|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
jleblanc
Joined: 23 Aug 2012
|
 Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 6:14 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| jleblanc wrote: |
| Americans as in every single one? No. I'm speaking strictly from an editing standpoint, not something taught in school. And even editors I talked to said they go with what they feel is correct, meaning it is not a blanket one-way-is-right situation. If it was stated in my employer's style guide to do it one way or the other, I'd follow what was stated because that's what I'm getting paid to do and then add a comment if I felt strongly it should be a different way. |
Not sure I agree with this information. In fact, I think this information may be erroneous.
Perhaps your editing team is/are confusing this issue with collective nouns?
|
No. Trash is a mass noun. We're all aware of that. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
isitts
Joined: 25 Dec 2008
Location: Korea
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Seon-bee wrote: |
Does anyone actually have a reference book to look in?
There are always exceptions to the rule.
"Rule 1. A subject will come before a phrase beginning with of. This is a key rule for understanding subjects. The word of is the culprit in many, perhaps most, subject-verb mistakes."
"Rule 6. With words that indicate portions—a lot, a majority, some, all, etc.—Rule 1 given earlier is reversed, and we are guided by the noun after of. If the noun after of is singular, use a singular verb. If it is plural, use a plural verb."
Six tons is not a portion; it's a quantity.
The rule for quantities?
"Quantities: When they refer to total amounts, quantities and measures are singular. When they refer to individual units that can be counted, quantities and measures are plural."
For this reason, I'm going with ENTERS. |
Well, that clears it up for me. Thanks. Which reference book were you using? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jleblanc wrote: |
| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| jleblanc wrote: |
| Americans as in every single one? No. I'm speaking strictly from an editing standpoint, not something taught in school. And even editors I talked to said they go with what they feel is correct, meaning it is not a blanket one-way-is-right situation. If it was stated in my employer's style guide to do it one way or the other, I'd follow what was stated because that's what I'm getting paid to do and then add a comment if I felt strongly it should be a different way. |
Not sure I agree with this information. In fact, I think this information may be erroneous.
Perhaps your editing team is/are confusing this issue with collective nouns?
|
No. Trash is a mass noun. We're all aware of that. |
Ok...so we agree that trash is a mass noun.
Do we agree that tons is a measurement of weight?
6 tons is a lot of weight.
6 tons are a lot of weight. ?
Expressions of time, money, weight, volume can be plural in form but take singular verbs...yes?
I'm not sure where you get the American vs British part from or where you derive the plural from.
Of course, it can passed off as descriptive choice, but descriptive choice that runs contrary to accepted prescriptive guidelines...is this your take on it?
In today's English, usage reigns supreme, there is little doubt about that.
But as a hobby, I am interested in how the language is being formed.
I am good either way. Just wanted to get some clarification on your meaning and usage of style. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jleblanc
Joined: 23 Aug 2012
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| jleblanc wrote: |
| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| jleblanc wrote: |
| Americans as in every single one? No. I'm speaking strictly from an editing standpoint, not something taught in school. And even editors I talked to said they go with what they feel is correct, meaning it is not a blanket one-way-is-right situation. If it was stated in my employer's style guide to do it one way or the other, I'd follow what was stated because that's what I'm getting paid to do and then add a comment if I felt strongly it should be a different way. |
Not sure I agree with this information. In fact, I think this information may be erroneous.
Perhaps your editing team is/are confusing this issue with collective nouns?
|
No. Trash is a mass noun. We're all aware of that. |
Ok...so we agree that trash is a mass noun.
Do we agree that tons is a measurement of weight?
6 tons is a lot of weight.
6 tons are a lot of weight. ?
Expressions of time, money, weight, volume can be plural in form but take singular verbs...yes?
I'm not sure where you get the American vs British part from or where you derive the plural from.
Of course, it can passed off as descriptive choice, but descriptive choice that runs contrary to accepted prescriptive guidelines...is this your take on it?
In today's English, usage reigns supreme, there is little doubt about that.
But as a hobby, I am interested in how the language is being formed.
I am good either way. Just wanted to get some clarification on your meaning and usage of style. |
See my very first post. It wasn't my take on it so I can't really answer your questions. I was just passing on the information for the original poster after I inquired about it with others (those who have many more years of experience editing than I do). I've since tried to find anything that addresses his/her question specifically in Chicago Manual of Style (what I use daily) but no luck. Not saying it's not in there, just that sometimes it's notoriously hard to find what you're looking for in CMOS.
And regarding your last question about "style," I was using it loosely to encompass what style guide or guides you use. CMOS is the one I use but there are many others that can vary. They all cover grammar, which I think was your concern? I also work freelance and they have their own style guide above and beyond using CMOS. CMOS could say one thing but their style guide may trump that because that's what they want used for their book/document/whatever. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:26 am Post subject: |
|
|
| jleblanc wrote: |
| See my very first post. It wasn't my take on it so I can't really answer your questions. I was just passing on the information for the original poster after I inquired about it with others (those who have many more years of experience editing than I do). |
Fair enough. But if we return to your first post, then we are faced with the realization that the information in that post was...shall we say...less than correct?
There are rather delicate grammatical structures at work in Raewon's OP, and perhaps not so easily passed off as style choice.
This might be a good chance for you to teach your 'peers' a thing or two on this grammar point...or not...live and learn.
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jleblanc
Joined: 23 Aug 2012
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 8:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| jleblanc wrote: |
| See my very first post. It wasn't my take on it so I can't really answer your questions. I was just passing on the information for the original poster after I inquired about it with others (those who have many more years of experience editing than I do). |
Fair enough. But if we return to your first post, then we are faced with the realization that the information in that post was...shall we say...less than correct?
There are rather delicate grammatical structures at work in Raewon's OP, and perhaps not so easily passed off as style choice.
This might be a good chance for you to teach your 'peers' a thing or two on this grammar point...or not...live and learn.
|
Oh? Did you source your information? I guess I missed that. And I said it was treated differently depending on where you're from, which seems to be the case since we're having this discussion. No where did I, or anyone in this thread for that matter, state the answer was the world's choice or the only one to be had. The poster was given a lot of information in this thread and it is up to the poster to decide what to do with it, not you. You've made your point that you don't agree. At this point, it seems that all you're trying to do is assert your dominance. I get this is Dave's, but some of us just aren't here for that. And don't wink at me. It's condescending. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raewon
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 2:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Thanks again for all of the additional replies. It's never my intention to get anyone's feathers ruffled up in here. I had already looked through several of my grammar books before posing this question on this board, but I wasn't able to come up with anything (of course I could have easily missed an example), but in this case, I would think mention of it would be in the agreement or subject/verb agreement section. I still feel that someone with an excellent knowledge in grammar should publish something on points on which native speakers don't see eye to eye. May not make the New York Times Bestseller list, but someone like myself would be forever grateful. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jleblanc
Joined: 23 Aug 2012
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| raewon wrote: |
| Thanks again for all of the additional replies. It's never my intention to get anyone's feathers ruffled up in here. I had already looked through several of my grammar books before posing this question on this board, but I wasn't able to come up with anything (of course I could have easily missed an example), but in this case, I would think mention of it would be in the agreement or subject/verb agreement section. I still feel that someone with an excellent knowledge in grammar should publish something on points on which native speakers don't see eye to eye. May not make the New York Times Bestseller list, but someone like myself would be forever grateful. |
Don't worry about it, raewon.  Grammar nerds sometimes get overly heated when talking about stuff like this (I'm including myself in this, not slinging an insult). And there are many grammar books out there where authors will call out other authors about things they don't agree on.  What needs to be agreed upon is WHO makes the one and only set of rules, and that will never happen.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
isitts
Joined: 25 Dec 2008
Location: Korea
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 4:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| raewon wrote: |
| Thanks again for all of the additional replies. It's never my intention to get anyone's feathers ruffled up in here. I had already looked through several of my grammar books before posing this question on this board, but I wasn't able to come up with anything (of course I could have easily missed an example), but in this case, I would think mention of it would be in the agreement or subject/verb agreement section. I still feel that someone with an excellent knowledge in grammar should publish something on points on which native speakers don't see eye to eye. May not make the New York Times Bestseller list, but someone like myself would be forever grateful. |
Ok, but you saw Seon-bee’s answer near the bottom of page 1, didn’t you? I think it was answered pretty clearly…from a reference book.
| Seon-bee wrote: |
Does anyone actually have a reference book to look in?
…
Rule 1. A subject will come before a phrase beginning with of. This is a key rule for understanding subjects. The word of is the culprit in many, perhaps most, subject-verb mistakes."
"Rule 6. With words that indicate portions—a lot, a majority, some, all, etc.—Rule 1 given earlier is reversed, and we are guided by the noun after of. If the noun after of is singular, use a singular verb. If it is plural, use a plural verb." |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Roman Holiday
Joined: 22 Sep 2014
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 4:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| isitts wrote: |
| raewon wrote: |
| Thanks again for all of the additional replies. It's never my intention to get anyone's feathers ruffled up in here. I had already looked through several of my grammar books before posing this question on this board, but I wasn't able to come up with anything (of course I could have easily missed an example), but in this case, I would think mention of it would be in the agreement or subject/verb agreement section. I still feel that someone with an excellent knowledge in grammar should publish something on points on which native speakers don't see eye to eye. May not make the New York Times Bestseller list, but someone like myself would be forever grateful. |
Ok, but you saw Seon-bee’s answer near the bottom of page 1, didn’t you? I think it was answered pretty clearly…from a reference book.
| Seon-bee wrote: |
Does anyone actually have a reference book to look in?
…
Rule 1. A subject will come before a phrase beginning with of. This is a key rule for understanding subjects. The word of is the culprit in many, perhaps most, subject-verb mistakes."
"Rule 6. With words that indicate portions—a lot, a majority, some, all, etc.—Rule 1 given earlier is reversed, and we are guided by the noun after of. If the noun after of is singular, use a singular verb. If it is plural, use a plural verb." |
|
If these rules are true, then I must be wrong. Yet I struggle to think of 'six million tons' as the subject. To me, 'trash' is the subject while the preceding 'six million tons' just modifies/ quantifies the subject. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
isitts
Joined: 25 Dec 2008
Location: Korea
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 4:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Roman Holiday wrote: |
| I struggle to think of 'six million tons' as the subject. To me, 'trash' is the subject while the preceding 'six million tons' just modifies/ quantifies the subject. |
Actually, thinking more on this, and still working within the confines of those rules, it could be argued that as the 6 million tons (of trash) does not represent all the trash that exists in the world, it could be viewed as a portion of trash, making “trash” the subject.
Last edited by isitts on Thu Dec 04, 2014 4:47 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jleblanc
Joined: 23 Aug 2012
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 4:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Roman Holiday wrote: |
| isitts wrote: |
| raewon wrote: |
| Thanks again for all of the additional replies. It's never my intention to get anyone's feathers ruffled up in here. I had already looked through several of my grammar books before posing this question on this board, but I wasn't able to come up with anything (of course I could have easily missed an example), but in this case, I would think mention of it would be in the agreement or subject/verb agreement section. I still feel that someone with an excellent knowledge in grammar should publish something on points on which native speakers don't see eye to eye. May not make the New York Times Bestseller list, but someone like myself would be forever grateful. |
Ok, but you saw Seon-bee’s answer near the bottom of page 1, didn’t you? I think it was answered pretty clearly…from a reference book.
| Seon-bee wrote: |
Does anyone actually have a reference book to look in?
…
Rule 1. A subject will come before a phrase beginning with of. This is a key rule for understanding subjects. The word of is the culprit in many, perhaps most, subject-verb mistakes."
"Rule 6. With words that indicate portions—a lot, a majority, some, all, etc.—Rule 1 given earlier is reversed, and we are guided by the noun after of. If the noun after of is singular, use a singular verb. If it is plural, use a plural verb." |
|
If these rules are true, then I must be wrong. Yet I struggle to think of 'six million tons' as the subject. To me, 'trash' is the subject while the preceding 'six million tons' just modifies/ quantifies the subject. |
This part was left out of the quoted material:
Six tons is not a portion; it's a quantity.
The rule for quantities?
"Quantities: When they refer to total amounts, quantities and measures are singular. When they refer to individual units that can be counted, quantities and measures are plural."
For this reason, I'm going with ENTERS.
So I think that poster agrees with what you're saying. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
isitts
Joined: 25 Dec 2008
Location: Korea
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 4:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jleblanc wrote: |
| Six tons is not a portion; it's a quantity. |
Well, I just made a case above your post that suggests tons (of trash) could be viewed as a portion. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Roman Holiday
Joined: 22 Sep 2014
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 5:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jleblanc wrote: |
| Roman Holiday wrote: |
| isitts wrote: |
| raewon wrote: |
| Thanks again for all of the additional replies. It's never my intention to get anyone's feathers ruffled up in here. I had already looked through several of my grammar books before posing this question on this board, but I wasn't able to come up with anything (of course I could have easily missed an example), but in this case, I would think mention of it would be in the agreement or subject/verb agreement section. I still feel that someone with an excellent knowledge in grammar should publish something on points on which native speakers don't see eye to eye. May not make the New York Times Bestseller list, but someone like myself would be forever grateful. |
Ok, but you saw Seon-bee’s answer near the bottom of page 1, didn’t you? I think it was answered pretty clearly…from a reference book.
| Seon-bee wrote: |
Does anyone actually have a reference book to look in?
…
Rule 1. A subject will come before a phrase beginning with of. This is a key rule for understanding subjects. The word of is the culprit in many, perhaps most, subject-verb mistakes."
"Rule 6. With words that indicate portions—a lot, a majority, some, all, etc.—Rule 1 given earlier is reversed, and we are guided by the noun after of. If the noun after of is singular, use a singular verb. If it is plural, use a plural verb." |
|
If these rules are true, then I must be wrong. Yet I struggle to think of 'six million tons' as the subject. To me, 'trash' is the subject while the preceding 'six million tons' just modifies/ quantifies the subject. |
This part was left out of the quoted material:
Six tons is not a portion; it's a quantity.
The rule for quantities?
"Quantities: When they refer to total amounts, quantities and measures are singular. When they refer to individual units that can be counted, quantities and measures are plural."
For this reason, I'm going with ENTERS.
So I think that poster agrees with what you're saying. |
'Five cans of spaghetti are in the cupboard'. The use of plural here is correct, and follows the rule you give above about individual units [physical things] being counted.
Perhaps the reason 'Six million tons of trash enter the ocean daily' sounds wrong to me [ie; should be singular with enters] is that it's not the same as the first example- they are not actual physical individual units, but rather the quantifying of something more abstract, namely weight.
With weight, even though you measure something uncountable with another noun, what you still have in mind when referring to the thing is a singular mass.
I hope this clears the matter up once and for all.
Last edited by Roman Holiday on Thu Dec 04, 2014 5:06 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jleblanc
Joined: 23 Aug 2012
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 5:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Roman Holiday wrote: |
| jleblanc wrote: |
| Roman Holiday wrote: |
| isitts wrote: |
| raewon wrote: |
| Thanks again for all of the additional replies. It's never my intention to get anyone's feathers ruffled up in here. I had already looked through several of my grammar books before posing this question on this board, but I wasn't able to come up with anything (of course I could have easily missed an example), but in this case, I would think mention of it would be in the agreement or subject/verb agreement section. I still feel that someone with an excellent knowledge in grammar should publish something on points on which native speakers don't see eye to eye. May not make the New York Times Bestseller list, but someone like myself would be forever grateful. |
Ok, but you saw Seon-bee’s answer near the bottom of page 1, didn’t you? I think it was answered pretty clearly…from a reference book.
| Seon-bee wrote: |
Does anyone actually have a reference book to look in?
…
Rule 1. A subject will come before a phrase beginning with of. This is a key rule for understanding subjects. The word of is the culprit in many, perhaps most, subject-verb mistakes."
"Rule 6. With words that indicate portions—a lot, a majority, some, all, etc.—Rule 1 given earlier is reversed, and we are guided by the noun after of. If the noun after of is singular, use a singular verb. If it is plural, use a plural verb." |
|
If these rules are true, then I must be wrong. Yet I struggle to think of 'six million tons' as the subject. To me, 'trash' is the subject while the preceding 'six million tons' just modifies/ quantifies the subject. |
This part was left out of the quoted material:
Six tons is not a portion; it's a quantity.
The rule for quantities?
"Quantities: When they refer to total amounts, quantities and measures are singular. When they refer to individual units that can be counted, quantities and measures are plural."
For this reason, I'm going with ENTERS.
So I think that poster agrees with what you're saying. |
'Five cans of spaghetti are in the cupboard'. This is correct, and follows the rule you give above about individual units [physical thing] that can be counted.
Perhaps the reason 'Six million tons of trash enter the ocean daily' sounds wrong to me is that it's not the same as the first example- they are not actual physical individual units, but rather the quantifying of something more abstract, namely weight. |
Sorry if I'm misunderstanding, but that poster above is saying what you're saying. She/he said they would go with "enters" and not "enter." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
