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Cave Dweller
Joined: 17 Aug 2014
Location: Seoul
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 Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:43 am Post subject: |
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There are certain artists that just ooze talent. Joni being one of them. A few names come to mind. Sting, Pet Shop Boys, Madonna, George Harrison.
Among modern 'artists', I can not think of one I can say the same about. I am even biting my fist to call most of them artists.
K-Pop is the epitome of Korean society. All flash and no substance.
| schwa wrote: |
| Newbie wrote: |
| Is it comparable to Mozart? Of course not. Comparable to Joni Mitchell or Bob Dylan? Nope. |
I like that you brought Joni into the conversation. Ultimate star of the 20th century in my estimation. She introduced the concept of singer/songwriter & changed modern music.
Heres a great video of her with just her guitar & voice & genius: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Wn2qaUhtxM
Watch that through & tell me you arent moved & that she isnt a significant artist.
Dylan & Waits of course are up there too. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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schwa
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Yap
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| Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:13 am Post subject: |
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| Nice, but not changing the ground. |
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maitaidads
Joined: 08 Oct 2012
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| Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Cave Dweller wrote: |
| Sting, Pet Shop Boys, Madonna, George Harrison. |
Worst mix tape my old, gay uncle ever gave me. |
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Cave Dweller
Joined: 17 Aug 2014
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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Okay Kayne.
My uncle is straight.
| maitaidads wrote: |
| Cave Dweller wrote: |
| Sting, Pet Shop Boys, Madonna, George Harrison. |
Worst mix tape my old, gay uncle ever gave me. |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:34 am Post subject: |
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| Newbie wrote: |
I know a lot of people here rag on K-pop for being complete trash, and a lame copy of 90's Western pop, but it's really not anymore. |
True, it's been updated to a copy of contemporary Western pop. However, as per usual they are a few years behind the sounds because they have to wait for new stuff to be released before they copy it. But although the music modernized a bit, it's still mostly 90's style cheez raps over Michael Bolton-esque crooning, all built on a Backstreet Boys framework. Awesome.
| Quote: |
| I don't know why a bunch of white hipsters get so upset about it. |
What's color got to do with it? Most sane western adults rightly have an aversion to the stuff. But if you want to bring color into it, a lot of blacks I've met here hate K-pop with a passion. Why? It's a clownish direct rip-off of some of their favorite genres (hip hop, Rnb, etc.). Are you going to jump on them too?
Liking K-pop is like going to a nice whiskey bar or brewery and choosing to order a Cass. It can be done, but don't try to pretend it's a tasteful thing to do, and don't call everyone else snobs when you get called out for having crappy taste in beer. |
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Newbie
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Mix1 wrote: |
| Newbie wrote: |
I know a lot of people here rag on K-pop for being complete trash, and a lame copy of 90's Western pop, but it's really not anymore. |
True, it's been updated to a copy of contemporary Western pop. However, as per usual they are a few years behind the sounds because they have to wait for new stuff to be released before they copy it. But although the music modernized a bit, it's still mostly 90's style cheez raps over Michael Bolton-esque crooning, all built on a Backstreet Boys framework. Awesome.
| Quote: |
| I don't know why a bunch of white hipsters get so upset about it. |
What's color got to do with it? Most sane western adults rightly have an aversion to the stuff. But if you want to bring color into it, a lot of blacks I've met here hate K-pop with a passion. Why? It's a clownish direct rip-off of some of their favorite genres (hip hop, Rnb, etc.). Are you going to jump on them too?
Liking K-pop is like going to a nice whiskey bar or brewery and choosing to order a Cass. It can be done, but don't try to pretend it's a tasteful thing to do, and don't call everyone else snobs when you get called out for having crappy taste in beer. |
I bring up "white hipsters" cuz that's a pretty good depiction of people on this board who bitch about K-pop. The "I'm so special, too cool" crowd. And if I knew any "black" people who bitched and moaned about k-pop, I'd tell them the same thing I'm telling my fellow white people: get over yourself. It's just entertainment.
Looking at your whiskey analogy, I don't think you've hit the mark. Sure, if you're considering "whiskey" to be "good" music, then K-pop is indeed Cass. But, first of all, some people just can't handle whiskey. Maybe they only like beer. And if that's the case, why be a snob about it? Just let them drink their beer while you enjoy your whiskey.
Also, what you should be doing is leaving the whiskey/good music in its own bar, and then have another bar where we have Budweiser, Molson, Foster's (Western Pop) and Cass (K-pop), and then making fun of people for choosing Cass over Bud, Molson, or Foster's. It's all, apparently, crap. So why bother fussing about it? (although, I think there's more of a difference between K-pop and Western Pop then there is between Cass and comparable Western Beer).
I don't even know when I'm talking about any more!
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Qonny
Joined: 28 Oct 2014
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| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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The term 'hipster' gets thrown around a lot these days.
Not liking k-pop is hardly some iconoclastic, bold hipster stand. It would be weirder if a bunch of 30+ year old dudes DID like it. Its music scientifically designed to appeal to teenagers/early 20s kids. Look at the replies. Join Mitchell. Pet Shop Boys. Sting. Its hardly the new Sleighbells or Run the Jewels is it. All the ''white hipsters'' i know would far more likely admit to liking kpop anyday before they would ever admit to liking STING for gods sake.
And didnt pitchfork, the absolute apogee of hipsterdom, give g-dragons last album 5 stars or something?
From what i've heard its just typical pop music in overdrive. Some of the production techniques are interesting. My problem is more the ridiculously over emotive 'balladeu' music. That seems to be what most Koreans post 20 like. Its way worse then bouncy kpop. Everything is over sung to painful degrees, and they ALL use exactly the same orchestration. |
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Cave Dweller
Joined: 17 Aug 2014
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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I liied a few particular Korean songs or singers from years past but not the majority. These days they seem to have some quota of sappy lovey shit to put out. Where the talent is lacking, they compromise with pretty faces and choreography.
Not a distinctly Korean music problem either. Just seems a lot more blatant here.
| Qonny wrote: |
The term 'hipster' gets thrown around a lot these days.
Not liking k-pop is hardly some iconoclastic, bold hipster stand. It would be weirder if a bunch of 30+ year old dudes DID like it. Its music scientifically designed to appeal to teenagers/early 20s kids. Look at the replies. Join Mitchell. Pet Shop Boys. Sting. Its hardly the new Sleighbells or Run the Jewels is it. All the ''white hipsters'' i know would far more likely admit to liking kpop anyday before they would ever admit to liking STING for gods sake.
And didnt pitchfork, the absolute apogee of hipsterdom, give g-dragons last album 5 stars or something?
From what i've heard its just typical pop music in overdrive. Some of the production techniques are interesting. My problem is more the ridiculously over emotive 'balladeu' music. That seems to be what most Koreans post 20 like. Its way worse then bouncy kpop. Everything is over sung to painful degrees, and they ALL use exactly the same orchestration. |
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Cave Dweller
Joined: 17 Aug 2014
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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I liied a few particular Korean songs or singers from years past but not the majority. These days they seem to have some quota of sappy lovey shit to put out. Where the talent is lacking, they compromise with pretty faces and choreography.
Not a distinctly Korean music problem either. Just seems a lot more blatant here.
| Qonny wrote: |
The term 'hipster' gets thrown around a lot these days.
Not liking k-pop is hardly some iconoclastic, bold hipster stand. It would be weirder if a bunch of 30+ year old dudes DID like it. Its music scientifically designed to appeal to teenagers/early 20s kids. Look at the replies. Join Mitchell. Pet Shop Boys. Sting. Its hardly the new Sleighbells or Run the Jewels is it. All the ''white hipsters'' i know would far more likely admit to liking kpop anyday before they would ever admit to liking STING for gods sake.
And didnt pitchfork, the absolute apogee of hipsterdom, give g-dragons last album 5 stars or something?
From what i've heard its just typical pop music in overdrive. Some of the production techniques are interesting. My problem is more the ridiculously over emotive 'balladeu' music. That seems to be what most Koreans post 20 like. Its way worse then bouncy kpop. Everything is over sung to painful degrees, and they ALL use exactly the same orchestration. |
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jazzmaster
Joined: 30 Sep 2013
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| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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I don't hear anything particularly new in K-pop. When the K-pop rappers spit in English it sounds corny as hell. "I'm so fresh and clean!" Bitch, people were spitting that in the 90s.
Maybe I'm missing it, but where is the groundbreaking music coming from Korea? Every 3rd band I see in Korea is ripping off early Mogwai. Not even new Mogwai. Early Mogwai from the 90s. Others are rehashed Brit-pop or some other stuff that was big when I was younger. I enjoy Brit-pop but the Korean version is so devoid of any uniqueness or character that it feels like a crappy Xerox version. The time honoured tradition of taking old music and putting a modern spin on it is something I haven't really seen in Korea. I guess that's because creativity and original thinking is something that Koreans (and I) lack. |
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Cave Dweller
Joined: 17 Aug 2014
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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Actually there are so many talented acts out there. The problem is the studios. With guys like JYP running things, it will not change.
Lots of talented people get kicked off shows like K Pop star in favour of those with more marketable looks.
| jazzmaster wrote: |
I don't hear anything particularly new in K-pop. When the K-pop rappers spit in English it sounds corny as hell. "I'm so fresh and clean!" Bitch, people were spitting that in the 90s.
Maybe I'm missing it, but where is the groundbreaking music coming from Korea? Every 3rd band I see in Korea is ripping off early Mogwai. Not even new Mogwai. Early Mogwai from the 90s. Others are rehashed Brit-pop or some other stuff that was big when I was younger. I enjoy Brit-pop but the Korean version is so devoid of any uniqueness or character that it feels like a crappy Xerox version. The time honoured tradition of taking old music and putting a modern spin on it is something I haven't really seen in Korea. I guess that's because creativity and original thinking is something that Koreans (and I) lack. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Mix1 wrote: |
Liking K-pop is like going to a nice whiskey bar or brewery and choosing to order a Cass. It can be done, but don't try to pretend it's a tasteful thing to do, and don't call everyone else snobs when you get called out for having crappy taste in beer. |
Actually I think the anti-Kpop hate is like going into a local watering hole and wondering why people aren't drinking fine wine. I don't think the "going into a whiskey bar" analogy really works. Also, I don't really give a crap what someone else drinks. I certainly don't think I'm a better person because I drink certain beers or listen to certain music. I certainly wouldn't go over to someone and start mocking them because of what kind of beer they drink. Something is seriously wrong with a person who does that. It's like they have so little in their life that they are reduced to mocking someone over what beer they like.
People talk about Korean insecurity. This anti-Kpop hate and getting all bent out of shape over what other people listen to and being upset that they don't share your taste in music pretty much defines insecurity. Not to mention the idea that you listen to music to define your status and to be at a "higher level of music" than someone else. What the heck ever happened to just liking music because you enjoy it?
If I like a song, I'll listen to it. I don't care how it defines my status or what group it associates me with. I listen to virtually every genre of music. If I like a classical/blues/gospel/metal/rap/bluegrass/zydeco/etc. song, I'll download it. I'll freely admit my knowledge isn't very deep. I have a broad taste, not a narrow one. I even have a few Kpop songs I enjoy (mostly from the 90s) but every now and then a new one will work its way onto the rotation for a few weeks before being consigned to the mp3 folder of history.
If you like it, listen to it.
| jazzmaster wrote: |
| I guess that's because creativity and original thinking is something that Koreans (and I) lack. |
I've said it before and I'll say it again, generally music is seen as something that brings people together, not something you use to separate and identify yourself with (though of course there are some subcultures here where people do do that). Why is this? What is one of the most dominant social activities that Koreans do? Noraebang. Duh. It's meant to bring people together. That means you need music of, frankly, a low common denominator. That's fine. Drunken standards are fun with music from back home as well.
If you want quality and creativity, it seems the outlet where Koreans emphasize this is in film. Korean film is generally well-regarded internationally. It's won awards at the highest levels. Hollywood at times copies it. |
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Newbie
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 6:37 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Actually I think the anti-Kpop hate is like going into a local watering hole and wondering why people aren't drinking fine wine. I don't think the "going into a whiskey bar" analogy really works. Also, I don't really give a crap what someone else drinks. I certainly don't think I'm a better person because I drink certain beers or listen to certain music. I certainly wouldn't go over to someone and start mocking them because of what kind of beer they drink. Something is seriously wrong with a person who does that. It's like they have so little in their life that they are reduced to mocking someone over what beer they like. |
That was a much better deconstruction of Mix's analogy than I did!
The funny thing is, here in the Dave's ESL world it seems perfectly normal to mock people because of their taste in beer.
| Steelrails wrote: |
| People talk about Korean insecurity. This anti-Kpop hate and getting all bent out of shape over what other people listen to and being upset that they don't share your taste in music pretty much defines insecurity. Not to mention the idea that you listen to music to define your status and to be at a "higher level of music" than someone else. What the heck ever happened to just liking music because you enjoy it? |
I don't really think it's an insecurity thing. More just a "I'm a douche" kind of arrogance.
And sometimes I do wonder: if there weren't so many insecure Koreans who were trying to push K-pop onto foreigners, and news stations/websites/whatever talking about K-pop taking over the world, etc, if maybe we wouldn't hear so many people bashing K-pop as much as they do. Perhaps if it was just there, people could happily ignore it.
| Steelrails wrote: |
If you want quality and creativity, it seems the outlet where Koreans emphasize this is in film. Korean film is generally well-regarded internationally. It's won awards at the highest levels. Hollywood at times copies it. |
I don't know about this one either. Seems like maybe a handful, or less, of Korean films having been well received internationally. But for the most part, Korean films are pretty painful and slide under the international radar (the broad international radar; well received in Asia).
And when it comes to copying, all I know of is that Sassy Girl flick, I think some Cottage House movie (or something like that. Some cheesy romance with Keanu Reeves being a ghost and visiting a cottage him and his lover use to share??), and apparently Old Boy is being remade, but isn't Old Boy originally Japanese? Maybe there are more I'm not aware of, but I hardly think it's enough copying to go on to say that Hollywood looks to Korea for source materials. |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| jazz master wrote: |
| ...the Korean version is so devoid of any uniqueness or character that it feels like a crappy Xerox version. |
That says it all.
But it is slightly unique in that they take some of the worst western pop sounds/cliches and throw them into one song, then keep their finger permanently pressed on the "cheez" and "annoy" buttons.
When something is a "crappy Xerox version" it simply needs to be stated as such. If someone prefers the crappy, copied, cheez version of something, that's fine, but don't expect everyone to not mention what it really is.
And back to the Cass analogy (which you guys loved apparently), it's not like the guy who ordered Cass is just sitting there drinking it .... no, he's also going around the bar trying to convince everyone how it's an amazing, original beer that deserves attention and trying to get everyone in the bar to sip from his glass, and when they rightly say it's the inferior, cheaper beer... he yells 'snobs! Why all the hate?' What a kook.
He then brings his two friends into the bar (Steels and Noobs) to go around and lecture everyone on the merits of Cass. Everyone drinks some just to shut them up, but end up with awful Cass hangovers.
It's kind of like if government bureaucrats helped fund Cass with an aggressive worldwide marketing campaign sponsored by Korean government money (like K-pop does). The goal is to promote Korea (for both pride and for profit sake) and take market share from American beer companies. They change the logo to some crazy color scheme to grab attention, launch 1000 near-identical beers, all copied from the cheapest American beers, and then brand them "K-beer". Sure, some people would go for it, but plenty more would not.
Interesting reads:
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/asia-pacific/south-korea/131120/how-korean-bureaucrats-turned-k-pop-national-s
http://www.adweek.com/news/advertising-branding/how-south-korea-uses-psy-vixx-and-all-k-pop-burnish-its-image-159914 |
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