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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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 Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:20 am Post subject: Re: Hamas, Gaza, and Islamic anti-semitism. |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Titus wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| aq8knyus wrote: |
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| If you mean in the self-interest of politicians to win votes and donor money, sure, ok. If you mean in the USA's self-interest as a whole, no freaking way. |
However, it is simply false to say that Israel has not been used as a very important proxy by the US for decades.
The point is though that to the people that matter in government and the military, Israel is still seen as very much an essential pillar in maintaining US global power. |
Why? I have never seen a serious answer to this question. |
That is the Chomsky position. Israel is a tool of the USA and those plucky innocent Israeli's get all the blame.
Meanwhile: http://www.natsummit.org/program.htm
Hey someone point me in the direction of USPAC (the United States Public Affairs Committee, you know, the organization that lobbies Israel on behalf of the United States).
Here's a quick background on the Israel lobby and what is does: http://scotthorton.org/interviews/2014/07/23/072314-grant-f-smith/ |
Read this too: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/09/01/friends-israel
Its long. |
The Lobby does not have power because of consensus within the Jewish community but through the financial power of key individuals.
Here's a discussion: http://scotthorton.org/interviews/2014/08/26/082614-m-j-rosenberg/
And here is an example: http://www.unz.com/article/billionaires-make-war-on-iran/
Executive summary: they're as powerful as ever, Obama isn't receptive and they're laying the groundwork for H.Clinton, whom Rosenberg (in the interview above) describes as "the most loyal to AIPAC in American history". Preparations for war against Iran will begin immediately following her election, if it happens. |
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Smithington
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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I think the death rate in Gaza is terrible, and I think Israel has some serious answering to do. But let's remember one thing. Hamas has been firing THOUSANDS of rockets into Israel. No country can tolerate that. Can you think of one that would? Hamas are trying to kill Israelis at the same rate as Israelis are killing Palestinians. They're just failing to do so. There's a picture on Yahoo at the moment of the 'Iron Sheild' missile system shooting down fifteen rockets at the same time. These rockets are aimed at civilian centers. They intend to kill, and they rejoice when they do. If they could detonate an atomic device in Tel Aviv they would. And much of the Palestinian population in Gaza would rejoice. What do you think they are digging those tunnels for? To get access to top quality fruit and vegetables at Costco? Anyone who digs tunnels into another country (be it North Korea or Hamas) is intent on doing great harm to that country. Israel's goal in the invasion was to put those tunnels, and the missile sites, out of commission. (Unfortunately Hamas thought it fine to launch missiles from populated areas putting civilians at risk.)
Again, Israel needs to be censored by the international community for the brutality of its methods. Washington should cut back its funding. But let's not pretend that Israel wasn't provoked (time and time again) into hitting Gaza. It was. It has just hot too hard.
But Hamas started this recent conflict. Thousands of rockets is not something that any country can endure in the long term. No other country would put up with it. |
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EastisEast
Joined: 29 May 2014
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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I never understood the idea of 'just shelling the place'. What does that gain?
Its like Hitler 'just shelling' Leningrad in WWII. Just bombing London. Any tactical advantage? Leave a wreckage of bodies and buildings?
Why not occupation? Control?
Drive into the place and take it over. Round up the perps and dismantle whatever you want. Higher casualties, but it gets the job done without looking like Chinggiz Khan.
I don't believe in bombing and shelling as any type of weapon, unless you take the ground because this will ALL START UP AGAIN when they rebuild what was damaged......
If you control, then you have some political chips to play with, at least. |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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| EastisEast wrote: |
I never understood the idea of 'just shelling the place'. What does that gain?
Its like Hitler 'just shelling' Leningrad in WWII. Just bombing London. Any tactical advantage? Leave a wreckage of bodies and buildings?
Why not occupation? Control?
Drive into the place and take it over. Round up the perps and dismantle whatever you want. Higher casualties, but it gets the job done without looking like Chinggiz Khan.
I don't believe in bombing and shelling as any type of weapon, unless you take the ground because this will ALL START UP AGAIN when they rebuild what was damaged......
If you control, then you have some political chips to play with, at least. |
Nobody wants the Gaza Strip.
There is no benefit in holding it and it cannot survive without Israel. In Israel they know this and so they take a hardline in order for the HAMAS regime to fall.
The biggest mistake Israel ever made was taking both the Gaza Strip and West Bank after 67. They should have left the Jordanians and Egyptians where they were and let Palestinian nationhood die under the weight of collective Arab indifference. |
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Smithington
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| aq8knyus wrote: |
| The biggest mistake Israel ever made was taking both the Gaza Strip and West Bank after 67. They should have left the Jordanians and Egyptians where they were and let Palestinian nationhood die under the weight of collective Arab indifference. |
An excellent observation. Jordan had actually annexed the West Bank after 1948 and made its citizens Jordanian citizens. If left like that the Palestinian movement would have died out. By occupying these areas after 1967 Israel resurrected the movement. Very, very bad move. |
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EZE
Joined: 05 May 2012
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| Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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The Israelis and Hamas were Dumb and Dumber.
Netanyahu did his best impersonation of George W. Bush by responding to the murder of his civilians by putting on a tough guy routine and, in the end, not accomplishing anything more than killing a slew of the other guys at the expense of a number of his own dead soldiers that greatly outnumbered the murdered civilians they were avenging. No favorable political change occurred, just a bunch of dead Palestinians and Israelis. Hamas was even dumber and suffered greater losses accordingly. If they want to fight, they'd probably be better off exporting fighters to Iraq and Syria instead of getting their buildings leveled, their people killed, and accomplishing nothing. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| EZE wrote: |
The Israelis and Hamas were Dumb and Dumber.
Netanyahu did his best impersonation of George W. Bush by responding to the murder of his civilians by putting on a tough guy routine and, in the end, not accomplishing anything more than killing a slew of the other guys at the expense of a number of his own dead soldiers that greatly outnumbered the murdered civilians they were avenging. No favorable political change occurred, just a bunch of dead Palestinians and Israelis. |
What about the tunnels? |
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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| FriendlyDaegu wrote: |
| Smithington wrote: |
| I visited both Israel and the West Bank / Palestine last year. Israel, for all its faults (it has many), is a prosperous liberal democracy in a sea of fascist dictatorships. |
Most of the countries surrounding Israel were prosperous liberal democracies 50 years ago. Things took a dramatic south turn after a few specific events which led to the fascists being able to take over. Like the US/UK coup of Iran for oil revenues. Western greed bears a lot of responsibility for the situation we now have in the Middle East.
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Agreed. |
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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Smithington wrote: |
| aq8knyus wrote: |
| The biggest mistake Israel ever made was taking both the Gaza Strip and West Bank after 67. They should have left the Jordanians and Egyptians where they were and let Palestinian nationhood die under the weight of collective Arab indifference. |
An excellent observation. Jordan had actually annexed the West Bank after 1948 and made its citizens Jordanian citizens. If left like that the Palestinian movement would have died out. By occupying these areas after 1967 Israel resurrected the movement. Very, very bad move. |
I wonder if it wouldn't be better to just give Gaza back to Egypt? |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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| catman wrote: |
| Smithington wrote: |
| aq8knyus wrote: |
| The biggest mistake Israel ever made was taking both the Gaza Strip and West Bank after 67. They should have left the Jordanians and Egyptians where they were and let Palestinian nationhood die under the weight of collective Arab indifference. |
An excellent observation. Jordan had actually annexed the West Bank after 1948 and made its citizens Jordanian citizens. If left like that the Palestinian movement would have died out. By occupying these areas after 1967 Israel resurrected the movement. Very, very bad move. |
I wonder if it wouldn't be better to just give Gaza back to Egypt? |
The Egyptians already have enough problems in Sinai with Islamic fundies and I doubt they would want to add HAMAS to their woes.
As long as HAMAS are in power, Gaza will continue to be a benighted place of misery.
I do not dismiss the right of Palestinians to resist violently as it has over time won them concessions. However, as in Northern Ireland they need to realise that violence can only take you so far when you are overwhelmingly inferior militarily. |
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young_clinton
Joined: 09 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 12:55 am Post subject: |
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| Smithington wrote: |
| I think the death rate in Gaza is terrible, and I think Israel has some serious answering to do. But let's remember one thing. Hamas has been firing THOUSANDS of rockets into Israel. No country can tolerate that. |
T
he Arabs have attacked Israel over and over again since it's founding. My understanding is the Israelis suffered 30% casualties during the "war for independence" and were attacked twice afterwards, the six day war and the Yom Kippur war. The bottom line is when referring to Israel all the Arabs are going to insist that they are Zionists, and will always dislike the fact that they have a small Jewish state in the middle of vast Arab territories. By the way the Arab complaints about the treatment of the Palestinians is nothing more than crocodile tears. The other Arabs don't really care that much about the Palestinians and mistreat them as well. No matter what the Palestinians and the other Arabs will always dislike the fact that a group of people that are un-Islamic have a country in the Middle East. They will always look at non-Muslims especially Jews as being un-equal and undeserving because they are not Muslims. It's time for people in the West to stand behind Israel and wash their hands of the Arabs.
| Smithington wrote: |
| Again, Israel needs to be censored by the international community for the brutality of its methods. Washington should cut back its funding. But let's not pretend that Israel wasn't provoked (time and time again) into hitting Gaza. It was. It has just hot too hard. |
Some criticism but no censorship in their actions against the duplicitous Arabs. The Western countries, which Israel is one of, should not want to unnecessarily kill people, but like you said they have brought this on themselves by repeatedly vowing to kill Israelis. What is happening to the Palestinians is only the tip of the iceberg of what is eventually going to happen to all the Arabs in the region brought about by their constant embracing of ignorance, their duplicitous acts, and their intolerance of any questioning of their religion as the "one true religion". The West has repeatedly taken steps that could have helped the Muslims and look what has happened. The weapons that we have used and provided to attempt to liberate them from any kind of tyranny are now being turned around and being used to implement it and being used against us. Their culture will always be a problem. They will always dislike the liberal aspects of rights for every individual always insisting that some people should not be equal and should be servants and slaves which is OK because all people are the slaves of Allah anyway. No more sympathy or help, let them deal with the problems they continue to create for themselves. |
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EZE
Joined: 05 May 2012
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 3:00 am Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
| EZE wrote: |
The Israelis and Hamas were Dumb and Dumber.
Netanyahu did his best impersonation of George W. Bush by responding to the murder of his civilians by putting on a tough guy routine and, in the end, not accomplishing anything more than killing a slew of the other guys at the expense of a number of his own dead soldiers that greatly outnumbered the murdered civilians they were avenging. No favorable political change occurred, just a bunch of dead Palestinians and Israelis. |
What about the tunnels? |
What about them? |
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