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hubbahubba
Joined: 31 May 2008
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 Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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| hilarious.. |
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hubbahubba
Joined: 31 May 2008
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Paddycakes
Joined: 05 May 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:35 am Post subject: |
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What's that famous quote about academia...
The fighting is so vicious because the stakes are so small....
To give all the "professors" some context, a Seoul bus driver makes about 3.6 million a month.
Think about it.... |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:58 am Post subject: |
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What can we learn from that thread? That uni wages- especially when adjusted for inflation- (and in most cases uni conditions, too) are generally speaking significantly worse than they were ten plus years ago?
Ironically, the Alex Buffa poster you are referencing is the same dude as TheMeekatLover (and TheChickenLover and KoreaBoo).
If he's making two point something now, that means his wages haven't gone up in over a decade (meaning adjusted for inflation there has been quite the decline- 2.8 mil in 2004 would be 3.725 in today's money; 2.1 in 2004 would be 2.8 now). |
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Roman Holiday
Joined: 22 Sep 2014
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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I have a friend who a few years ago was earning at a Seoul university around 2.5, and then had to pay for his own accommodation.
He'll soon start at a Daejeon university for 3.1, but then the university will also pay for his accommodation.
Doesn't look too dire to me. |
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GENO123
Joined: 28 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Daejeon university for 3.1, but then the university will also pay for his accommodation. |
For how many hours . and what are the deductions? Do they pay severance? |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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What do you mean by a few years? How long ago? 2.5 in 2007 would be worth 3.1 now. The Daejeon area has to pay more because it is a worse place to live than Seoul. Did your friend acquire expensive and time consuming qualifications along the way (such as a PhD or DELTA) on top of the experience gained? Does that Deajeon area uni have less vacation and/or longer working hours than the Seoul one?
The general trend for unis is this:
"I recently saw my old job advertised at less than I was making doing the same thing in 2001 and there was no longer the free apartment. Simply not worth it anymore."
More unis are dropping accommodation than adding it.
More unis are shortening vacation (with mandatory unpaid kiddie camps) than lengthening it.
More unis are increasing weekly working hours than decreasing them.
More unis are giving more paperwork than giving less.
More unis are making the application process more difficult than making it easier.
If you think 3.1 ($34,503 a year) is big money, check this out:
http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm
Typical wage for a professional degree holder: $89,128
Typical wage for a doctoral degree holder: $84,396
Typical wage for an MA holder: $69,108
Typical wage for a BA holder: $57,616
Associates degree: $40,404
Some college, no degree: $37,804
High school diploma only: $33,852
High school drop out: $24,544 |
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jackson7
Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Location: Kim Jong Il's Future Fireball
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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All these comparisons are apples and oranges. Most choose university gigs for all the free time (contrary to GENO's incessant and ridiculous claims otherwise). 12-15 hours of teaching might require 5-6 hours (average) of grading for a competent, experienced teacher teaching a balanced mix of writing and speaking courses, including fluctuations for non-teaching periods like syllabi intros, testing, etc. 20 hours per week for 32 weeks a year? This isn't even a half-time job, but it still offers some benefits like a proper pension and health care.
Those that wish to go after the big bucks can easily do so, as there are many very well-paying ways to make extra money in Korea, even if one is not here on an F-visa (universities routinely give permission to do consulting/copyediting work). As Hubba showed, this argument has been going on for a very, very long time on Dave's, and doesn't show signs of ending.
I think folks on both sides are right in some ways. Unis are crap for newbs looking to upgrade, but are incredible for those of us that have been here for a good while, have kept our credentials updated, and have strong networks in academia. I put A LOT more money in my investment and savings accounts here and abroad while still taking very nice trips home and around the world, and I wouldn't be able to do so if I wasn't in my current position.
I could share precise figures, as I just finished filing my Korean and U.S. taxes, or just cut through the fog of Dave's hyperbole (inflation and deflation of hours/salaries) and come to your own conclusions. Fortunately, no matter how many times misinformation gets posted here, it doesn't affect the time I'm required to work, my benefits, or my pay.
J7 |
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Roman Holiday
Joined: 22 Sep 2014
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:31 am Post subject: |
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| Sure, generally the working conditions at Korean universities look to be deteriorating. Still, they are not so DIRE as some make them out to be. |
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TheMeerkatLover
Joined: 26 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 5:26 am Post subject: |
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| Roman Holiday wrote: |
| Sure, generally the working conditions at Korean universities look to be deteriorating. Still, they are not so DIRE as some make them out to be. |
I don't find them to be dire at all. I suspect it's a coping mechanism by those who have tried and and failed repeatedly to get into the university system to focus on things they don't like (such as lower than expected salaries or potential kiddie camps). Posting facts about salaries and insisting conditions are worsening have had no impact on me. I'm still on holiday, expect to be on holiday in the future and have never taught a camp during the holidays.
The most important factor for me though is my working environment is more or less stress free and I have the autonomy to pretty much do whatever I feel is needed in my courses. That leaves me coming home in a usually good mood, not exhausted from teaching and allows me to have regular 2-3 hour lunches with other faculty as the regular part of the day when schedules permit.
And yes, being part of the KTPF is far better than the NPS.
Let those who are screaming the sky is falling continue. Makes for good entertainment. |
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GENO123
Joined: 28 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 5:28 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| All these comparisons are apples and oranges. Most choose university gigs for all the free time (contrary to GENO's incessant and ridiculous claims otherwise). 12-15 hours of teaching might require 5-6 hours (average) of grading for a competent, experienced teacher teaching a balanced mix of writing and speaking courses, including fluctuations for non-teaching periods like syllabi intros, testing, etc. 20 hours per week for 32 weeks a year? This isn't even a half-time job, but it still offers some benefits like a proper pension and health care. |
Not so. You have to correct essays, make tests manage the grading curve. Jackson7 is the king of university informercials what else can you say?
https://www.youtube.com/results?q=Kevin+Trudeau
Plus it can take up to two weeks to get your grading done so you will work more than 34 weeks a year , then you have to prepare for a week before the term. Then again maybe Jackson7 doesn't prepare for his classes he keeps his job by selling out other teachers.
And the Pension? One way to look at it is an excuse NOT to give teachers severance pay. Cause if you have been at a University then you only get what you pay in for the first five years. You have to pay for your pension but severance is over and above your salary. It is not a proper pension at all.
| Quote: |
| Those that wish to go after the big bucks can easily do so, as there are many very well-paying ways to make extra money in Korea, even if one is not here on an F-visa (universities routinely give permission to do |
consulting/copyediting work). As Hubba showed, this argument has been going on for a very, very long time on Dave's, and doesn't show signs of ending. [/quote]
Universities routinely fire teachers for doing private teaching actually and it is in every contract that one is not allowed to do it. F Visa or not.
If someone wants to know what the representative conditions are in Korea look at the job board. If someone wants to know representative conditions for Universities look at the contract.
| Quote: |
| I think folks on both sides are right in some ways. Unis are crap for newbs looking to upgrade, but are incredible for those of us that have been here for a good while, have kept our credentials updated, and have strong networks in academia. I put A LOT more money in my investment and savings accounts here and abroad while still taking very nice trips home and around the world, and I wouldn't be able to do so if I wasn't in my current position. |
You aren't much of an investor if you think the won is undervalued.
| Quote: |
| I could share precise figures, as I just finished filing my Korean and U.S. taxes, or just cut through the fog of Dave's hyperbole (inflation and deflation of hours/salaries) and come to your own conclusions. Fortunately, no matter how many times misinformation gets posted here, it doesn't affect the time I'm required to work, my benefits, or my pay. |
12- 16 hours for 35 -44 Million (total everything included for hire often and prune the dead wood is not a good job. Not with all the other stuff you have to do that goes with it. . Not if you have to correct essays, made and grade tests do office hours manage the grading curve . It requires MUCH more time, trouble and effort then Jackson7 claims. Much more. What is known as contact hours means nothing.
This school is not the best but it pays better than about 2/3rds of Korean schools What is so good about it? Remember you don't just do your contact hours you do much more.
| Quote: |
Terms of Contract
- 1-year contract
- Annual salary will be 35 million won for 12 hours
- No on- or off- campus housing or housing allowance is offered
- Paid vacation – 8 weeks in summer and 8 weeks in winter |
The truth is that is it not much more than a hogwon when you consider that a hogwon pays severance , housing and airfare. And a hogwon is not a good job at all.
There are schools that pay more and then there are also schools that pay less.
But it is never about just pay , It is always total work (teaching hours and everthing else) & trouble compared to pay. |
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GENO123
Joined: 28 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 5:41 am Post subject: |
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| TheMeerkatLover wrote: |
| Roman Holiday wrote: |
| Sure, generally the working conditions at Korean universities look to be deteriorating. Still, they are not so DIRE as some make them out to be. |
I don't find them to be dire at all. I suspect it's a coping mechanism by those who have tried and and failed repeatedly to get into the university system to focus on things they don't like (such as lower than expected salaries or potential kiddie camps). Posting facts about salaries and insisting conditions are worsening have had no impact on me. I'm still on holiday, expect to be on holiday in the future and have never taught a camp during the holidays.
The most important factor for me though is my working environment is more or less stress free and I have the autonomy to pretty much do whatever I feel is needed in my courses. That leaves me coming home in a usually good mood, not exhausted from teaching and allows me to have regular 2-3 hour lunches with other faculty as the regular part of the day when schedules permit.
And yes, being part of the KTPF is far better than the NPS.
Let those who are screaming the sky is falling continue. Makes for good entertainment. |
good or bad?
Terms of Contract
- 1-year contract
- Annual salary will be 35 million won (for 12 hours* )
- No on- or off- campus housing or housing allowance is offered
- Paid vacation – 8 weeks in summer and 8 weeks in winter
*Remember you just don't do 12 hours .
Last edited by GENO123 on Wed Jan 28, 2015 5:43 am; edited 1 time in total |
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TheMeerkatLover
Joined: 26 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 5:42 am Post subject: |
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Geno, it doesn't take 2 weeks to do grading. If you keep records of your grades, plug them into your grading spreadsheet that you designed to give you a raw score + PASS/FAIL (based on attendance) + CAS and SAS you can do them all rather quickly.
I do my final grades from my classes during the same day of final exams. So if you're a Monday class, at the end of Monday I'm putting the raw data into the spreadsheet to calculate the grades and keeping track of observational notes written during the semester. I'm given two sets of class lists. One is to mark attendance with hours attended & missed. The 2nd is the final score and letter grade. That is all. I have my secretary put the grades into the system.
I make 3 copies of my original forms with all the scribbling on them and bring one with me on holiday, one on my table in my office and one with my secretary. These sheets have all the attendance + grades obtained during the semester. If a student complains about a grade and why, we're both able to see what happened. It also allows my secretary to correct any input errors (one student was failed last year who was given an A and this was easily identified and fixed).
My the last day of exams, my total grading to be submitted to the department is finished. It may mean I'm in my office for an extra 2 hours that day doing spreadsheet work, but on the Friday of finals my grading is complete. I either hand it in that day or the following Monday and leave it at that. At that point I usually wish my other faculty a happy holidays (or good summer) and see them nearly 3 months later.
Have you actually ever worked for a university? Your comments suggest to me that you're speaking out against something you've actually never worked in. |
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TheMeerkatLover
Joined: 26 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 5:44 am Post subject: |
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| GENO123 wrote: |
| TheMeerkatLover wrote: |
| Roman Holiday wrote: |
| Sure, generally the working conditions at Korean universities look to be deteriorating. Still, they are not so DIRE as some make them out to be. |
I don't find them to be dire at all. I suspect it's a coping mechanism by those who have tried and and failed repeatedly to get into the university system to focus on things they don't like (such as lower than expected salaries or potential kiddie camps). Posting facts about salaries and insisting conditions are worsening have had no impact on me. I'm still on holiday, expect to be on holiday in the future and have never taught a camp during the holidays.
The most important factor for me though is my working environment is more or less stress free and I have the autonomy to pretty much do whatever I feel is needed in my courses. That leaves me coming home in a usually good mood, not exhausted from teaching and allows me to have regular 2-3 hour lunches with other faculty as the regular part of the day when schedules permit.
And yes, being part of the KTPF is far better than the NPS.
Let those who are screaming the sky is falling continue. Makes for good entertainment. |
good or bad?
Terms of Contract
- 1-year contract
- Annual salary will be 35 million won
- No on- or off- campus housing or housing allowance is offered
- Paid vacation – 8 weeks in summer and 8 weeks in winter |
To me, the hours lecturing are missing. I own my own home so that isn't an issue to me. I also find 8 weeks holidays really means 10 and 10 weeks holidays. I don't see anything particularly wrong with it under my current conditions. Of course if I were forced to pay for my own housing, that would suck. |
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GENO123
Joined: 28 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 5:56 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Geno, it doesn't take 2 weeks to do grading. If you keep records of your grades, plug them into your grading spreadsheet that you designed to give you a raw score + PASS/FAIL (based on attendance) + CAS and SAS you can do them all rather quickly. |
I use a spreadsheet but there is the grading curve and all the other stuff. It still takes a lot of time to get stuff done.
| Quote: |
I do my final grades from my classes during the same day of final exams. So if you're a Monday class, at the end of Monday I'm putting the raw data into the spreadsheet to calculate the grades and keeping track of observational notes written during the semester. I'm given two sets of class lists. One is to mark attendance with hours attended & missed. The 2nd is the final score and letter grade. That is all. I have my secretary put the grades into the system.
I make 3 copies of my original forms with all the scribbling on them and bring one with me on holiday, one on my table in my office and one with my secretary. These sheets have all the attendance + grades obtained during the semester. If a student complains about a grade and why, we're both able to see what happened. It also allows my secretary to correct any input errors (one student was failed last year who was given an A and this was easily identified and fixed).
My the last day of exams, my total grading to be submitted to the department is finished. It may mean I'm in my office for an extra 2 hours that day doing spreadsheet work, but on the Friday of finals my grading is complete. I either hand it in that day or the following Monday and leave it at that. At that point I usually wish my other faculty a happy holidays (or good summer) and see them nearly 3 months later.
Have you actually ever worked for a university? Your comments suggest to me that you're speaking out against something you've actually never worked in. |
The secretary does the grading . I wonder how long that will last . Almost every school has the teachers put in the grades themselves. Your situation is an outlier and it won't last.
It takes a long time to correct 130 tests , just like it requires time to make them.
Even if ones uses spread sheet there is this thing called the grading curve that is in place at every school and it takes up to two weeks to get the grades in and complete all the extra paper work
And I can't imagine a school paying airfare 2x a year (unless your university is owned by an airline ) since the overwhelming schools don't pay it even once. Secretaries don't put in grades the teachers do . At Korean universities the Secretaries are not there to help the teachers rather they are there to tell the teachers what to do
That is what it is like to work at a Korean University
Last edited by GENO123 on Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:36 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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