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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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 Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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The U.S. military trains people to learn Korean (though not so much anymore as there are loads of KATUSA and ethnically Korean U.S. citizens who are already bilingually, owning to the fact they grew up speaking both from a young age, a time when the human brain can more easily pick up a second language).
How long did it take the trainees to get to low working proficiency in the language?
2,200 class hours for the course, but outside of class one was expected to study day and night, too.
Only those who showed a giftedness for language learning through a language aptitude test were selected to enter this course in the first place.
Most of those didn't even pass the class; only a minority did.
Learning Korean is hard as hell. It takes a long time.
If you want to spend years and years and years of your life studying it, that's your choice.
Just be aware it is more difficult than you could ever imagine. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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| It's not all that hard. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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I guess you are a genius then if you think Korean is not hard.
Why are virtually all lifers with Korean wives and Korean kids unable to speak the language? |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
Why are virtually all lifers with Korean wives and Korean kids unable to speak the language? |
They didn't bother to drill vocabulary on their smart phones with Anki a few minutes here and there each day. That's the reason: lack of vocabulary. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:06 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Why are virtually all lifers with Korean wives and Korean kids unable to speak the language? |
They don't try. As I said before Korean is too difficult to just pick up without doing anything but as Fox said not that difficult if you actually make the effort to learn it. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:28 am Post subject: |
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I don't think so, man. You said you lived in Korea for ten years and at some point paid to take classes, yet at the end (of your stay in Korea) you were still at a low elementary level. What's the explanation for that? You just didn't try much?
Also, I remember a past post where you said out of the approximately twenty Westerners you knew married to Koreans not a single one could speak Korean. (Then later you wrote out of all the Westerners you (ever?) worked with, one and only one was decent at Korean.)
It's a hard language, man. Very hard. If you yourself haven't advanced that much, you aren't full aware of the learning curve really.
Just because you see Sam Hammington on TV speaking it doesn't mean it's not all that difficult. He himself said it's not easy to learn. That was his major in university and he's 37 now so that means he's been at it for a good twenty years. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:45 am Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Why are virtually all lifers with Korean wives and Korean kids unable to speak the language? |
They don't try. As I said before Korean is too difficult to just pick up without doing anything but as Fox said not that difficult if you actually make the effort to learn it. |
The lack of study...and also, no need.
Ed, you mentioned you learned the other languages, but not Korean.
Perhaps out of respect but also necessity?
With a Korean wife...the necessity part is lacking...yes?
Not to make things seem too simplistic, as there are many reasons, but it does seem odd that I know several guys, all pretty smart, who can speak several languages, but not Korean. They have Korean wives and more than 10 years in county.
It's an interesting mix. Some guys pick it up...others don't.
I know some married guys who speak two languages. Drunk English and perfect Korean. Lots of combinations.
But...as Fox mentions...the ones who don't speak Korean, just aren't studying. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:57 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
I don't think so, man. You said you lived in Korea for ten years and at some point paid to take classes, yet at the end (of your stay in Korea) you were still at a low elementary level. What's the explanation for that? You just didn't try much?
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I tried for the time I was taking classes and was making headway. From complete beginner to low elementary level after about 4 months. When I stopped I didn't use it and forgot most of it.
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The lack of study...and also, no need.
Ed, you mentioned you learned the other languages, but not Korean.
Perhaps out of respect but also necessity?
With a Korean wife...the necessity part is lacking...yes?
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Yes, although some might say having a Korean wife should be a reason to learn it. In fact my wife told me not to bother. I did find people in other countries expect foreigners to speak the local language more. |
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ghostrider
Joined: 27 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Too much black and white thinking in this thread. Most adults won't be 100% successful at learning other languages. But they won't be 100% failures either. Look at Consoleman from KS. His posts contain a lot of grammatical errors, but he does manage to communicate his ideas much of the time. I'm guessing he didn't learn English as a child or he learned English from a Korean teacher who didn't speak English very well. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:14 am Post subject: |
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| ghostrider wrote: |
| Too much black and white thinking in this thread. |
Hey Fox...
If one were looking to be offended by any particular word or phrase...this would do nicely.
Too much African American and Caucasian thinking in this thread.
What about the Asians? They do a lot of thinking, too.
Newspeak is watching. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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| SeoulNate wrote: |
| World Traveler wrote: |
The language is not easy at all. For one, adults (generally speaking...I realize there are rare exceptions) can't learn languages as well as children.
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Zero research to back this up. Zero. It is a fallacy. All research done in the educational field points to adults actually being far superior to children in all aspects of learning, language included. |
Not true.
http://www.academia.edu/4271426/The_effects_of_age_on_second_language_grammar_and_speech_production
And from Wiki:
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Older learners of a second language rarely achieve the native-like fluency that younger learners display, despite often progressing faster than children in the initial stages. David Singleton states that in learning a second language, "younger = better in the long run," but points out that there are many exceptions, noting that five percent of adult bilinguals master a second language even though they begin learning it when they are well into adulthood—long after any critical period has presumably come to a close.
While the window for learning a second language never completely closes, certain linguistic aspects appear to be more affected by the age of the learner than others. For example, adult second-language learners nearly always retain an immediately identifiable foreign accent, including some who display perfect grammar (Oyama 1976). Some writers have suggested a younger critical age for learning phonology than for syntax. Singleton (1995) reports that there is no critical period for learning vocabulary in a second language. Robertson (2002)] observed that factors other than age may be even more significant in successful second-language learning, such as personal motivation, anxiety, input and output skills, settings and time commitment.
On reviewing the published material, Bialystok and Hakuta (1994) conclude that second-language learning is not necessarily subject to biological critical periods, but "on average, there is a continuous decline in ability [to learn] with age." |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| ghostrider wrote: |
| Too much black and white thinking in this thread. |
Hey Fox...
If one were looking to be offended by any particular word or phrase...this would do nicely.
Too much African American and Caucasian thinking in this thread.
What about the Asians? They do a lot of thinking, too.
Newspeak is watching. |
Clearly an apology is in order, followed by a lecture on being professional. Intention means nothing now, only the lowest common denominator of offense. |
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Plain Meaning
Joined: 18 Oct 2014
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| Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| ghostrider wrote: |
| Too much black and white thinking in this thread. |
Hey Fox...
If one were looking to be offended by any particular word or phrase...this would do nicely. |
Not really. You'd have to be extraordinarily hypersensitive, like an anti-theist level of hypersensitivity, to read anything into that. |
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SeoulNate
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
Location: Hyehwa
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| Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
| SeoulNate wrote: |
| World Traveler wrote: |
The language is not easy at all. For one, adults (generally speaking...I realize there are rare exceptions) can't learn languages as well as children.
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Zero research to back this up. Zero. It is a fallacy. All research done in the educational field points to adults actually being far superior to children in all aspects of learning, language included. |
Not true.
http://www.academia.edu/4271426/The_effects_of_age_on_second_language_grammar_and_speech_production
And from Wiki:
| Quote: |
Older learners of a second language rarely achieve the native-like fluency that younger learners display, despite often progressing faster than children in the initial stages. David Singleton states that in learning a second language, "younger = better in the long run," but points out that there are many exceptions, noting that five percent of adult bilinguals master a second language even though they begin learning it when they are well into adulthood—long after any critical period has presumably come to a close.
While the window for learning a second language never completely closes, certain linguistic aspects appear to be more affected by the age of the learner than others. For example, adult second-language learners nearly always retain an immediately identifiable foreign accent, including some who display perfect grammar (Oyama 1976). Some writers have suggested a younger critical age for learning phonology than for syntax. Singleton (1995) reports that there is no critical period for learning vocabulary in a second language. Robertson (2002)] observed that factors other than age may be even more significant in successful second-language learning, such as personal motivation, anxiety, input and output skills, settings and time commitment.
On reviewing the published material, Bialystok and Hakuta (1994) conclude that second-language learning is not necessarily subject to biological critical periods, but "on average, there is a continuous decline in ability [to learn] with age." |
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Read what you quoted again. Did you read any of it other than the first sentence? |
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SeoulNate
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
Location: Hyehwa
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| Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
Who is better at effortlessly acquiring/correctly using grammar? Kids.
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First language, sure. Second language, not so much.
Again, the reason why it seems like kids who go to English Kindergarten in Korea have more success with the language is simply do to time, motivation and to a lesser extent, affective filter.
They get 30+ hours a week of exactly what is needed to learn a language: Comprehensible input in the L2, tons of modified interaction, and an engaging classroom with a very low affective filter.
Adults, when they study, are the complete opposite of this. If you dropped adults into an immersive English environment (or Korean in this case) with the same kinds of instruction the students got, they would also learn 'effortlessly'. |
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