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cj1976
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
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 Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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| There is definitely a victim mentality here. No matter what Japan do or say to make amends, it is of no use. Koreans thrive on that shared misery and sense of suffering. Sometimes, I think Korean people are afraid to be happy. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 7:21 am Post subject: |
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I will go ahead and add this for ROK's defense. From this week:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/30/world/asia/japans-premier-disputes-us-textbooks-portrayal-of-comfort-women.html?smid=fb-share&_r=0
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Prime Minister Shinzo Abe of Japan on Thursday criticized an American textbook that he said inaccurately depicted Japan’s actions during World War II, opening a new front in a battle to sway American views of the country’s wartime history.
Speaking in Parliament, Mr. Abe pledged to increase efforts to fight what he called mistaken views abroad concerning Japan’s wartime actions, when the Japanese military conquered much of Asia. He singled out a high school history textbook published by McGraw-Hill Education that he said contained the sort of negative portrayals that Japan must do more to combat.
In particular, he objected to a description of women forced to work in Japanese military brothels during the war, a highly fraught issue in Japan and elsewhere in Asia. The textbook is used in some public schools in California.
Continue reading the main story
RELATED COVERAGE
Japanese Newspaper Prints Apology for Using the Term ‘Sex Slaves’NOV. 28, 2014
Yoshihide Suga, the chief cabinet secretary, announced an inquiry by a team of scholars.Japan to Revisit Apology to Wartime Sex SlavesFEB. 28, 2014
“I just looked at a document, McGraw-Hill’s textbook, and I was shocked,” The Japan Times quoted Mr. Abe as saying during a meeting of a parliamentary budget committee. “This kind of textbook is being used in the United States, as we did not protest the things we should have, or we failed to correct the things we should have.”
McGraw-Hill has defended its textbook, saying its account is supported by historical fact.
Mr. Abe’s comments come as his government has sharply increased spending to improve Japan’s image abroad. Japanese conservatives like Mr. Abe have bridled at historical depictions of Japan as the sole aggressor in the war, saying that it fought to liberate Asia from Western domination. |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Japanese conservatives like Mr. Abe have bridled at historical depictions of Japan as the sole aggressor in the war, saying that it fought to liberate Asia from Western domination. |
This is a very light reflection of the sentiment I saw depicted on multiple "peace" memorials throughout Japan. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 11:22 am Post subject: |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Japanese conservatives like Mr. Abe have bridled at historical depictions of Japan as the sole aggressor in the war, saying that it fought to liberate Asia from Western domination. |
This is a very light reflection of the sentiment I saw depicted on multiple "peace" memorials throughout Japan. |
From what I have heard from people who have visited, the museum at the Yasukuni Shrine is the height of this- i.e. revisionist history and glorifying militarist Japan. Basically they still follow the narrative that Japan was saving Asia from western imperialism (through harsh Japanese imperialism?) and portray Japan as a victim. |
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southern boy
Joined: 29 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Debating with Steelrail is akin talking to a lobotomized brick. |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| geldedgoat wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Japanese conservatives like Mr. Abe have bridled at historical depictions of Japan as the sole aggressor in the war, saying that it fought to liberate Asia from Western domination. |
This is a very light reflection of the sentiment I saw depicted on multiple "peace" memorials throughout Japan. |
From what I have heard from people who have visited, the museum at the Yasukuni Shrine is the height of this- i.e. revisionist history and glorifying militarist Japan. Basically they still follow the narrative that Japan was saving Asia from western imperialism (through harsh Japanese imperialism?) and portray Japan as a victim. |
Mac should have made Japan a republic back then, and I believe even the imperial family was very much expecting it at the end of WWII. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 4:32 am Post subject: |
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| Chaparrastique wrote: |
Seems to me that the Korean psyche is basically insatiable. The fact that nothing, ever, pleases you is symptomatic of a deeper malaise. You only know how to function within a framework of negativity. |
You have to carefully read the statement to understand what is being done.
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| The Government of Japan would like to take this opportunity once again to extend its sincere apologies and remorse to all those, irrespective of place of origin, who suffered immeasurable pain and incurable physical and psychological wounds as comfort women. |
This statement apologizes for the "pain they experienced", but does not include an accompanying full statement of responsibility. It IS one of the stronger statements they issued but still avoids direct responsibility and full admission of guilt. You really have to read these statements (and any statements on similar issues from any government) carefully.
Let's change a few words and we can see this more clearly-
"My client would like to take this opportunity once again to extend his sincere apologies and remorse to all those, irrespective of place of origin, who suffered immeasurable pain and incurable physical and psychological wounds as victims of rape."
Now, when you read this statement, is this a full on admission of guilt and acceptance of responsibility? It certainly is close, but it leaves some legal wiggle room and obviously intentionally so. It allows Japan to say publicly "We've apologized" but avoid legal responsibility. It is not an admission of guilt. They can say "We were talking about Comfort Women in general, and are not taking legal responsibility". However, this statement is not the final word on the issue. Since then Japan's government has taken steps to distance itself from statements and policies that express their regret.
Now, this is perfectly understandable for Japan to do in a realpolitik sense. The issue is fading into memory and is now being used not just to press legitimate claims, but also as a diplomatic cudgel. However, their behavior does stand in stark contrast to Germany's actions post-WWII. In Germany, all apologies and acceptance of responsibility have been total, unequivocal, and without qualification. There is no legalese, no trumping back and forth between "statements of remorse", "statements of regret", and "apology for general suffering" (as opposed to specific actions).
And this issue is not just a Korean thing. They are the most public faces, but this issue has been pressed by all of the countries Japan occupied as well as by the Dutch. It has gotten attention in virtually every single major media outlet and has garnered broad sympathy. An article in the NYTimes just this last November brought attention to it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/15/opinion/comfort-women-and-japans-war-on-truth.html?_r=0
Lastly as far as functioning in a framework of negativity and nothing satisfying anyone, I think that applies most of all to the complainers on Dave's. Koreans could throw ESLers a parade and give them free BMWs and they'd complain that they were all either black or silver. |
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Cave Dweller
Joined: 17 Aug 2014
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:03 am Post subject: |
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There is something that would shut them up. More money. Japan already paid reparations and will not shell out again.
It reminds me of the victims of Sewol. Many parents are actually absentee dads looking for a payout.
| Chaparrastique wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
Japan's apologies are less than full. |
Really?
Seems to me that the Korean psyche is basically insatiable. The fact that nothing, ever, pleases you is symptomatic of a deeper malaise. You only know how to function within a framework of negativity. |
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Cave Dweller
Joined: 17 Aug 2014
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:05 am Post subject: |
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Pretty much. First he is a pilot. Next he is a battleship captain. Now he thinks he is a lawyer. Law school standards must be dropping.
| southern boy wrote: |
| Debating with Steelrail is akin talking to a lobotomized brick. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Cave Dweller wrote: |
Pretty much. First he is a pilot. Next he is a battleship captain. Now he thinks he is a lawyer. Law school standards must be dropping.
| southern boy wrote: |
| Debating with Steelrail is akin talking to a lobotomized brick. |
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Except I never claimed to be a pilot OR a battleship captain. That's just something you made up either through exaggeration or misreading or blatant lie. You're arguing against something that isn't there. Your argument is basically "Steelrails says water freezes at 0 degrees. Now he thinks he's a chemist". That's how elementary and basic in International Relations the point I'm making is.
The difference between varying levels of diplomatic statements in regards to incidents is something you learn in high school government class and can pick up reading a newspaper. A quick google search can teach you this. These little turns of phrase are important in diplomacy. A classic example is the difference between calling it a "blockade" and "quarantine" in the Cuban Missile Crisis. Functionally, it was a blockade, but calling it a quarantine prevented it from being an act of war. Anyways, I don't believe in dumbing things down and getting upset because someone I'm debating has actually read a book or bothered to study what they are talking about. You're free to debate things in an educated manner and I won't accuse you of pretending to be Dean Rusk. |
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happyinhenan
Joined: 01 Feb 2015
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Cave Dweller wrote: |
Pretty much. First he is a pilot. Next he is a battleship captain. Now he thinks he is a lawyer. Law school standards must be dropping.
| southern boy wrote: |
| Debating with Steelrail is akin talking to a lobotomized brick. |
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Except I never claimed to be a pilot OR a battleship captain. That's just something you made up either through exaggeration or misreading or blatant lie. You're arguing against something that isn't there. Your argument is basically "Steelrails says water freezes at 0 degrees. Now he thinks he's a chemist". That's how elementary and basic in International Relations the point I'm making is.
The difference between varying levels of diplomatic statements in regards to incidents is something you learn in high school government class and can pick up reading a newspaper. A quick google search can teach you this. These little turns of phrase are important in diplomacy. A classic example is the difference between calling it a "blockade" and "quarantine" in the Cuban Missile Crisis. Functionally, it was a blockade, but calling it a quarantine prevented it from being an act of war. Anyways, I don't believe in dumbing things down and getting upset because someone I'm debating has actually read a book or bothered to study what they are talking about. You're free to debate things in an educated manner and I won't accuse you of pretending to be Dean Rusk. |
As a long time reader (and sometimes poster) I have criticised Steelrails in the past but recently - he has been very fair and has posted many time when I have been nodding my head in agreement.
I know it is easy to wield the bamboo cane in his direction on here but his tone and his overall presence has modified a great deal and he talks a lot of sense. So keep going and keep posting Steelrails.  |
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Cave Dweller
Joined: 17 Aug 2014
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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Even English kings needed their court jesters.
I miss Kimchininja. That guy was entertaining.
| happyinhenan wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Cave Dweller wrote: |
Pretty much. First he is a pilot. Next he is a battleship captain. Now he thinks he is a lawyer. Law school standards must be dropping.
| southern boy wrote: |
| Debating with Steelrail is akin talking to a lobotomized brick. |
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Except I never claimed to be a pilot OR a battleship captain. That's just something you made up either through exaggeration or misreading or blatant lie. You're arguing against something that isn't there. Your argument is basically "Steelrails says water freezes at 0 degrees. Now he thinks he's a chemist". That's how elementary and basic in International Relations the point I'm making is.
The difference between varying levels of diplomatic statements in regards to incidents is something you learn in high school government class and can pick up reading a newspaper. A quick google search can teach you this. These little turns of phrase are important in diplomacy. A classic example is the difference between calling it a "blockade" and "quarantine" in the Cuban Missile Crisis. Functionally, it was a blockade, but calling it a quarantine prevented it from being an act of war. Anyways, I don't believe in dumbing things down and getting upset because someone I'm debating has actually read a book or bothered to study what they are talking about. You're free to debate things in an educated manner and I won't accuse you of pretending to be Dean Rusk. |
As a long time reader (and sometimes poster) I have criticised Steelrails in the past but recently - he has been very fair and has posted many time when I have been nodding my head in agreement.
I know it is easy to wield the bamboo cane in his direction on here but his tone and his overall presence has modified a great deal and he talks a lot of sense. So keep going and keep posting Steelrails. |
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happyinhenan
Joined: 01 Feb 2015
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Cave Dweller wrote: |
Even English kings needed their court jesters.
I miss Kimchininja. That guy was entertaining.
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Por Que?
What on earth are you babbling on about? My fluency in 'dopey' is not up to speed these days, could you translate your babble please?  |
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Cave Dweller
Joined: 17 Aug 2014
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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I am saying that Steelrails is only good for comic relief. He should not be taken seriously.
| happyinhenan wrote: |
| Cave Dweller wrote: |
Even English kings needed their court jesters.
I miss Kimchininja. That guy was entertaining.
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Por Que?
What on earth are you babbling on about? My fluency in 'dopey' is not up to speed these days, could you translate your babble please? |
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happyinhenan
Joined: 01 Feb 2015
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| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:25 am Post subject: |
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| Cave Dweller wrote: |
I am saying that Steelrails is only good for comic relief. He should not be taken seriously.
| happyinhenan wrote: |
| Cave Dweller wrote: |
Even English kings needed their court jesters.
I miss Kimchininja. That guy was entertaining.
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Por Que?
What on earth are you babbling on about? My fluency in 'dopey' is not up to speed these days, could you translate your babble please? |
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He's OK - he has improved of late.
I thought you were calling me a 'court jester' so may I take this post to make a public apology, perdon senor.  |
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