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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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 Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 6:08 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| What I find frustrating is that there are several cases that are pretty unambiguous, where the police have shot people who are clearly 100% innocent, that do not get the same attention. |
Yes but it is a Get Out The Vote strategy. If it were clear cut whites would not push back against the narrative. Such a situation does not serve regime needs. They need a situation where blacks can be whipped into a frenzy and whites push back, thereby winding up blacks even more. The liberal machine can then go full retard with the evil whites hate blacks, just look at these twitter comments headlines which helps maintain the white civil war. Divide and conquer. It is effective. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 6:42 am Post subject: |
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| Titus wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| What I find frustrating is that there are several cases that are pretty unambiguous, where the police have shot people who are clearly 100% innocent, that do not get the same attention. |
Yes but it is a Get Out The Vote strategy. If it were clear cut whites would not push back against the narrative. Such a situation does not serve regime needs. They need a situation where blacks can be whipped into a frenzy and whites push back, thereby winding up blacks even more. The liberal machine can then go full retard with the evil whites hate blacks, just look at these twitter comments headlines which helps maintain the white civil war. Divide and conquer. It is effective. |
What I'm getting from this is that you think whites are rational actors and blacks are not. |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 6:52 am Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| Titus wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| What I find frustrating is that there are several cases that are pretty unambiguous, where the police have shot people who are clearly 100% innocent, that do not get the same attention. |
Yes but it is a Get Out The Vote strategy. If it were clear cut whites would not push back against the narrative. Such a situation does not serve regime needs. They need a situation where blacks can be whipped into a frenzy and whites push back, thereby winding up blacks even more. The liberal machine can then go full retard with the evil whites hate blacks, just look at these twitter comments headlines which helps maintain the white civil war. Divide and conquer. It is effective. |
What I'm getting from this is that you think whites are rational actors and blacks are not. |
No, I don't believe either group is on the whole generally rational. Whites are more universalistic in their collective outlook and blacks are https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZHwGnGrm_k . I'd prefer whites to be more like blacks in this way. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 6:57 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| What I find frustrating is that there are several cases that are pretty unambiguous, where the police have shot people who are clearly 100% innocent, that do not get the same attention. I understand that in this case, part of it is that people wanted this guy to get locked up, and there was already racial tension, people were upset the body was left out on the street, etc. Recently, a kid and a guy in a walmart were shot for having toy guns, a guy was shot just walking through his hallway at night, etc. no ambiguity, no way to portray these guys as being thugs- or if they were thugs it wouldn't even matter because they literally were doing nothing wrong at the moment. |
It's interesting when you consider it beside the Matthew Shepard case, where he became the martyr for hate crimes legislation despite his death more than likely being about drugs, not sexuality. In this case, I actually think much of the reason that the Brown case has become so pivotal is that the local police handled the situation so poorly. This was a case of small town cops flexing their muscles for fun that got out of control. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 7:01 am Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| What I find frustrating is that there are several cases that are pretty unambiguous, where the police have shot people who are clearly 100% innocent, that do not get the same attention. I understand that in this case, part of it is that people wanted this guy to get locked up, and there was already racial tension, people were upset the body was left out on the street, etc. Recently, a kid and a guy in a walmart were shot for having toy guns, a guy was shot just walking through his hallway at night, etc. no ambiguity, no way to portray these guys as being thugs- or if they were thugs it wouldn't even matter because they literally were doing nothing wrong at the moment. |
It's interesting when you consider it beside the Matthew Shepard case, where he became the martyr for hate crimes legislation despite his death more than likely being about drugs, not sexuality. In this case, I actually think much of the reason that the Brown case has become so pivotal is that the local police handled the situation so poorly. This was a case of small town cops flexing their muscles for fun that got out of control. |
Yeah, even if Wilson's actions were justified, it is clear the dude shouldn't have been a cop in Ferguson, MO and that the cops there really don't know what they're doing. |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 7:02 am Post subject: |
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No, it is a get out the vote strategy.
A similar strategy is now in play for HRClinton. Note that the media obsessively focused on rape and similar issues in a way it wasn't even 2 years ago. This is a narrative-setting strategy for the Clinton campaign. |
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Plain Meaning
Joined: 18 Oct 2014
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 7:09 am Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| In this case, I actually think much of the reason that the Brown case has become so pivotal is that the local police handled the situation so poorly. This was a case of small town cops flexing their muscles for fun that got out of control. |
Yes. The local police decided to crack down on peaceful protesters and journalists. And the local prosecutor sweeps away the threat of indictment as a form of retaliation. The Feds are unlikely to bring a case because (1) much of the dispositive evidence was "lost" and (2) Michael Brown was in an altercation with Darren Wilson. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:35 am Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| What I find frustrating is that there are several cases that are pretty unambiguous, where the police have shot people who are clearly 100% innocent, that do not get the same attention. I understand that in this case, part of it is that people wanted this guy to get locked up, and there was already racial tension, people were upset the body was left out on the street, etc. Recently, a kid and a guy in a walmart were shot for having toy guns, a guy was shot just walking through his hallway at night, etc. no ambiguity, no way to portray these guys as being thugs- or if they were thugs it wouldn't even matter because they literally were doing nothing wrong at the moment. |
It's interesting when you consider it beside the Matthew Shepard case, where he became the martyr for hate crimes legislation despite his death more than likely being about drugs, not sexuality. In this case, I actually think much of the reason that the Brown case has become so pivotal is that the local police handled the situation so poorly. This was a case of small town cops flexing their muscles for fun that got out of control. |
Yeah, even if Wilson's actions were justified, it is clear the dude shouldn't have been a cop in Ferguson, MO and that the cops there really don't know what they're doing. |
If he gets as panicked as he says he was, he shouldn't be a cop anywhere, and nor should the rest of them, seemingly. |
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metalhead
Joined: 18 May 2010
Location: Toilet
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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| If anything, this case has proved that liberals only read and hear what they want to read and hear, and that as usual they are an incredibly angry bunch of people. Bunch of repetitive sheep the lot of them. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
What I find frustrating is that there are several cases that are pretty unambiguous, where the police have shot people who are clearly 100% innocent, that do not get the same attention. I understand that in this case, part of it is that people wanted this guy to get locked up, and there was already racial tension, people were upset the body was left out on the street, etc. Recently, a kid and a guy in a walmart were shot for having toy guns, a guy was shot just walking through his hallway at night, etc. no ambiguity, no way to portray these guys as being thugs- or if they were thugs it wouldn't even matter because they literally were doing nothing wrong at the moment.
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This. That Wal-Mart case managed to get open-carry Tea Party types aligned on the same side as the black community. The guy was engaged in zero criminal conduct and was clearly not given a chance to comply with officers before they shot him. The person who called in also was apparently trying to get the guy "SWATted" for a laugh and clearly lied about the situation. But do we get a big uproar? Nope.
I think Officer Wilson was justified in using self-defense, based on the physical evidence. Michael Brown was a significant threat, and failed to cooperate with law enforcement. It is frustrating that people just can't accept the physical evidence, especially those that seem to always trumpet 'science' as being the answer for everything. That being said, I think Michael Brown's civil rights were violated and I hope that a federal Civil Rights charge comes down. The circumstances that led to the entire situation were a civil rights violation, even though within that, Officer Wilson did exercise justifiable self-defense. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Titus wrote: |
| No, it is a get out the vote strategy. |
Why would get out the vote strategies even matter if voting were as meaningless as I seem to remember you suggesting it was? Why do the elite need a Clinton Presidency when Jeb Bush or whomever would be just as happy to unqestioningly serve their interests? I don't think you're wrong that there's a pattern of media activity with regards to these topics, but I don't see how we can reduce the motive for that pattern to American presidential elections. It would be a relief if that was all that was at work here, in fact, because the deeper implications of a culture which is ever more fixated upon and obsessed with identity politics is ugly. |
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Plain Meaning
Joined: 18 Oct 2014
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| I think Officer Wilson was justified in using self-defense, based on the physical evidence. Michael Brown was a significant threat, and failed to cooperate with law enforcement. It is frustrating that people just can't accept the physical evidence, especially those that seem to always trumpet 'science' as being the answer for everything. |
What do you think the physical evidence proves, exactly? Dorian Johnson admits there was a struggle in the car. That there was an altercation is not disputed.
The police have a right to use deadly force to meet deadly force. That right expires once the deadly force passes.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/events-leading-darren-wilson-shooting-michael-brown-article-1.2024569
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Wilson’s account of a struggle for his gun in his car is corroborated by physical evidence, but what happened next is hotly disputed.
Some witnesses testified that Brown was shot in the back while running away. Others say he was standing still. Some backed Wilson’s account that Brown was charging him. One testified he saw Brown on his knees with his hands up, and was ridiculed by prosecutors.
“Basically just about everything that you said on Aug. 13, and much of what you said today isn’t consistent with the physical evidence that we have in this case, OK,” the prosecutor said.
Kuby said that “wildly improper commentary encapsulates what the prosecutors were doing. Steering the grand jury not to indict.” |
There is no physical evidence that demonstrates how far away Michael Brown was from Darren Wilson when Darren Wilson shot him.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/25/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-mistakes_n_6220814.html
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An unnamed medical legal examiner who responded to the shooting testified before the grand jury that he or she had not taken any distance measurements at the scene, because they appeared “self-explanatory.”
“Somebody shot somebody. There was no question as to any distances or anything of that nature at the time I was there,” the examiner told the jury.
The examiner also noted that he or she hadn’t been able to take pictures at the scene -- as is standard -- because the camera's batteries were dead. The examiner later testified that he or she accompanied investigators from the St. Louis County Police Department as they photographed Brown’s body. |
The police failed to preserve the crime scene. |
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Sector7G
Joined: 24 May 2008
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
I think Officer Wilson was justified in using self-defense, based on the physical evidence. Michael Brown was a significant threat, and failed to cooperate with law enforcement. |
This may or may not have been the case, and I am not saying I know the answer. But it seems like the prosecutors were doing their best early on to make it so he would not even have to meet the "" self defense", or "significant threat" threshold.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/11/lawrence-odonnell-rips-st-louis-prosecutor-for-making-it-impossible-for-darren-wilson-to-fail/
"Early on St. Louis County assistant district attorney Kathy Alizadeh handed them a copy of a 1979 Missouri statute saying police were “justified in the use of such physical force as he or she reasonably believes is immediately necessary to effect the arrest or prevent the escape from custody.” However, the Supreme Court found those kinds of statutes to be unconstitutional six years later."
As the Daily Kos reported, the high court found in Tennessee v. Garner that “where the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a threat of serious physical harm, either to the officer or to others, it is not constitutionally unreasonable to prevent escape by using deadly force.”
But in handing the jurors the original statute, O’Donnell said, Alizadeh conveyed the message that Wilson did not feel his life needed to be in danger for him to be legally justified in shooting and killing 18-year-old Michael Brown on Aug. 9.
“She was taking the hurdle that Darren Wilson had to get over in his testimony, and flattening it,” O’Donnell argued. “She was making it impossible for Darren Wilson to fail in front of this grand jury.”
Consequently, he said, the jurors listened to Wilson’s testimony while still believing the statute was still in effect. Alizadeh did not correct her error until Nov. 21, telling them that “part of the case law” did not comply with the Supreme Court ruling.
Court records also show that, when one juror asked whether the high court’s decision overrode state laws, Alizadeh did not say yes, and instead gave a non-commital answer.
“As far as you need to know, just don’t worry about that,” Alizadeh told the juror. Alizadeh’s colleague, Sheila Whirley, added, “We don’t want to get into a law class.”
The point is that it even if one thinks that the Grand Jury ultimately made the right decision not to indict Wilson, this conduct by the prosecution is problematic, and it's no wonder the decision has been viewed with suspicion. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| What I find frustrating is that there are several cases that are pretty unambiguous, where the police have shot people who are clearly 100% innocent, that do not get the same attention. |
I find this frustrating as well, but let's be honest: there's a market for stirring up racial, sexual, and religious tensions in our society. Some people actually do this for a living, and marginal cases are far more useful for inflaming tensions and polarizing the populace than cases of clear-cut injustice. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| I think Officer Wilson was justified in using self-defense, based on the physical evidence. Michael Brown was a significant threat, and failed to cooperate with law enforcement. It is frustrating that people just can't accept the physical evidence, especially those that seem to always trumpet 'science' as being the answer for everything. That being said, I think Michael Brown's civil rights were violated and I hope that a federal Civil Rights charge comes down. The circumstances that led to the entire situation were a civil rights violation, even though within that, Officer Wilson did exercise justifiable self-defense. |
Good post, and one of the reasons that I number amongst your defenders. I'd say that this strikes at where the other side misses the point: Darren Wilson, and the St. Louis County PD, are pretty clearly lying when they said that Wilson stopped Brown for anything having to do with the robbery. He was a kid, perhaps a stupid kid, walking on the street and had the bad luck of running into a cop on what was probably a bad day. |
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