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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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 Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| As far as role models go, the best are those with whom we have direct relationships. Parents, extended family, teachers, community members, and the like are to whom the young should be directed. Our society's vapid obsession with celebrity -- an obsession so deeply engrained that boxers, comedians, and entertainers are being suggested as role models even by people on this board! -- is both.absurd and at least moderately dysfunctional. |
+1. If your child is looking to athletes and actors as role models, it means that you as a parent are doing something wrong. |
I have always looked to people outside of my immediate family and friends as role models. I guess it depends on what you mean by role model, I.e. I got my values from immediate connections but they have never been aspirational figures to me. I think that is the differernce, at least to me. |
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Sector7G
Joined: 24 May 2008
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| Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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| trueblue wrote: |
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It is after the fact that I still believe OJ was and still is guilty. Prior to that, I did not rush to judgement on his guilt or innocence, or support him simply because he is black.
Again, with Cosby, let the court decide, IF it gets that far. If your opinion does not change, fine. But, I would encourage everyone to simply let things play out, as they should.
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| So you did not rush to judgement, you waited until he was judged not guilty to decide that he was guilty??? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. |
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Yes, I did wait until the trial was over to make a decision. I saw what both sides presented, and I made my own choice.
As I am making my own choice now...I choose to believe that we should wait and see what the justice system has to say, if it gets that far. I will make make up my mind, after both sides have presented their case.
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But when you first brought up OJ, it seemed like you were doing it to point out that his acquittal trumped public opinion, and that it proved everyone had rushed to judgement. But then you say you reached the conclusion he was guilty after his acquittal. Go back and read your posts - you said Cosby was innocent until proven guilty. But with OJ you waited until he was acquitted to say he was guilty.
Anyway, the main reason I don't understand why you brought up OJ is that his circumstances are completely different from Cosby's. OJ was charged with murdering 2 people within a short time of each other on a single night. Bill Cosby has been publicly accused of raping, drugging, coercing or sexually assaulting 19 different women since 1965. You have used the terms "smear campaign" and "media hype", but have not given any examples. |
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trueblue
Joined: 15 Jun 2014
Location: In between the lines
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| Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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are you still ranting?
OK...you win. I lay prostrate to your opinion, and knowledge. |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| As far as role models go, the best are those with whom we have direct relationships. Parents, extended family, teachers, community members, and the like are to whom the young should be directed. Our society's vapid obsession with celebrity -- an obsession so deeply engrained that boxers, comedians, and entertainers are being suggested as role models even by people on this board! -- is both.absurd and at least moderately dysfunctional. |
Moral survival in the face of celebrity and all the temptations it brings is a unique and significant achievement not easily ignored. I of course understand scoffing at the elevation of simple athletic prowess or stage presence, but not every celebrity is made the same.
Why Leon would choose to include Henry Louis Gates and his emotional outburst in the face of rational concern in such a category is beyond me, though. He's someone I would think we could all agree would make a very poor role model, given his squandering of an opportunity to reach beyond a very limited audience. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
Moral survival in the face of celebrity and all the temptations it brings is a unique and significant achievement not easily ignored. |
True, but perhaps no less challenging is accurately judging the real character of a wealthy stranger known to you only through his career, carefully staged public relations efforts, and whatever random nonsense the media perpetuates about them. I suspect we could agree that there is a difference between the presence of virtue and the mere appearance of virtue. But with celebrities, we rarely penetrate past the superficial. Even now with Mister Cosby, for example, everyone is in hysterics about what seems to be the case, and how it contrasts with what previously seemed to be the case. There is an insurmountable epistemological challenge at work here even for world-wise adults, to say nothing of children. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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| This thread seems to be like the New Coke- It will be around forever. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 4:44 am Post subject: |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| As far as role models go, the best are those with whom we have direct relationships. Parents, extended family, teachers, community members, and the like are to whom the young should be directed. Our society's vapid obsession with celebrity -- an obsession so deeply engrained that boxers, comedians, and entertainers are being suggested as role models even by people on this board! -- is both.absurd and at least moderately dysfunctional. |
Moral survival in the face of celebrity and all the temptations it brings is a unique and significant achievement not easily ignored. I of course understand scoffing at the elevation of simple athletic prowess or stage presence, but not every celebrity is made the same.
Why Leon would choose to include Henry Louis Gates and his emotional outburst in the face of rational concern in such a category is beyond me, though. He's someone I would think we could all agree would make a very poor role model, given his squandering of an opportunity to reach beyond a very limited audience. |
He is an incredibly accomplished person. Not my role model, but it would be reasonable for him to be one for others. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 4:51 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| geldedgoat wrote: |
Moral survival in the face of celebrity and all the temptations it brings is a unique and significant achievement not easily ignored. |
True, but perhaps no less challenging is accurately judging the real character of a wealthy stranger known to you only through his career, carefully staged public relations efforts, and whatever random nonsense the media perpetuates about them. I suspect we could agree that there is a difference between the presence of virtue and the mere appearance of virtue. But with celebrities, we rarely penetrate past the superficial. Even now with Mister Cosby, for example, everyone is in hysterics about what seems to be the case, and how it contrasts with what previously seemed to be the case. There is an insurmountable epistemological challenge at work here even for world-wise adults, to say nothing of children. |
Again, I guess it goes back to how you define a role model. To me, my role model's everyday life and personality are fairly unimportant, although something like rape or murder would change my view of someone of course, what I look up to is their works, or skills. When I look up to a writer it isn't because of who they are, but what they write or think, and that is why they are a role model, same for musicians, etc. my decision to be where I am now, was heavily influenced by writers and thinkers I haven't met, and to me they are role models. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 7:48 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Again, I guess it goes back to how you define a role model. To me, my role model's everyday life and personality are fairly unimportant, |
For some reason, I suspect most people figure that personality and everyday life are the very basis for role models.
Perhaps what you are suggesting is more akin to inspirations?
As in, he's an amazing artist, completely inspiring, but a terrible role model. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 8:16 am Post subject: |
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| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Again, I guess it goes back to how you define a role model. To me, my role model's everyday life and personality are fairly unimportant, |
For some reason, I suspect most people figure that personality and everyday life are the very basis for role models.
Perhaps what you are suggesting is more akin to inspirations?
As in, he's an amazing artist, completely inspiring, but a terrible role model. |
Why, everyone is fallible, and using that as a basis for a role model sets you up for disappointment when they inevitably do not live up to expectations. Creating idealized images of people doesn't seem useful, to me at least. Better to focus on concrete things like actions or works, which could be everyday things like working hard I guess. Inspirations is such a widely used word that it has lost a lot of power, so I wouldn't use it to describe what I am talking about. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| When I think of a "role model," I of course think in terms of someone providing a model regarding a role you yourself will be expected to fill one day. This is why one often hears terms like "male role model" for example: a boy will (hopefully) grow up to be a man, and as a man, he might profit from having been exposed to positive examples of masculinity, with the benefit deriving from the breadth and depth of the exposure. To hold up a boxer qua boxer, or a writer qua writer, or the like as a role model implies that one will oneself become a boxer, a writer, or so forth, which is both uncertainly and even unlikely. Perhaps some of these men are of adequate character to serve as more general role models, but the young of our nation don't have enough direct exposure to them to really discern that, nor really to benefit from it. I agree with Cosmic Hum's word usage here, and while I understand that many in the populace would not agree with that usage, I would say that's a manifestation of the very obsession with celebrity with which I am taking issue. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| When I think of a "role model," I of course think in terms of someone providing a model regarding a role you yourself will be expected to fill one day. This is why one often hears terms like "male role model" for example: a boy will (hopefully) grow up to be a man, and as a man, he might profit from having been exposed to positive examples of masculinity, with the benefit deriving from the breadth and depth of the exposure. To hold up a boxer qua boxer, or a writer qua writer, or the like as a role model implies that one will oneself become a boxer, a writer, or so forth, which is both uncertainly and even unlikely. Perhaps some of these men are of adequate character to serve as more general role models, but the young of our nation don't have enough direct exposure to them to really discern that, nor really to benefit from it. I agree with Cosmic Hum's word usage here, and while I understand that many in the populace would not agree with that usage, I would say that's a manifestation of the very obsession with celebrity with which I am taking issue. |
OK, I see what you mean. The people I hold as role models are actually doing things that I am being trained to do, and at least partially because of them, I picked to do that thing. I think people aspiring to greatness is a good thing, but of course many people do pick rather banal "famous" people and call them role models.
There are obviously two types of role models, everyday ones- such as family members, etc. and more aspirational ones, which may include celebrities, which may or may not be a good thing considering which ones, but that is the same for the first category. I don't think they are mutually exclusive. |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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Having a job once that included a lot of 'industry' people, you hear all sorts of rumors. Cosby was no exception. The rumors was that he had affairs. I've never heard it extend to rape. Basically it was he was 'America's dad' and had a long time wife, etc. but was cheating on the side. Rape is another issue and maybe others have heard of rape but I certainly didn't.
That said, I am skeptical of the charges. My guess and its only a guess is that he had plenty of affairs and continual investigation will reveal that as true.
I have to think 'why now?' The timing. Also, they are all white women. These happened in a time when America was pretty segregated (late '60s and '70s). My thinking he would have far more access to black women and so why not hear from them? For example, Robin Givens was one such protege. Far more black actresses than white actresses he mentored. These charges are 30 adn 40 years old. Doesn't sound right.
It could all very well be true but a serial rapists who drugs people over a 40 year plus span? This is some 'Dexter' type of shit and there is no way you can get away with that for that long. None. Continual affairs? Sure. Rape? I just find it hard to believe, espeically when he was huge.
Just my two cents. |
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trueblue
Joined: 15 Jun 2014
Location: In between the lines
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Having a job once that included a lot of 'industry' people, you hear all sorts of rumors. Cosby was no exception. The rumors was that he had affairs. I've never heard it extend to rape. Basically it was he was 'America's dad' and had a long time wife, etc. but was cheating on the side. Rape is another issue and maybe others have heard of rape but I certainly didn't.
That said, I am skeptical of the charges. My guess and its only a guess is that he had plenty of affairs and continual investigation will reveal that as true.
I have to think 'why now?' The timing. Also, they are all white women. These happened in a time when America was pretty segregated (late '60s and '70s). My thinking he would have far more access to black women and so why not hear from them? For example, Robin Givens was one such protege. Far more black actresses than white actresses he mentored. These charges are 30 adn 40 years old. Doesn't sound right.
It could all very well be true but a serial rapists who drugs people over a 40 year plus span? This is some 'Dexter' type of shit and there is no way you can get away with that for that long. None. Continual affairs? Sure. Rape? I just find it hard to believe, espeically when he was huge.
Just my two cents. |
Which is why we need to wait and see what TRUE evidence is put forth, rather than relying of the court of publlic opinion and the experts on Dave's ESL Cafe. |
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Plain Meaning
Joined: 18 Oct 2014
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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| trueblue wrote: |
| Quote: |
Having a job once that included a lot of 'industry' people, you hear all sorts of rumors. Cosby was no exception. The rumors was that he had affairs. I've never heard it extend to rape. Basically it was he was 'America's dad' and had a long time wife, etc. but was cheating on the side. Rape is another issue and maybe others have heard of rape but I certainly didn't.
That said, I am skeptical of the charges. My guess and its only a guess is that he had plenty of affairs and continual investigation will reveal that as true.
I have to think 'why now?' The timing. Also, they are all white women. These happened in a time when America was pretty segregated (late '60s and '70s). My thinking he would have far more access to black women and so why not hear from them? For example, Robin Givens was one such protege. Far more black actresses than white actresses he mentored. These charges are 30 adn 40 years old. Doesn't sound right.
It could all very well be true but a serial rapists who drugs people over a 40 year plus span? This is some 'Dexter' type of shit and there is no way you can get away with that for that long. None. Continual affairs? Sure. Rape? I just find it hard to believe, espeically when he was huge.
Just my two cents. |
Which is why we need to wait and see what TRUE evidence is put forth, rather than relying of the court of publlic opinion and the experts on Dave's ESL Cafe. |
Trueblue,
Guess what:
Woman sues Bill Cosby, claiming underage abuse
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Bill Cosby was sued Tuesday by a Southern California woman who claims the comedian molested her in a bedroom of the Playboy Mansion around 1974 when she was 15 years old.
Judy Huth's sexual battery lawsuit does not specify how much she is seeking from Cosby, who has in recent weeks faced renewed accusations that he drugged and sexually assaulted more than a dozen women for many years. |
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