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Joining ISIS and the Caliphate
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aq8knyus

Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:51 pm Post subject: Re: Joining ISIS and the Caliphate

Sector7G wrote:

aq8knyus wrote:

My problem was with Sector 7G's attempt to paint the experience of non-Muslim minorities in Islamic states and empires as peaceful co-existence.

Well, twice now you have used the word "peaceful", which I never used. Not only did I not use that word, I also clarified for you what I meant when I used the word "coexist", so either you are missing something or you are willfully misconstruing my meaning. Remember, I was responding to someone who said "basically the operating manual (koran) says to just kill anyone who isn't muslim"...which simply is not true....so I stand by my use of the word "coexist".

You said co-exist without a problem or in other words peaceful.

You then clarified that the massacres, enslavement, oppression and ethnic cleansing over the last 1400 odd years were minor dustups...

You are trying to minimize the extreme brutality shown towards non-Muslim minorities living in Islamic societies.

Chaparrastique

Joined: 01 Jan 2014

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 12:35 am Post subject:

Sector7G wrote:

the Qur'an, which explicitly teaches tolerance and non-violence towards those that do not follow Islam."

As I said before- in the same way government laws made today overrule those issued a century ago, later suras overrule earlier ones.

In the beginning mohammed was vulnerable so he had to placate more powerful enemies. This is where you find all the "peace" suras.

Later as he grew in power and influence he basically unleashes his real agenda. Kill and conquer until the whole world is forced to submit. hence:-

Quote:

Strike terror (into the hearts of) the enemies of God and your enemies."
Sura 8:60

Fight (kill) them (non-Muslims), and God will punish, (torment) them by your hands, cover them with shame." Sura 9:14

" I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them. It is not ye who slew them; it was God."
Sura 8:13-17.

And then there are the hadiths:

Quote:

Mohammed was quoted as saying: "I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, none has the right to be worshipped but Allah."
Al Bukhari vol 4:196.

Mohammed also said; "The person who participates in (Holy Battles) in Allah’s cause and nothing compels him do so except belief in Allah and His Apostle, will be recompensed by Allah either with a reward, or booty ( if he survives) or will be admitted to Paradise ( if he is killed). Al Bukhari vol 1:35

So there is plenty of scope for muslims to interpret violence against non-muslims as being Gods work.

And that is what has happened through history.

S7G wrote:

Muslims in Middle East and Asia conquered lands of other peoples but they did not impose their religion over them

Quote:

The lost history of Christians forced to convert to Islam—or die—is reemerging, figuratively and literally. According to the BBC: “Pope Francis has proclaimed the first saints of his pontificate in a ceremony [last Sunday] at the Vatican—a list which includes 800 victims of an atrocity carried out by Ottoman soldiers in 1480.They were beheaded in the southern Italian town of Otranto after refusing to convert to Islam.”

“The ‘Martyrs of Otranto’ were 813 Italians beheaded for defying demands by Turkish invaders to renounce Christianity. The Turks had been sent by Mohammed II, who had already captured the ‘second Rome’ of Constantinople.

Historical texts throughout the centuries are filled with similar anecdotes, including the “60 Martyrs of Gaza,” Christian soldiers who were executed for refusing Islam during the 7th century Islamic invasion of Jerusalem. Seven centuries later, during the Islamic invasion of Georgia, Christians refusing to convert were forced into their church and set on fire. Witnesses for Christ lists 200 anecdotes of Christians killed—including some burned at the stake, thrown on iron spikes, dismembered, stoned, stabbed, shot at, drowned, pummeled to death, impaled and crucified—for refusing to embrace Islam.

If history is shocking, the fact is, today, Christians—men, women, and children—are still being forced to convert to Islam. Pope Francis alluded to their sufferings during the same ceremony: “As we venerate the martyrs of Otranto, let us ask God to sustain those many Christians who, in these times and in many parts of the world, right now, still suffer violence, and give them the courage and fidelity to respond to evil with good.”

Consider some recent anecdotes:

In Pakistan, a “devoted Christian” was butchered by Muslim men “with multiple axe blows [24 per autopsy] for refusing to convert to Islam.” Another two Christian men returning from church were accosted by six Muslims who tried to force them to convert to Islam, but “the two refused to renounce Christianity.” Accordingly, the Muslims severely beat them, yelling they must either convert “or be prepared to die. . . . the two Christians fell unconscious, and the young Muslim men left assuming they had killed them.”

In Bangladesh some 300 Christian children were abducted in 2012 and sold to Islamic schools, where “imams force them to abjure Christianity.” The children are then instructed in Islam and beaten. After full indoctrination they are asked if they are “ready to give their lives for Islam,” presumably by becoming jihadi suicide-bombers. (Even here the historic patterns are undeniable: for centuries, Christian children were forcibly taken, converted to and indoctrinated in Islam, trained to be jihadis extraordinaire, and then unleashed on their former Christian families. Such were the Janissaries and Mamelukes.)
http://www.raymondibrahim.com/islam/islamic-forced-conversions-past-and-present/

Sector7G

Joined: 24 May 2008

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:00 am Post subject: Re: Joining ISIS and the Caliphate

aq8knyus wrote:

Sector7G wrote:

aq8knyus wrote:

My problem was with Sector 7G's attempt to paint the experience of non-Muslim minorities in Islamic states and empires as peaceful co-existence.

You said co-exist without a problem or in other words peaceful.

Man, you sure like to twist my words and conflate separate things I say to serve your purpose. You jumped on my loose use of the term "no problem" like a pit bull and won't let go of it because you know that is all you have.

I will say it again - there are and have been non-Muslim communities and neighborhoods, namely Jewish and Christian, co-existing in Muslim countries for many years. I don't know why you have such a problem with that word. How else would you describe the situation? They are not slaves or hostages. It does not mean they are best of friends or never have problems - but they are "coexisting" just the same.

"Coexist -to exist separately or independently, often while remaining rivals or adversaries."

You say that the word insinuates "being chums", and I say it does no such thing. Show me any dictionary entry that you can find that defines it that way.

aq8knyus wrote:

You then clarified that the massacres, enslavement, oppression and ethnic cleansing over the last 1400 odd years were minor dustups...

a) I did not clarify it that way, and b) you still have yet to give any recent examples of massacres, enslavement, oppression, and ethnic cleansing. On the topic of ethnic cleansing, Muslims were very often the victims of it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_cleansings

aq8knyus wrote:

You are trying to minimize the extreme brutality shown towards non-Muslim minorities living in Islamic societies.

I am not trying to minimize it, I just think you are trying to exaggerate it in general and faith as being the main reason for it in particular. Life is no picnic for anyone living in the Middle East - repeat - anyone - Muslim and non-Muslim alike.

Last edited by Sector7G on Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:48 am; edited 1 time in total

Sector7G

Joined: 24 May 2008

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:20 am Post subject:

And going back earlier, this was my first post in this thread.....

Sector7G wrote:

Where did you get that from? Actually the religion is quite tolerant of other faiths - generally speaking. Of course, with the extremists it's a different story. But even with them, it's not the Koran they are getting it from....

bigverne

Joined: 12 May 2004

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:51 am Post subject:

Quote:

there are and have been non-Muslim communities and neighborhoods, namely Jewish and Christian, co-existing in Muslim countries for many years.

In the same way that blacks 'co-existed' with whites in the Jim Crow South.

Islam is an ideology that very readily lends itself towards justifying violence. Not only is the Koran chock full of verses mandating violence, its adherents believe it to be the actual word of God, recited to Mohammed, who himself was a pre-modern Radavan Karadic-esque war criminal.

Sector7G

Joined: 24 May 2008

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 8:02 am Post subject:

bigverne wrote:

Quote:

there are and have been non-Muslim communities and neighborhoods, namely Jewish and Christian, co-existing in Muslim countries for many years.

In the same way that blacks 'co-existed' with whites in the Jim Crow South.

I would agree that is a good example of coexisting and many would describe the situation the same way even to this day. Certainly not ideal, but a far cry from "massacres"....

aq8knyus

Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:20 am Post subject: Re: Joining ISIS and the Caliphate

Quote:

You are right.

It certainly is all I have because it is the only problem I had with your post.

Your fumbled attempts at a clarification only made it worse and made it seem as though you were trying to minimize the horror that many non-Muslim minorities have suffered in the last 50 years alone.

I suggest my dear that instead of getting yourself into a tizzy it would be better to simply acknowledge that relations between non-Muslims and Muslims in Islamic societies has been complicated and fraught with violence.

Quote:

I will say it again - there are and have been non-Muslim communities and neighborhoods, namely Jewish and Christian, co-existing in Muslim countries for many years. I don't know why you have such a problem with that word. How else would you describe the situation? They are not slaves or hostages. It does not mean they are best of friends or never have problems - but they are "coexisting" just the same.

Please.

You didn't use the word co-exist in a neutral way, you added that their co-existence together was problem free and then later added that there were only minor 'dustups'.

Also they were/are in many places very much second class citizens. They were/are the victims of enslavemnet, ethnic cleansing, massacres and oppression.

Quote:

You say that the word insinuates "being chums", and I say it does no such thing. Show me any dictionary entry that you can find that defines it that way.

You wrote:

Quote:

Think about it - there have been both Christian and Jewish communities co-existing in Arab countries and other predominantly Muslim countries for over a thousand yearswith no problem.

Quote:

Well, if you take my "no problem" 100% literally, then you got me. No, I can not say it has always been without some conflict or dustups 100% of the time, and they were probably not inviting each other over for tea. I meant that generally speaking they live side by side without conflict, and certainly with no massacres

Your meaning is quite clear and is not misunderstood.

According to you there have hardly been any conflicts or problems between non-Muslims and Muslims in Islamic societies. You also make the bold claim that there has not been a single massacre.

This is your argument and it is wrong.

They did not co-exist without a problem or with only a few minor dustups.

In the last 50 years alone millions of non-Muslims have either been enslaved, ethnically cleansed, massacred or generally oppressed. If we go back further it becomes embarassingly easy to finder more horrific examples.

Quote:

You still have yet to give any recent examples of massacres, enslavement, oppression, and ethnic cleansing.[/b] On the topic of ethnic cleansing, Muslims were very often the victims of it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_cleansings

Yes and I mentioned two very recent examples of Muslims being massacred in my previous posts.

This is relevant to our discussion how exactly?

I have not at any time said that atrocities were not perpetrated against Muslims. I am simply arguing that your claim that non-Muslims co-existed with Muslims in Islamic societies with only minor incidents is factually incorrect.

Quote:

Again your point is what exactly?

Lot's of people have indeed been the victims of brutality in the MENA, but that in no way validates your claim that non-Muslims in Islamic societies co-existed with few if any problems.

I am not a Christian and I do not hold Islam to be singularly evil. I am just pointing out that your assertion that non-Muslims co-existing with Muslims in Islamic societies has been relatively problem free is incorrect.

bucheon bum

Joined: 16 Jan 2003

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:26 am Post subject:

It really is easy. Just put yourself where you encounter fundamentalists, act like you're interested, and voila. I was approached about 10 years ago in an internet cafe in Yemen. Was offerred a free trip to Riyadh to "learn about Islam and the Koran" and given contact info of a dude in southern California to verify the dudes talking to me were legit. Surprise surpise I didn't take up the offer. Seriously though, it is pretty easy to get connected to those nuts. The CIA is barred from inflitrating ISIS and the like too. The fundies might be more cautious now, but it isn't like joining the Mafia or some similar criminal organization like that.

aq8knyus

Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:30 am Post subject:

Sector7G wrote:

bigverne wrote:

Quote:

there are and have been non-Muslim communities and neighborhoods, namely Jewish and Christian, co-existing in Muslim countries for many years.

In the same way that blacks 'co-existed' with whites in the Jim Crow South.

I would agree that is a good example of coexisting and many would describe the situation the same way even to this day. Certainly not ideal, but a far cry from "massacres"....

Except there were massacres in the Jim Crow South...

Sector7G

Joined: 24 May 2008

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:59 am Post subject: Re: Joining ISIS and the Caliphate

aq8knyus wrote:

Quote:

If one would go reply by reply from the beginning, he would see twisted by you, and not fumbled by me.

aq8knyus wrote:

I am just pointing out that your assertion that non-Muslims co-existing with Muslims in Islamic societies has been relatively problem free is incorrect.

And I would say you are at the opposite extreme, making it seem like one big slaughter fest.

aq8knyus

Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 11:38 am Post subject: Re: Joining ISIS and the Caliphate

Quote:

If one would go reply by reply from the beginning, he would see twisted by you, and not fumbled by me.

You wrote clear as day that they co-existed without any problems and then clarified that there were only minor dustups.

That is not my attempt to twist your words...they are literally your words.

As long as the reader understands that the attempt to paint the lives of non-Muslims in Islamic societies as without any major problems is an inaccurate depiction, that is all that matters.

Quote:

And I would say you are at the opposite extreme, making it seem like one big slaughter fest.

Well it does pile up over the centuries.

What I haven't done, however, was suggest that it was a one way street or sought to minimize atrocities on either side.

Sector7G

Joined: 24 May 2008

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 2:07 pm Post subject: Re: Joining ISIS and the Caliphate

aq8knyus wrote:

Quote:

If one would go reply by reply from the beginning, he would see twisted by you, and not fumbled by me.

You wrote clear as day that they co-existed without any problems and then clarified that there were only minor dustups.

That is not my attempt to twist your words...they are literally your words.

Literally my words? You mean literally my word, with your convenient addition of the word "minor", and your convenient forgetting to add the word "conflict". What I actually said was, " No, I can not say it has always been without some conflict or dustups 100% of the time, and they were probably not inviting each other over for tea." But you distorted several things I said in our debate.

aq8knyus wrote:

What I haven't done, however, was suggest that it was a one way street or sought to minimize atrocities on either side.

No, I can't accuse you of that, but it does sound like you are trying to maximize the atrocities of the Muslims. In your very first sentence in this thread, your very first, you distorted the Prophets role in that "massacre", something even scholars did not fault him for, and your response when I called you on it was to point out that Jesus did not make war time decisions like that. So??? This was not a comparison of religions or leaders. To repeat, your opening line was a distortion.

aq8knyus wrote:

Jews and other minorities were not 'co-existing' they were second class citizens and the prophet (pbuh) himself presided over a massacte of Jews.

Your first two posts were also focused on your erroneous and ludicrous definition of the word "coexist", stating that "Co-existence suggests they were chummily rubbing shoulders as equals in a fair society". That is not my attempt to twist your words...they are literally your words. This was before you made any mention of my use of the term "no problem". You latched onto that later when you needed to change course and start talking about Nazis, dehumanization, and the different reasons for massacres.(the latter actually making my point).

aq8knyus

Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London

Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 12:37 pm Post subject: Re: Joining ISIS and the Caliphate

Quote:

I know you said that, I quoted you in full.

Your use of the word 'dustup' to describe enslavement and mass killings implies that you think these incidents were minor.

In anycase your argument is that they lived together with relatively few issues is it not????

If that is the case, I disagree.

If that isn't the case, I agree.

Quote:

Following the Battle of the Trench the Muslim army besieged the Jewish tribe and upon surrendering beheaded the men en masse and enslaved the women and children.

That is not a distortion and even the most revisionist scholars only try and quibble over the numbers.

Quote:

You stated and then kept stating that the co-existence was problem free save for some dustups.

That is my only issue with your post.

Either make the case that they existed without major incident or admit that there was/is a far more bloody reality for non-Muslim minorities in Islamic societies.

EastisEast

Joined: 29 May 2014
Location: Canada

Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 6:27 pm Post subject:

Quote:

It really is easy. Just put yourself where you encounter fundamentalists, act like you're interested, and voila.

I was approached about 10 years ago in an internet cafe in Yemen. Was offerred a free trip to Riyadh to "learn about Islam and the Koran" and given contact info of a dude in southern California to verify the dudes talking to me were legit. Surprise surpise I didn't take up the offer.

Seriously though, it is pretty easy to get connected to those nuts. The CIA is barred from inflitrating ISIS and the like too. The fundies might be more cautious now, but it isn't like joining the Mafia or some similar criminal organization like that.

So ...

Its probably easier than that. I agree with social media. If 'one' acted interested and followed the fundamentals in their conversations on social media....one could .... hmmm.....

Sector7G

Joined: 24 May 2008

Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 8:42 pm Post subject: Re: Joining ISIS and the Caliphate

aq8knyus wrote:

Quote:

I know you said that, I quoted you in full.

Yeah, you "quote me in full", but then you add your own words and omit my words in your interpretation to distort my meaning- something you have purposely been doing all along. What does that say about your argument when you have to resort to tricks like that?

aq8knyus wrote:

Your use of the word 'dustup' to describe enslavement and mass killings implies that you think these incidents were minor.

But I never used the word "dustup" in that manner to describe enslavement and mass killings. That is something you said, not me. I challenge you to show me where I described "dustup" that way. That is your twisting of my words and/or putting words in my mouth that I never said.

aq8knyus wrote:

You stated and then kept stating that the co-existence was problem free save for some dustups.

I only used the term "dustup" one time, so not only is that not true, it is also a perfect example of what you have been doing all along - adding and omitting words to serve your purpose. How does "I can not say it has always been without some conflict or dustups 100% of the time" equate to me saying it was "problem free" save for some dustups? You seem like a teenager the way you hold onto things.

aq8knyus wrote:

Quote:

This is most certainly a distortion and it was never a quibble over numbers but a matter of the reason - it was a wartime decision - not a massacre simply because they were non-Muslim as you tried to portray it. Again, few scholars fault him for this.

aq8knyus wrote:

Either make the case that they existed without major incident or admit that there was/is a far more bloody reality for non-Muslim minorities in Islamic societies.

I still don't think it was "far more" bloody than that of the Muslim majority and though you have alluded to a few things, you have never provided links to any articles that are reliable and authoritative. If you think I am going to take your word for it, you are sadly mistaken. You have already shown yourself to be disingenuous at the very least.

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