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cmxc
Joined: 19 May 2008
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 Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 11:00 pm Post subject: Korean language should be more egalitarian |
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The Korea Times, while often a bastion of yellow journalism, sometimes delivers with profound insight into the challenges confronting Korea as it struggles to define its place in the modern world.
This piece on how Korean language excessively emphasizes age and respect for those older is a must-read for the avid Korea observer:
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| Professor Anthony asks why younger staff members should be obliged to use a language of respect toward their seniors, many of who get drunk every night, harass female staff members and take bribes. He added, "I am entirely hostile to the culture of age-related or status-related ‘banmal' and honorifics and hope that Korea could rid itself of such nonsense." |
Korean language should be more egalitarian
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/opinon/2014/10/298_166411.html |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 11:08 pm Post subject: Re: Korean language should be more egalitarian |
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| cmxc wrote: |
The Korea Times, while often a bastion of yellow journalism, sometimes delivers with profound insight into the challenges confronting Korea as it struggles to define its place in the modern world.
This piece on how Korean language excessively emphasizes age and respect for those older is a must-read for the avid Korea observer:
| Quote: |
| Professor Anthony asks why younger staff members should be obliged to use a language of respect toward their seniors, many of who get drunk every night, harass female staff members and take bribes. He added, "I am entirely hostile to the culture of age-related or status-related ‘banmal' and honorifics and hope that Korea could rid itself of such nonsense." |
Korean language should be more egalitarian
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/opinon/2014/10/298_166411.html |
It's already happening. Talk to most older Koreans who grew up just 20 years ago. Korean for all practical purposes now uses maybe 3 levels. Informal, polite, and formal. Where's in the early-80's it was maybe 5 used daily something like informal, polite, semi-formal, formal, formal-polite...
And in English tone has a lot to do when indicating how 'polite' you're with someone. Something Koreans find difficult to grasp. |
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PRagic
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 12:49 am Post subject: |
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It's already happening in some circles. Koreans form hobby or interest groups where you're not supposed to worry about formalities and titles. In fact, in many of these groups, people only go by a given nick-name. Nobody speaks grunt blunt, but it's not over the top formal by any comparison.
A few years back, Koreans would just say 'Ya Haja', or basically, 'Everybody, let's speak banmal'. Nobody then had to care about the formal usage and everyone had a great time of it.
In work enviroments, I can't see this happening, though. A looser interpretation of 'formal', as a previous poster suggested, perhaps, but I don't think you'll be seeing the new daelee speaking banmal to the chachang any time soon! |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 1:16 am Post subject: |
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| In short, even though social classes exist in other parts of the world, they do not really affect how people speak to each other. |
Wrong.
But it's just what many Koreans tend to believe. Their forms of address are pretty black and white: jondaemal or panmal, and are easy to differentiate. Elsewhere though, there are many shades of grey and it's generally better not to address your boss, superiors, or elders in certain ways.
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| In many cases, the younger members of a company or organization are often better qualified to make decisions than their superiors. Hence, Professor Anthony asks why younger staff members should be obliged to use a language of respect toward their seniors, many of who get drunk every night, harass female staff members and take bribes. |
Because the younger ones do the same things, or will soon enough.
And no, generally the younger members are NOT better qualified to make decisions than their older superiors, but they should be free to give input.
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He added, "I am entirely hostile to the culture of age-related or status-related ‘banmal' and honorifics and hope that Korea could rid itself of such nonsense." |
He should be careful what he wishes for. What's next, remove bowing? There's a certain politeness based on age/status built into the customs and language and he's hostile to it? Plus, honorifics serve a purpose and are not inherently bad, and are certainly not "nonsense". Either way, let Koreans work out their own language preferences, and stay out of it. |
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jazzmaster
Joined: 30 Sep 2013
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:38 am Post subject: |
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Adjusshi is unable to work a car therefore phones a friend's son to come help. Son comes and attempts to fix car. While doing so, son recommends adjusshi waits in car. Adjusshi becomes upset that the son didn't use polite enough language.
What a douche! |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 6:22 am Post subject: |
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| jazzmaster wrote: |
Adjusshi is unable to work a car therefore phones a friend's son to come help. Son comes and attempts to fix car. While doing so, son recommends adjusshi waits in car. Adjusshi becomes upset that the son didn't use polite enough language.
What a douche! |
"work a car"  I'm not so sure I would be busting on others about their language prowess if I were you (and if you come back at me with some localized example of this being used it doesn't matter because it's still wrong). |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 6:37 am Post subject: |
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| jazzmaster wrote: |
Adjusshi is unable to work a car therefore phones a friend's son to come help. Son comes and attempts to fix car. While doing so, son recommends adjusshi waits in car. Adjusshi becomes upset that the son didn't use polite enough language.
What a douche! |
It's basically telling the guy to shut up and wait in the car. It is very rude not to use the polite form with your father's friend.
Generally, if they aren't related to you, and they aren't your friend, and older than you use the polite form. |
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jazzmaster
Joined: 30 Sep 2013
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 7:06 am Post subject: |
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| caniff wrote: |
| jazzmaster wrote: |
Adjusshi is unable to work a car therefore phones a friend's son to come help. Son comes and attempts to fix car. While doing so, son recommends adjusshi waits in car. Adjusshi becomes upset that the son didn't use polite enough language.
What a douche! |
"work a car" I'm not so sure I would be busting on others about their language prowess if I were you (and if you come back at me with some localized example of this being used it doesn't matter because it's still wrong). |
That's the best you can come up with.
I'm busting on the man for being a douche regarding language use, which is, ironically, exactly what you've just done.
You guys should start a club, you'll need to take public transport though because the other guy can't work a car. |
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jazzmaster
Joined: 30 Sep 2013
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 7:11 am Post subject: |
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| jvalmer wrote: |
| jazzmaster wrote: |
Adjusshi is unable to work a car therefore phones a friend's son to come help. Son comes and attempts to fix car. While doing so, son recommends adjusshi waits in car. Adjusshi becomes upset that the son didn't use polite enough language.
What a douche! |
It's basically telling the guy to shut up and wait in the car. It is very rude not to use the polite form with your father's friend.
Generally, if they aren't related to you, and they aren't your friend, and older than you use the polite form. |
The young guy's not fluent in Korean, was born and raised in the States, and has taken time out of his own day to come and help this adjussi. Yet the adjussi is upset that, when the young man offered the adjussi and his wife the chance to sit in his air conditioned car to escape the heat, he didn't use polite enough language.
If you can't see the adjussi is at fault here, then I feel sorry for you. |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 7:46 am Post subject: |
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| jazzmaster wrote: |
| jvalmer wrote: |
| jazzmaster wrote: |
Adjusshi is unable to work a car therefore phones a friend's son to come help. Son comes and attempts to fix car. While doing so, son recommends adjusshi waits in car. Adjusshi becomes upset that the son didn't use polite enough language.
What a douche! |
It's basically telling the guy to shut up and wait in the car. It is very rude not to use the polite form with your father's friend.
Generally, if they aren't related to you, and they aren't your friend, and older than you use the polite form. |
The young guy's not fluent in Korean, was born and raised in the States, and has taken time out of his own day to come and help this adjussi. Yet the adjussi is upset that, when the young man offered the adjussi and his wife the chance to sit in his air conditioned car to escape the heat, he didn't use polite enough language.
If you can't see the adjussi is at fault here, then I feel sorry for you. |
So the next time a Korean kid swears at you, you'll accept the the excuse that he wasn't fluent? Maybe he was testing out a new word heard. Just saying... |
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Stain
Joined: 08 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 7:59 am Post subject: |
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| The guy was upset because of what he perceived as rudeness. It's part of his culture. It's hard not to feel slighted by somebody who acts rude in your culture because it is deeply ingrained. The young man's intentions were good it seems, unless he just wanted them out of his way. However, the guy concluded his article saying that maybe it is time for Koreans to get rid of honorifics. Seems pretty level headed to me. I do think that he is misguided in thinking that schools should bear the only responsibility for teaching these kids to be polite. Korean teachers try to do that, but in many cases, they face a wall in the shape of a Korean mother. I said 'many' not 'all' cases. Some parents do a good job and you can see the examples. It's the same in the states. |
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nicwr2002
Joined: 17 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 8:16 am Post subject: |
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| The only thing I dislike about it is the fact that you have to speak politely even though the older person is being a total *beep*. My wife scolded me for saying 대박 to an older person. However, that person completely screwed us over on the price of a meal. They acted as if they did nothing wrong, so I voiced my annoyance. |
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Stain
Joined: 08 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 8:32 am Post subject: |
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| nicwr2002 wrote: |
| The only thing I dislike about it is the fact that you have to speak politely even though the older person is being a total *beep*. My wife scolded me for saying 대박 to an older person. However, that person completely screwed us over on the price of a meal. They acted as if they did nothing wrong, so I voiced my annoyance. |
In that case, you are right. Beeps use Confuscianism to their advantage in order to be Beeps. Beep them! |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 9:01 am Post subject: |
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| jvalmer wrote: |
| So the next time a Korean kid swears at you, you'll accept the the excuse that he wasn't fluent? Maybe he was testing out a new word heard. Just saying... |
Am I missing something? The friend's son wasn't fluent in Korean, and the author is clearly fluent in English, so I'm pretty sure they were speaking in English. I don't think the author is translating "you guys" from Korean, I think the young guy literally said, "How about you guys sit in my car while we wait?" If they were speaking Korean your argument might hold some water, but I'm pretty sure they weren't. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| PRagic wrote: |
It's already happening in some circles. Koreans form hobby or interest groups where you're not supposed to worry about formalities and titles. In fact, in many of these groups, people only go by a given nick-name. Nobody speaks grunt blunt, but it's not over the top formal by any comparison.
A few years back, Koreans would just say 'Ya Haja', or basically, 'Everybody, let's speak banmal'. Nobody then had to care about the formal usage and everyone had a great time of it.
In work enviroments, I can't see this happening, though. A looser interpretation of 'formal', as a previous poster suggested, perhaps, but I don't think you'll be seeing the new daelee speaking banmal to the chachang any time soon! |
Daum was asking employees, at least in some departments, to take English nicknames so they could avoid calling each other by their rank in the company. |
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