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Cave Dweller
Joined: 17 Aug 2014
Location: Seoul
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 Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 5:42 am Post subject: |
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They invented the suicide bomber.
| radcon wrote: |
| jvalmer wrote: |
| radcon wrote: |
| So when are you expecting an "ebb and flow" of Islamic societies that will once again propel them to the forefront of scientific discovery? Do't hold your breath on that one. |
Things can change. In 1910, the US was not considered a world power, and French was still the 'international' language. By 1945, the US became a world power, and English replaced French as the 'world's' language.
All it takes is one forward, charismatic, and popular, Muslim leader to rapidly change the region. |
Who said anything about becoming a world power. How about one invention, discovery, advancement, anything, originating from the Muslim world in the last 500 years. Anyone? Anyone? |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 5:22 am Post subject: |
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| radcon wrote: |
| jvalmer wrote: |
| radcon wrote: |
| Still I ask- name some advancements that originated from mulsim societies in the last 500 years. |
Coffee |
Not so fast.
"Arabian coffee-drinking began almost 12 centuries ago (850 A.D.) when an Abyssinian goat herder named Khalid noticed that while the afternoon sun made him drowsy, his flock frolicked and skipped about after nibbling at some berries. Khalid either ate the berries whole, or ground and boiled them.
When his wife saw how energetic the normally exhausted Khalid was, she urged him to share this miraculous discovery with the local holy man at the monastery. The chief monk did not share Khalid's enthusiasm. Declaring the berries "the work of the Devil," he flung them into a fire to banish their offending presence. Soon the room filled with the delicious aroma of roasting berries, and other monks hurried in to discover the source of this new delight."
"the passage says the goat herder named Khalid (or Kaldi as he is named in another version of the story) was an Abyssinian. Abyssinians were predominantly Orthodox Christians. In addition, there is no such thing as monasteries or monks in Islam. In fact, it is forbidden (Qur'an 57:027). Therefore, if this legend were to be true, Khalid (or Kaldi) would not have been a Muslim, but a Christian."
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/How_Islamic_Inventors_Did_Not_Change_The_World |
They said muslim society, not the inventor had to be a muslim. |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 5:29 am Post subject: |
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| radcon wrote: |
| jvalmer wrote: |
| radcon wrote: |
| So when are you expecting an "ebb and flow" of Islamic societies that will once again propel them to the forefront of scientific discovery? Do't hold your breath on that one. |
Things can change. In 1910, the US was not considered a world power, and French was still the 'international' language. By 1945, the US became a world power, and English replaced French as the 'world's' language.
All it takes is one forward, charismatic, and popular, Muslim leader to rapidly change the region. |
Who said anything about becoming a world power. How about one invention, discovery, advancement, anything, originating from the Muslim world in the last 500 years. Anyone? Anyone? |
Turkey's Ataturk 'advanced' Turkey into a secular society. Anytime the army feels the government is headed down the path of some other muslim government, it rolls in and runs new elections. Hasn't happened in almost 40 years, and it shows with Turkey among they few muslim majority countries with a decent economy. Malaysia being the other one, but in Malaysia I suspect the Chinese minority have a lot to do with it.
Also, those mico-credit guys are muslim. And Abdus Salam won a nobel in the late-70's. |
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Cave Dweller
Joined: 17 Aug 2014
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 6:29 am Post subject: |
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Arafat also wn a nobel prize but we all know how that went.
| jvalmer wrote: |
| radcon wrote: |
| jvalmer wrote: |
| radcon wrote: |
| So when are you expecting an "ebb and flow" of Islamic societies that will once again propel them to the forefront of scientific discovery? Do't hold your breath on that one. |
Things can change. In 1910, the US was not considered a world power, and French was still the 'international' language. By 1945, the US became a world power, and English replaced French as the 'world's' language.
All it takes is one forward, charismatic, and popular, Muslim leader to rapidly change the region. |
Who said anything about becoming a world power. How about one invention, discovery, advancement, anything, originating from the Muslim world in the last 500 years. Anyone? Anyone? |
Turkey's Ataturk 'advanced' Turkey into a secular society. Anytime the army feels the government is headed down the path of some other muslim government, it rolls in and runs new elections. Hasn't happened in almost 40 years, and it shows with Turkey among they few muslim majority countries with a decent economy. Malaysia being the other one, but in Malaysia I suspect the Chinese minority have a lot to do with it.
Also, those mico-credit guys are muslim. And Abdus Salam won a nobel in the late-70's. |
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guavashake
Joined: 09 Nov 2013
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 6:50 am Post subject: |
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As well as did another notable Muslim, Barack Hussein Soetero Obomber...
Obama admits he's a Muslim
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCAffMSWSzY
| Cave Dweller wrote: |
Arafat also wn a nobel prize but we all know how that went.
| jvalmer wrote: |
| radcon wrote: |
| jvalmer wrote: |
| radcon wrote: |
| So when are you expecting an "ebb and flow" of Islamic societies that will once again propel them to the forefront of scientific discovery? Do't hold your breath on that one. |
Things can change. In 1910, the US was not considered a world power, and French was still the 'international' language. By 1945, the US became a world power, and English replaced French as the 'world's' language.
All it takes is one forward, charismatic, and popular, Muslim leader to rapidly change the region. |
Who said anything about becoming a world power. How about one invention, discovery, advancement, anything, originating from the Muslim world in the last 500 years. Anyone? Anyone? |
Turkey's Ataturk 'advanced' Turkey into a secular society. Anytime the army feels the government is headed down the path of some other muslim government, it rolls in and runs new elections. Hasn't happened in almost 40 years, and it shows with Turkey among they few muslim majority countries with a decent economy. Malaysia being the other one, but in Malaysia I suspect the Chinese minority have a lot to do with it.
Also, those mico-credit guys are muslim. And Abdus Salam won a nobel in the late-70's. |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 7:12 am Post subject: |
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| radcon wrote: |
| jvalmer wrote: |
| radcon wrote: |
| So when are you expecting an "ebb and flow" of Islamic societies that will once again propel them to the forefront of scientific discovery? Do't hold your breath on that one. |
Things can change. In 1910, the US was not considered a world power, and French was still the 'international' language. By 1945, the US became a world power, and English replaced French as the 'world's' language.
All it takes is one forward, charismatic, and popular, Muslim leader to rapidly change the region. |
Who said anything about becoming a world power. How about one invention, discovery, advancement, anything, originating from the Muslim world in the last 500 years. Anyone? Anyone? |
For much of the last 500 years vast swathes of the Muslim world were under the thumb of the Ottoman Turks.
It is not their fault that they were oppressed by an empire that began its long term decline almost as soon as it had established itself. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Cave Dweller wrote: |
They invented the suicide bomber.
| radcon wrote: |
| jvalmer wrote: |
| radcon wrote: |
| So when are you expecting an "ebb and flow" of Islamic societies that will once again propel them to the forefront of scientific discovery? Do't hold your breath on that one. |
Things can change. In 1910, the US was not considered a world power, and French was still the 'international' language. By 1945, the US became a world power, and English replaced French as the 'world's' language.
All it takes is one forward, charismatic, and popular, Muslim leader to rapidly change the region. |
Who said anything about becoming a world power. How about one invention, discovery, advancement, anything, originating from the Muslim world in the last 500 years. Anyone? Anyone? |
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I thought that was invented by the Jews circa year 0 with the Judean People's Front Crack Suicide Squads. |
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Cave Dweller
Joined: 17 Aug 2014
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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Oh damn the jihadists can't even claim credit for that either? Damn, what a sad case.
They're a society in decline. Imagine where they'd be if they didn't have oil.
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Cave Dweller wrote: |
They invented the suicide bomber.
| radcon wrote: |
| jvalmer wrote: |
| radcon wrote: |
| So when are you expecting an "ebb and flow" of Islamic societies that will once again propel them to the forefront of scientific discovery? Do't hold your breath on that one. |
Things can change. In 1910, the US was not considered a world power, and French was still the 'international' language. By 1945, the US became a world power, and English replaced French as the 'world's' language.
All it takes is one forward, charismatic, and popular, Muslim leader to rapidly change the region. |
Who said anything about becoming a world power. How about one invention, discovery, advancement, anything, originating from the Muslim world in the last 500 years. Anyone? Anyone? |
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I thought that was invented by the Jews circa year 0 with the Judean People's Front Crack Suicide Squads. |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Cave Dweller wrote: |
| Imagine where they'd be if they didn't have oil. |
They'd either be better off, like say Singapore, S Korea, or Japan, or basket-cases like much of sub-Saharan Africa. |
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Cave Dweller
Joined: 17 Aug 2014
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 1:06 am Post subject: |
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Likely the latter.
| jvalmer wrote: |
| Cave Dweller wrote: |
| Imagine where they'd be if they didn't have oil. |
They'd either be better off, like say Singapore, S Korea, or Japan, or basket-cases like much of sub-Saharan Africa. |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 1:41 am Post subject: |
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| Cave Dweller wrote: |
Likely the latter.
| jvalmer wrote: |
| Cave Dweller wrote: |
| Imagine where they'd be if they didn't have oil. |
They'd either be better off, like say Singapore, S Korea, or Japan, or basket-cases like much of sub-Saharan Africa. |
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If the Europeans didn't colonize the region, it's likely the countries would've been formed along ethnic lines, and perhaps better leadership. |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:32 am Post subject: |
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| jvalmer wrote: |
| Cave Dweller wrote: |
Likely the latter.
| jvalmer wrote: |
| Cave Dweller wrote: |
| Imagine where they'd be if they didn't have oil. |
They'd either be better off, like say Singapore, S Korea, or Japan, or basket-cases like much of sub-Saharan Africa. |
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If the Europeans didn't colonize the region, it's likely the countries would've been formed along ethnic lines, and perhaps better leadership. |
European empires didn't colonize the Middle East, the only bit that was colonized by Europeans were parts of the Levant and they were largely Europeans from Central and Eastern Europe.
Europeans merely administered parts of the region for a few decades.
If it weren't for European colonization the Turks would have no doubt reasserted their control over Kurdish parts of Iraq and Syria. Iran would have turned the southern part of Iraq into either a client state or a province.
The dream of Great Syria would have died pretty quickly and there would no doubt be decades of contiguous low intensity warfare throughout the Levant. |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:21 am Post subject: |
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| aq8knyus wrote: |
European empires didn't colonize the Middle East, the only bit that was colonized by Europeans were parts of the Levant and they were largely Europeans from Central and Eastern Europe.
Europeans merely administered parts of the region for a few decades.
If it weren't for European colonization the Turks would have no doubt reasserted their control over Kurdish parts of Iraq and Syria. Iran would have turned the southern part of Iraq into either a client state or a province.
The dream of Great Syria would have died pretty quickly and there would no doubt be decades of contiguous low intensity warfare throughout the Levant. |
Maybe it would have been better if they were left to sort it out themselves, way back. Might have left it more stable, or at least keep things internal, instead of targeting countries from outside the region. But then again, with the vast amounts of oil there, I guess outside powers would inevitably interfere in the region. |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:32 am Post subject: |
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| jvalmer wrote: |
| aq8knyus wrote: |
European empires didn't colonize the Middle East, the only bit that was colonized by Europeans were parts of the Levant and they were largely Europeans from Central and Eastern Europe.
Europeans merely administered parts of the region for a few decades.
If it weren't for European colonization the Turks would have no doubt reasserted their control over Kurdish parts of Iraq and Syria. Iran would have turned the southern part of Iraq into either a client state or a province.
The dream of Great Syria would have died pretty quickly and there would no doubt be decades of contiguous low intensity warfare throughout the Levant. |
Maybe it would have been better if they were left to sort it out themselves, way back. Might have left it more stable, or at least keep things internal, instead of targeting countries from outside the region. But then again, with the vast amounts of oil there, I guess outside powers would inevitably interfere in the region. |
It wasn't the Europeans that created the mass of different ethnic, religious and linguistic minorities in the Middle East.
Though I take your point that the current borders were drawn along economic and political lines rather than the natural divisions between communities. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:54 am Post subject: |
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| aq8knyus wrote: |
| jvalmer wrote: |
| aq8knyus wrote: |
European empires didn't colonize the Middle East, the only bit that was colonized by Europeans were parts of the Levant and they were largely Europeans from Central and Eastern Europe.
Europeans merely administered parts of the region for a few decades.
If it weren't for European colonization the Turks would have no doubt reasserted their control over Kurdish parts of Iraq and Syria. Iran would have turned the southern part of Iraq into either a client state or a province.
The dream of Great Syria would have died pretty quickly and there would no doubt be decades of contiguous low intensity warfare throughout the Levant. |
Maybe it would have been better if they were left to sort it out themselves, way back. Might have left it more stable, or at least keep things internal, instead of targeting countries from outside the region. But then again, with the vast amounts of oil there, I guess outside powers would inevitably interfere in the region. |
It wasn't the Europeans that created the mass of different ethnic, religious and linguistic minorities in the Middle East.
Though I take your point that the current borders were drawn along economic and political lines rather than the natural divisions between communities. |
Perhaps you are letting the Europeans off too easy. If you watch the Vice video about ISIS, the people reference Sykes-Picot several times, and the border lines in the region seem custom designed for chaos. Also you have the Zionists and their outside supporters who, whatever you feel about Israel, increased the hate and disorder in the region.
As for radicalism, a lot of that stems from the Saud families deal with the clerics, and then combining with the political islam of the Egyptian muslim brotherhood. |
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