit to Muslim rule and pay a protection tax or convert to Islam |
Islam has spread through out half the world by fear, intimidation and military force. Not by persuasion or argument. Its not like they've gone out and handed out tracts or convince people with long debates.
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as Muhammad had fought and subdued the peoples of the Arabian peninsula, his successors Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, and Ali (known as “the four rightly-guided Caliphs”) and other Caliphs fought and subdued the people of the Middle East, Africa, Asia, and Europe in the name of Allah.
Unleashing upon the world the blitzkrieg of its day, Islam rapidly spread into the territories of Byzantium, Persia, and Western Europe in the decades after Muhammad’s death. The creaking Byzantine and Persian powers, having battled each other into mutual decline, offered little resistance to this unanticipated onslaught. The Arab Muslim armies charged into the Holy Land, conquered what is now Iraq and Iran, then swept west across North Africa, into Spain, and finally into France. The Muslim offensive was finally halted in the West at the Battle of Poitiers/Tours, not far from Paris, in 732 AD. In the east, the jihad penetrated deep into Central Asia |
Isis is not some unusual extreme phenomenon. Its is simply the current cutting edge, continuing what Islam has always done. Take territory, force the occupants to either join their cult or be murdered, then continue living under oppression, backwardness and slavery.
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THE CANNIBALISM AND
BLOODBATHS OF THE CRUSADES |
lol. Hark at it. Sounds like the sort of spiel Palestinians are taught in school "jews eat their own babies!".
The crusades were an effort to protect minority Christian communities from persecution and ethnic cleansing at the hands of mzlms. They've been playing the same game for centuries. |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 7:35 am Post subject: Re: Joining ISIS and the Caliphate |
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| Fox wrote: |
| EastisEast wrote: |
How does one do it?
I can only imagine anyone taking a plane there and asking a jihadi about joining. Wouldn't they behead you on the spot for being a spy or infidel?
Does someone have to vouch for you, or do you swear on the holy book?
Any ideas? |
I'm under the impression that contact starts through social media, and if enough interest is shown eventually ends up receiving some sort of training (presumably with a heavily ideological component). Usually a slow process with trust building on both sides I guess.
Also, I'm sure there are criminal background and health checks. The children of the caliphate can't be exposed to the wrong kind of Jihadi, after all. |
Recruitment of individuals who live in the West happens primarily in mosques. I don't know if sending a facebook friend request is really sufficient. |
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EZE
Joined: 05 May 2012
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 10:58 am Post subject: |
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| The Western world wanted violence, shock, and awe in Iraq. We got what we wanted. Mission Accomplished. |
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Sector7G
Joined: 24 May 2008
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 1:50 pm Post subject: Re: Joining ISIS and the Caliphate |
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| aq8knyus wrote: |
My problem was with Sector 7G's attempt to paint the experience of non-Muslim minorities in Islamic states and empires as peaceful co-existence.
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Well, twice now you have used the word "peaceful", which I never used. Not only did I not use that word, I also clarified for you what I meant when I used the word "coexist", so either you are missing something or you are willfully misconstruing my meaning. Remember, I was responding to someone who said "basically the operating manual (koran) says to just kill anyone who isn't muslim"...which simply is not true....so I stand by my use of the word "coexist".
Last edited by Sector7G on Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Sector7G
Joined: 24 May 2008
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 2:34 pm Post subject: Re: Joining ISIS and the Caliphate |
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| Chaparrastique wrote: |
Islam has spread through out half the world by fear, intimidation and military force. Not by persuasion or argument. Its not like they've gone out and handed out tracts or convince people with long debates.
| Quote: |
as Muhammad had fought and subdued the peoples of the Arabian peninsula, his successors Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, and Ali (known as “the four rightly-guided Caliphs”) and other Caliphs fought and subdued the people of the Middle East, Africa, Asia, and Europe in the name of Allah.
Unleashing upon the world the blitzkrieg of its day, Islam rapidly spread into the territories of Byzantium, Persia, and Western Europe in the decades after Muhammad’s death. The creaking Byzantine and Persian powers, having battled each other into mutual decline, offered little resistance to this unanticipated onslaught. The Arab Muslim armies charged into the Holy Land, conquered what is now Iraq and Iran, then swept west across North Africa, into Spain, and finally into France. The Muslim offensive was finally halted in the West at the Battle of Poitiers/Tours, not far from Paris, in 732 AD. In the east, the jihad penetrated deep into Central Asia |
Isis is not some unusual extreme phenomenon. Its is simply the current cutting edge, continuing what Islam has always done. Take territory, force the occupants to either join their cult or be murdered, then continue living under oppression, backwardness and slavery.
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"There is no denying that Muslims in Middle East and Asia conquered lands of other peoples but they did not impose their religion over them. There is a clear distinction, in history, between, "the expansion of Muslim states" and "the expansion of Islam" as a religion."
http://www.al-islam.org/articles/religious-tolerance-islam-sayyid-muhammad-rizvi
"There is no doubt that there is religious persecution in many countries with Muslim majorities. The conflicts between rival sects is well known, and examples also abound of intolerant, violent acts perpetrated by supposedly Muslim governments. However, it is important to note that this religious persecution does not come from Islam, but from the evil in human beings. Especially contrary to the Qur'an are the conflicts between Jews and Muslims; Islam teaches that Jews worship the same God as Muslims. One of the fundamental requirements of becoming a Muslim is to manifest belief in the scriptures that God has revealed, one of these being the Torah.
It is a human weakness to attack those that are different. Many people, of all religions, often fail to resist this temptation to lash out; Muslims are no exception. However, Muslims can seek guidance in the Qur'an, which explicitly teaches tolerance and non-violence towards those that do not follow Islam."
http://www.islamonline.com/news/articles/104/The-Qur-an-and-Tolerance-of-Other-Religions.html |
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