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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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 Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
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| You're basically suggesting that playing the lottery is good value. Honestly, how many students see real improvement in their English skills without attending hagwon? |
I've met loads of Koreans with a good knowledge of English without going to a hagwan or studying abroad. |
I call BS on that. Most have had foreign exposure to English. Try having lived here several years ago when most who spoke English were home trained and they mostly sucked at it unless they went abroad. Having us here to force English in a non bilingual country has had an effect. |
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Underwaterbob
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito
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| Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Underwaterbob wrote: |
| The question is: does anyone care? At the end of the day, students are still evaluated on just about every facet of their English except their ability to effectively verbally communicate. |
So? Interaction with foreign teachers isn't limited to improving speaking ability, after all. If we do our jobs well, our students should not only be better speakers, but better listeners, better readers, and better writers, and all of those things are tested. Not that I'm suggested English should only be valued as a means to passing a test, of course, but even within the context of that view, foreign teachers stand to be helpful. |
Good point, but they're all-too-often evaluated in those aspects of their English ability based on what their Korean English teachers have taught them and not any extra tips they may have picked up from us.
A couple years back, a student asked me about a question on their English exam and I answered honestly that I thought the question was quite ambiguous and that the student's interpretation was as valid as the "correct" one. Not long afterwards I was told to never talk to students about their test questions and to refer them to their Korean teacher. Granted, some of the less, ummm, stodgy teachers actually consult me when making test questions as well. They even had me making them for a little while, but then they stopped.
Last edited by Underwaterbob on Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| I call BS on that. |
I used to do placement testing for an adult hagwan and interviewed a lot of adult students. One of the questions I'd always ask was where they learned their English. A lot of them who whose standard of English was OK (I'm talking maybe intermediate level here, nothing special) said they only learned it at school. You can call BS on them if you like but I'm just reporting what they said |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
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| I call BS on that. |
I used to do placement testing for an adult hagwan and interviewed a lot of adult students. One of the questions I'd always ask was where they learned their English. A lot of them who whose standard of English was OK (I'm talking maybe intermediate level here, nothing special) said they only learned it at school. You can call BS on them if you like but I'm just reporting what they said |
...and i met the kids when i first got here who had never met a foreigner before until me in their middle school and they were terrible at English. Fast forward several years later where many of them met a foreigner when they were kids and theri English in middle school is far superior than before. |
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wooden nickels
Joined: 23 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
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| I call BS on that. |
I used to do placement testing for an adult hagwan and interviewed a lot of adult students. One of the questions I'd always ask was where they learned their English. A lot of them who whose standard of English was OK (I'm talking maybe intermediate level here, nothing special) said they only learned it at school. You can call BS on them if you like but I'm just reporting what they said |
I have done placement testing for adults in a hagwan. I still do and I also teach them. Most every adult student who interviews to attend or attends an English hagwan are in the top 15% of English speaking ability anyway, exposed to a foreigner or not. Of those 15%, the better speakers have generally had additional English education beyond public school, have worked around native English speakers, or have been around native English speakers in one manner or another. You need to understand what you are measuring. What you are measuring may be correct but you aren't measuring everything. It's called cherry picking.
The more contact the English language learner has with native English speakers/teachers generally the better they are at the language. I have literally worked with thousands and thousands of foreign/second language learners, around 30 years in the business. My BA and MA are in foreign language education. I can say without a doubt that language learners pick up a language better when exposed to the language more.
I think it's a good idea to have native speakers/teachers in public schools, preferably in elementary schools and let the overflow go to middle and high schools. |
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wooden nickels
Joined: 23 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Weigookin74 wrote: |
| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I call BS on that. |
I used to do placement testing for an adult hagwan and interviewed a lot of adult students. One of the questions I'd always ask was where they learned their English. A lot of them who whose standard of English was OK (I'm talking maybe intermediate level here, nothing special) said they only learned it at school. You can call BS on them if you like but I'm just reporting what they said |
...and i met the kids when i first got here who had never met a foreigner before until me in their middle school and they were terrible at English. Fast forward several years later where many of them met a foreigner when they were kids and theri English in middle school is far superior than before. |
You have made very good observations. This is what most everyone who has been here for any length of time will tell you they have observed. |
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Who's Your Daddy?
Joined: 30 May 2010
Location: Victoria, Canada.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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| I worked as a public school teacher for about 8 years. Yes, I saw my students improve, but I think it was due to their hogwans and not the public school. These kids have many English teachers. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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I have done placement testing for adults in a hagwan. I still do and I also teach them. Most every adult student who interviews to attend or attends an English hagwan are in the top 15% of English speaking ability anyway, exposed to a foreigner or not. Of those 15%, the better speakers have generally had additional English education beyond public school, have worked around native English speakers, or have been around native English speakers in one manner or another. You need to understand what you are measuring. What you are measuring may be correct but you aren't measuring everything. It's called cherry picking.
The more contact the English language learner has with native English speakers/teachers generally the better they are at the language. I have literally worked with thousands and thousands of foreign/second language learners, around 30 years in the business. My BA and MA are in foreign language education. I can say without a doubt that language learners pick up a language better when exposed to the language more.
I think it's a good idea to have native speakers/teachers in public schools, preferably in elementary schools and let the overflow go to middle and high schools. |
I think you and weigookin 74 need to look back and actually read what I said
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| I've met loads of Koreans with a good knowledge of English without going to a hagwan or studying abroad. |
There are plenty of ways of getting exposure to native speakers apart from these two methods. At Public school for one |
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wooden nickels
Joined: 23 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Who's Your Daddy? wrote: |
| I worked as a public school teacher for about 8 years. Yes, I saw my students improve, but I think it was due to their hogwans and not the public school. These kids have many English teachers. |
I believe hogwans are more of a contributing factor for sure. However, I'm sure you had some influence on some of your students in the public schools.
I will go out on a limb and say that students who attend at least some of the better hogwans get a much better education from their Korean and Native teachers than the education they receive from the public schools here.
I often talked to students in the hallways, and before and after school. There were students who even came to the teachers' room to talk to me during their breaks. I sometimes played basketball with some of the students after school. Students would often follow me, between the bus stop and the school, and talk. When I encountered my students in marts and shops on weekends they would usually come up and start a conversation with me. I was the first foreign teacher at their public school. I think it had some impact on their English ability and their approach to English. At least they realized that a foreigner was more than someone who is detained at a hagwon. A real life situation beyond the zoo approach. Hey, foreigners are people too! |
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talentedcrayon
Joined: 27 Aug 2013
Location: Why do you even care?
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| Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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The main issue with the NET programs was that they lacked training, consistency, curriculum, purpose, direction, oversight, competent HRM (Human Resource Management)...
A secondary, yet equally as important reason it failed was the NETs themselves. I can testify from my experience at a GEPIK conference, more than 50% of teachers were completely unprofessional. Most didn't show up for the morning sessions, people were caught having sex in the main auditorium... Some people were drunk from Monday to Thursday. From the perspective of the Koreans running the show, I can totally see how they would get the idea: "this is a complete waste of money."
As a result of the issues, both with US and THEM the whole program WAS IN FACT a waste of money.
However, I actually believe if it was implemented better, it could have had a real positive impact. But I believe it did not make much of a difference.
I remember when I arrived at my school my school just told me: "Go, teach." This was my first time teaching abroad... So, I asked for direction. They slapped a textbook down in front of me and said: "This is what we are teaching, maybe just base lessons off this?"
My classes were multi-level, with varying levels of enthusiasm. Overall, I think I managed to do a decent job, yet I was never really satisfied with myself. I knew that I was just scrapping by... partly due to my own inexperience, but also because of a complete failure on the part of the GEPIK program to provide a curriculum/training.
Last edited by talentedcrayon on Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:57 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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happyinhenan
Joined: 01 Feb 2015
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| Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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| talentedcrayon wrote: |
I remember when I arrived for GEPIK. My school just told me: "Go, teach." This was my first time teaching abroad. So, I asked for direction. They slapped a textbook down in front of me and said: "This is what we are teaching, maybe just based lessons off this?"
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You got a textbook? Lucky you!!  |
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wooden nickels
Joined: 23 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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| talentedcrayon wrote: |
The main issue with the NET programs was that they lacked training, consistency, curriculum, purpose, direction, oversight, competent HRM (Human Resource Management)...
A secondary, yet equally as important reason it failed was the NETs themselves. I can testify from my experience at a GEPIK conference, more than 50% of teachers were completely unprofessional. Most didn't show up for the morning sessions, people were caught having sex in the main auditorium... Some people were drunk from Monday to Thursday. From the perspective of the Koreans running the show, I can totally see how they would get the idea: "this is a complete waste of money."
As a result of the issues, both with US and THEM the whole program WAS IN FACT a waste of money.
However, I actually believe if it was implemented better, it could have had a real positive impact. But I believe it did not make much of a difference.
I remember when I arrived at my school my school just told me: "Go, teach." This was my first time teaching abroad... So, I asked for direction. They slapped a textbook down in front of me and said: "This is what we are teaching, maybe just base lessons off this?"
My classes were multi-level, with varying levels of enthusiasm. Overall, I think I managed to do a decent job, yet I was never really satisfied with myself. I knew that I was just scrapping by... partly due to my own inexperience, but also because of a complete failure on the part of the GEPIK program to provide a curriculum/training. |
I think in many ways it has been a good idea. But it definitely hasn't been productive and it hasn't been a value for the money. It has just been a better than nothing approach. Outside of that, I agree with you, TOTALLY. |
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talentedcrayon
Joined: 27 Aug 2013
Location: Why do you even care?
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| Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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It was a losing battle Happyinhenan.
I have respect for the teachers who tried their best. There were quite a few who did. I know many who struggled every week to put a decent lesson together (myself among them).
Should they bring back these programs? My answer is unequivocally: "No."
However, if they actually hired a team of competent, experienced teachers, who could put together a great curriculum and then taught new hires how to teach the curriculum... AND THEN... assess teachers, and provide feedback and fire the ones who aren't doing the job properly... THEN and ONLY THEN... should they ever consider ressurecting these programs.
If I was running GEPIK, I would have shut the whole thing down in 2009 after I witnessed teachers having drunk sex for all to see in the entrance to the conference centre. That night... what a bizarre night... definitely going in my book. |
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wooden nickels
Joined: 23 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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| happyinhenan wrote: |
| talentedcrayon wrote: |
I remember when I arrived for GEPIK. My school just told me: "Go, teach." This was my first time teaching abroad. So, I asked for direction. They slapped a textbook down in front of me and said: "This is what we are teaching, maybe just based lessons off this?"
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You got a textbook? Lucky you!! |
Same here. No textbook. Nothing. Just, do whatever you want. 1500 students. |
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talentedcrayon
Joined: 27 Aug 2013
Location: Why do you even care?
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| Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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| wooden nickels wrote: |
Same here. No textbook. Nothing. Just, do whatever you want. 1500 students. |
Holy moly... I only had 600 students... That's insane.
BTW I never used the text, it was trash. I ended up playing powerpoint games, bringing my guitar and doing sing alongs... Teaching them about Canada...
I tried to teach some survival English... but that was a total disaster... (oh the irony) |
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