|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
|
 Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 4:45 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| Sector7G wrote: |
| I did not use the phrase "women lying about rape". |
Yes, I realize that. Yet I wrote what I did, so it's clear what I think your avoidance of that phrase means.
| Sector7G wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| If so, it's pretty easy to understand why so many cultures in history have structured themselves so as to naturally minimize the situations which give rise to rape in the first place. |
I'm not sure what you mean by this. How have cultures structured themselves to minimize the situations which give rise to rape in the first place? |
I don't like the, "I know what you mean, and I know you're right, but I don't like that you're right, so I'm going to pretend I don't know what you mean," game. You're an intelligent person, you know the answer to your own question. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Sector7G
Joined: 24 May 2008
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 4:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Fox wrote: |
| Sector7G wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| If so, it's pretty easy to understand why so many cultures in history have structured themselves so as to naturally minimize the situations which give rise to rape in the first place. |
I'm not sure what you mean by this. How have cultures structured themselves to minimize the situations which give rise to rape in the first place? |
I don't like the, "I know what you mean, and I know you're right, but I don't like that you're right, so I'm going to pretend I don't know what you mean," game. You're an intelligent person, you know the answer to your own question. |
Thanks for the compliment, but I promise I am not pretending. I thought maybe I missed some context from a previous post, but I looked and could not find any mention. Where and how have situations that give rise to rape been minimized? I am not asking in some kind of debate mode - I really don't know what you mean. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 4:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Sector7G wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| Sector7G wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| If so, it's pretty easy to understand why so many cultures in history have structured themselves so as to naturally minimize the situations which give rise to rape in the first place. |
I'm not sure what you mean by this. How have cultures structured themselves to minimize the situations which give rise to rape in the first place? |
I don't like the, "I know what you mean, and I know you're right, but I don't like that you're right, so I'm going to pretend I don't know what you mean," game. You're an intelligent person, you know the answer to your own question. |
Thanks for the compliment, but I promise I am not pretending. I thought maybe I missed some context from a previous post, but I looked and could not find any mention. Where and how have situations that give rise to rape been minimized? I am not asking in some kind of debate mode - I really don't know what you mean. |
I am actually curious as well, what are you talking about? Also, if that is true, then wouldn't rate of rapes be rising, instead of falling?
In America, rape has fallen pretty drastically since 1973 according to Bureau of Justice.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 5:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Sector7G wrote: |
| Thanks for the compliment, but I promise I am not pretending. I thought maybe I missed some context from a previous post, but I looked and could not find any mention. Where and how have situations that give rise to rape been minimized? I am not asking in some kind of debate mode - I really don't know what you mean. |
Well, let's give an easy, directly-relevant example. Are university parties at which unescorted young women get heavily drunk a situation which promotes rape? Yes, obviously; it's no coincidence that your own article mentions rapes happening in just such an environment. Has every culture throughout history been equally supportive of this practice? No, obviously not. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 5:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Leon wrote: |
I am actually curious as well, what are you talking about? Also, if that is true, then wouldn't rate of rapes be rising, instead of falling?
In America, rape has fallen pretty drastically since 1973 according to Bureau of Justice.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics |
I thought we had had a conversation about the questionable and defective character of crime statistics as gathered by the American government. I must have just imagined it.
Since you brought it up, though, I'm going to get you on record here. From your link:
| Quote: |
| According to the National Crime Victimization Survey, the adjusted per-capita victimization rate of rape has declined from about 2.4 per 1000 people (age 12 and above) in 1980 to about 0.4 per 1000 people, a decline of about 85%.[272] But other government surveys, such as the Sexual Victimization of College Women study, critique the NCVS on the basis it includes only those acts perceived as crimes by the victim, and report a higher victimization rate.[273] Despite a decline of 60% since 1993, the US still has a relatively high rate of rape when compared to other developed countries.[274] |
In the dispute described above, is the government right, or are the feminists right, and why? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 5:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
I am actually curious as well, what are you talking about? Also, if that is true, then wouldn't rate of rapes be rising, instead of falling?
In America, rape has fallen pretty drastically since 1973 according to Bureau of Justice.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics |
I thought we had had a conversation about the questionable and defective character of crime statistics as gathered by the American government. I must have just imagined it.
Since you brought it up, though, I'm going to get you on record here. From your link:
| Quote: |
| According to the National Crime Victimization Survey, the adjusted per-capita victimization rate of rape has declined from about 2.4 per 1000 people (age 12 and above) in 1980 to about 0.4 per 1000 people, a decline of about 85%.[272] But other government surveys, such as the Sexual Victimization of College Women study, critique the NCVS on the basis it includes only those acts perceived as crimes by the victim, and report a higher victimization rate.[273] Despite a decline of 60% since 1993, the US still has a relatively high rate of rape when compared to other developed countries.[274] |
In the dispute described above, is the government right, or are the feminists right, and why? |
They are probably both wrong, for obvious reasons, however it is unlikely that a decline that pronounced would be wrong. We might have, I know I have discussed it here. The statistics themselves are probably questionable, but trends that are steady and pronounced over time are usually demonstrating real phenomenon. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 5:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Leon wrote: |
| The statistics themselves are probably questionable, but trends that are steady and pronounced over time are usually demonstrating real phenomenon. |
I agree. And in this case, given your link says: "A 1997 report by the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics, which defines rape as forced penetration by the offender,[240] found that 91% of rape victims are female and 9% are male.[241] However, when prison rapes are included in the statistics it has been reported that, according to the U.S. Department of Justice, "...more men are raped in the U.S. than women... In 2008, it was estimated 216,000 inmates were sexually assaulted while serving time... compared to 90,479 rape cases outside of prison." [242]," I suspect the real phenomenon in question is one called "mass incarceration." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 5:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Fox wrote: |
| Sector7G wrote: |
| Thanks for the compliment, but I promise I am not pretending. I thought maybe I missed some context from a previous post, but I looked and could not find any mention. Where and how have situations that give rise to rape been minimized? I am not asking in some kind of debate mode - I really don't know what you mean. |
Well, let's give an easy, directly-relevant example. Are university parties at which unescorted young women get heavily drunk a situation which promotes rape? Yes, obviously; it's no coincidence that your own article mentions rapes happening in just such an environment. Has every culture throughout history been equally supportive of this practice? No, obviously not. |
This is a particularly weak answer. This is a very recent phenomenon, so of course every culture throughout history has not been supportive, because it hasn't even been possible for almost all of human history.
The absence of this particular practice doesn't prove your main point. How have societies in the past specifically structured themselves to prevent rape? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 5:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| The statistics themselves are probably questionable, but trends that are steady and pronounced over time are usually demonstrating real phenomenon. |
I agree. And in this case, given your link says: "A 1997 report by the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics, which defines rape as forced penetration by the offender,[240] found that 91% of rape victims are female and 9% are male.[241] However, when prison rapes are included in the statistics it has been reported that, according to the U.S. Department of Justice, "...more men are raped in the U.S. than women... In 2008, it was estimated 216,000 inmates were sexually assaulted while serving time... compared to 90,479 rape cases outside of prison." [242]," I suspect the real phenomenon in question is one called "mass incarceration." |
I think we were having this conversation before. I do find it interesting/frustrating that the prison population is never counted in statistics, as if they were no longer citizens, or even people. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 6:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Leon wrote: |
| This is a particularly weak answer. This is a very recent phenomenon, so of course every culture throughout history has not been supportive, because it hasn't even been possible for almost all of human history. |
Young women and men getting drunk together in an uncontrolled atmosphere hasn't been possible for almost all of human history? True, not for any firm logistical reasons (which is what you're implying here), but simply because the rest of society wisely wouldn't tolerate it. The very de facto impossibility which you reference reinforces my point.
| Leon wrote: |
| The absence of this particular practice doesn't prove your main point. |
It's called an example. I even used the word example. What do you want, an essay? The fellow asked for clarification, not a thesis.
| Leon wrote: |
| How have societies in the past specifically structured themselves to prevent rape? |
By rendering taboo conduct which would leave a woman vulnerable. Since we're evidently pursuing this through the medium of wikipedia, here, again, is an example:
| Quote: |
| Thornhill and Palmer (2000) suggest a number of possible strategies for preventing rape. One example is explaining to males that they may have predispositions to misread the female invitation of sex. They believe that viewing rape as being due to a desire for domination, and not related to sexual desire, is generally harmful. One example being the claim that the way women dress will not affect the risk of rape. They argue that the much greater societal freedom of dating without supervision, and removal of many barriers between males and females, have created an environment that has also removed many earlier societal controls against rape. It is suggested that "men and women interact only in public places during the early stages of their relationships".[5] |
Smart, intuitive, and true. Desert primitives were able to figure this out, but somehow we can't? Can't isn't the right word: we aren't allowed. People giving good advice are accused of "victim blaming." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sector7G
Joined: 24 May 2008
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 6:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Fox wrote: |
| Sector7G wrote: |
| Thanks for the compliment, but I promise I am not pretending. I thought maybe I missed some context from a previous post, but I looked and could not find any mention. Where and how have situations that give rise to rape been minimized? I am not asking in some kind of debate mode - I really don't know what you mean. |
Well, let's give an easy, directly-relevant example. Are university parties at which unescorted young women get heavily drunk a situation which promotes rape? Yes, obviously; it's no coincidence that your own article mentions rapes happening in just such an environment. Has every culture throughout history been equally supportive of this practice? No, obviously not. |
Okay, but I guess I am still confused as to what point you were trying to make, or at least how your point that some cultures try to keep their women from being taken advantage of is germane to this thread, which is about date or acquaintance rape on US college campuses. And what does a victim's hesitance to cooperate have to do with it?? You have to admit that reporting a rape would be harder for a victim to do than it would be for someone to report their car was broken into.
Also, you changed from describing situations that "give rise to" rape to situations that "promote" rape, and not sure where you are going with that either. I bet that a large proportion of these cases involve alcohol, whether it is at a party or just a one on one date. Is it wise for a woman to drink so much that she puts herself in a dangerous situation like that? Definitely not! But does she deserve to be taken advantage of?No.
Last edited by Sector7G on Sun Sep 21, 2014 6:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 6:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| This is a particularly weak answer. This is a very recent phenomenon, so of course every culture throughout history has not been supportive, because it hasn't even been possible for almost all of human history. |
Young women and men getting drunk together in an uncontrolled atmosphere hasn't been possible for almost all of human history? True, not for any firm logistical reasons (which is what you're implying here), but simply because the rest of society wisely wouldn't tolerate it. The very de facto impossibility which you reference reinforces my point. |
You said university parties, which is a pretty specific setting. A frat party is probably a place where rape has proven more likely to happen, but young men and women getting drunk together isn't, necessarily. I get what you are saying, but I think adding the word university is a significant qualifier. Modern university culture, or even universities serving masses of people, is a recent phenomenon.
| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| The absence of this particular practice doesn't prove your main point. |
It's called an example. I even used the word example. What do you want, an essay? The fellow asked for clarification, not a thesis. |
A more interesting example.
| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| How have societies in the past specifically structured themselves to prevent rape? |
By rendering taboo conduct which would leave a woman vulnerable. Since we're evidently pursuing this through the medium of wikipedia, here, again, is an example:
| Quote: |
| Thornhill and Palmer (2000) suggest a number of possible strategies for preventing rape. One example is explaining to males that they may have predispositions to misread the female invitation of sex. They believe that viewing rape as being due to a desire for domination, and not related to sexual desire, is generally harmful. One example being the claim that the way women dress will not affect the risk of rape. They argue that the much greater societal freedom of dating without supervision, and removal of many barriers between males and females, have created an environment that has also removed many earlier societal controls against rape. It is suggested that "men and women interact only in public places during the early stages of their relationships".[5] |
Smart, intuitive, and true. Desert primitives were able to figure this out, but somehow we can't? Can't isn't the right word: we aren't allowed. People giving good advice are accused of "victim blaming." |
If you accept the general trends of statistics, which may themselves be suspect, than it really isn't the case that rape is on the rise, but that awareness of rape is on the rise. These are two very distinct things. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 6:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Leon wrote: |
You said university parties, which is a pretty specific setting. A frat party is probably a place where rape has proven more likely to happen, but young men and women getting drunk together isn't, necessarily. I get what you are saying, but I think adding the word university is a significant qualifier. Modern university culture, or even universities serving masses of people, is a recent phenomenon. |
I spoke about university parties in particular both because the thread itself and Sector7G's article are about campus rape, not because the university environment is somehow of unique importance.
| Leon wrote: |
| If you accept the general trends of statistics, which may themselves be suspect, than it really isn't the case that rape is on the rise, but that awareness of rape is on the rise. These are two very distinct things. |
Given the elements of American culture about which I'm speaking have been around longer than you or I have been alive, why are you so fixated on the idea that they imply rape figures must rise over time? I'm competely willing to entertain the notion that the damage is done and now it's just a matter of damage control. Of course, I'm also completely willing to entertain the notion that things can get worse. I don't have an ideological dog in the dog race of rapes-per-year statistics. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 6:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
You said university parties, which is a pretty specific setting. A frat party is probably a place where rape has proven more likely to happen, but young men and women getting drunk together isn't, necessarily. I get what you are saying, but I think adding the word university is a significant qualifier. Modern university culture, or even universities serving masses of people, is a recent phenomenon. |
I spoke about university parties in particular both because the thread itself and Sector7G's article are about campus rape, not because the university environment is somehow of unique importance.
| Leon wrote: |
| If you accept the general trends of statistics, which may themselves be suspect, than it really isn't the case that rape is on the rise, but that awareness of rape is on the rise. These are two very distinct things. |
Given the elements of American culture about which I'm speaking have been around longer than you or I have been alive, why are you so fixated on the idea that they imply rape figures must rise over time? I'm competely willing to entertain the notion that the damage is done and now it's just a matter of damage control. Of course, I'm also completely willing to entertain the notion that things can get worse. I don't have an ideological dog in the dog race of rapes-per-year statistics. |
I truly do not know what elements you are talking about. To be honest, I am still confused about what your point is. Are you talking about young men and women going to parties together? It seems you are dealing in vague cultural critiques and cryptic references to history and other cultures. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 7:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Leon wrote: |
| I truly do not know what elements you are talking about. To be honest, I am still confused about what your point is. Are you talking about young men and women going to parties together? It seems you are dealing in vague cultural critiques and cryptic references to history and other cultures. |
"By rendering taboo conduct which would leave a woman vulnerable," seems like a concise, grammatical sentence to me, and was even accompanied by examples, but evidently to Leon here it might as well be the Dao De Jing. Too cryptic!
I can't help you. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
