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Smithington
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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 Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Plain Meaning wrote: |
| Whatever is superior about not believing in God? It is a childish conceit. |
It's not a "childish conceit". It is the insistence that one's understanding of the world (and existence itself) be based facts and not fantasy. It is the complete opposite of a childish conceit. Believing that you are so special that your mumbled prayer has supernatural powers to move the universe behind your preferred cause is what's childish. Having a fact-based understanding of the world is definitely superior to one based on fantasy and the scribblings of people who didn't know where the sun went at night. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:41 am Post subject: |
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| Smithington wrote: |
| Having a fact-based understanding of the world is definitely superior to one based on fantasy and the scribblings of people who didn't know where the sun went at night. |
But it's not superior to someone who is just a nice person. You can have a fact-based understanding of the world and still be a jerk. A person can base their life on fantasy and scribblings and be a nice person.
I'd rather interact with a nice person who believed in that fantasy than a person who had a "fact-based understanding" and used that understanding for ill.
My life experience has taught me that the qualities of gentleness, patience, understanding, compassion, self-control, honor, loyalty, honesty, goodness, etc. are far more important than "fact-based understanding". |
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Plain Meaning
Joined: 18 Oct 2014
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| Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Smithington wrote: |
| Believing that you are so special that your mumbled prayer has supernatural powers to move the universe behind your preferred cause is what's childish. |
Many people who pray understand its a bit different from pure wish-fulfillment. No wonder you have such contempt for the religious. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
But it's not superior to someone who is just a nice person. You can have a fact-based understanding of the world and still be a jerk. A person can base their life on fantasy and scribblings and be a nice person.
I'd rather interact with a nice person who believed in that fantasy than a person who had a "fact-based understanding" and used that understanding for ill.
My life experience has taught me that the qualities of gentleness, patience, understanding, compassion, self-control, honor, loyalty, honesty, goodness, etc. are far more important than "fact-based understanding". |
OK...but let's add the variables you describe in a way that makes things less biased.
All the good you mention + fantasy = ideal ?
or
All the good you mention + reality = ideal ?
The choice is really that simple in modern society.
And it isn't a one time choice. We keep choosing every moment of our lives.
Fantasy has its place in this world...and it is an amazing place to visit.
However, choosing to live there permanently seems unwise.
Just because many people make believe in the same imaginary friend makes it no more credible than one man's Harvey. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Plain Meaning wrote: |
| Smithington wrote: |
I can't believe this needs explaining.`Would Smithington uttering a prayer help speed up his recovery? Or would it just make me feel better about myself while contributing nothing to his recovery. I think we all know the answer. At least I do. |
I do not see how criticizing people for praying for others, when you haven't done anything affirmative to help those others yourself, places you in a superior moral position. In this respect, it is similar to refusing to believe in a God and criticizing those who do.
It just makes you look like a disputatious and argumentative jerk.
If you don't think prayer is effective, I get it. Unless anyone asks you to pray, there is no reason to come down on them for expressing sympathy in this way. |
Well said. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Smithington wrote: |
| Having a fact-based understanding of the world is definitely superior to one based on fantasy and the scribblings of people who didn't know where the sun went at night. |
But it's not superior to someone who is just a nice person. You can have a fact-based understanding of the world and still be a jerk. A person can base their life on fantasy and scribblings and be a nice person.
I'd rather interact with a nice person who believed in that fantasy than a person who had a "fact-based understanding" and used that understanding for ill.
My life experience has taught me that the qualities of gentleness, patience, understanding, compassion, self-control, honor, loyalty, honesty, goodness, etc. are far more important than "fact-based understanding". |
One of your best posts. |
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goreality
Joined: 09 Jul 2009
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| Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Smithington wrote: |
| Having a fact-based understanding of the world is definitely superior to one based on fantasy and the scribblings of people who didn't know where the sun went at night. |
But it's not superior to someone who is just a nice person. You can have a fact-based understanding of the world and still be a jerk. A person can base their life on fantasy and scribblings and be a nice person.
I'd rather interact with a nice person who believed in that fantasy than a person who had a "fact-based understanding" and used that understanding for ill.
My life experience has taught me that the qualities of gentleness, patience, understanding, compassion, self-control, honor, loyalty, honesty, goodness, etc. are far more important than "fact-based understanding". |
One of your best posts. |
I think the whole point of this is that one's belief in the supernatural or facts doesn't necessarily have any effect on how they treat and respect other people. |
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Smithington
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Smithington wrote: |
| Having a fact-based understanding of the world is definitely superior to one based on fantasy and the scribblings of people who didn't know where the sun went at night. |
But it's not superior to someone who is just a nice person. You can have a fact-based understanding of the world and still be a jerk. A person can base their life on fantasy and scribblings and be a nice person.
I'd rather interact with a nice person who believed in that fantasy than a person who had a "fact-based understanding" and used that understanding for ill.
My life experience has taught me that the qualities of gentleness, patience, understanding, compassion, self-control, honor, loyalty, honesty, goodness, etc. are far more important than "fact-based understanding". |
One of your best posts. |
His post is idiotic. You can have a fact-based understanding of the world and still embody all of those those values, just as you can be a convinced theist and yet be a selfish, self-centered jerk. The Republican Party in the US is only one of countless examples of this. The listed virtues can, for sure, also be held by religious people. They are not exclusive to one camp. But as has already been pointed out, it is better to have these values and also possess a fact-based understanding of the world than these virtues and an ignorant, childish understanding of the world.
His post is plain dumb. |
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Smithington
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| My life experience has taught me that the qualities of gentleness, patience, understanding, compassion, self-control, honor, loyalty, honesty, goodness, etc. are far more important than "fact-based understanding". |
Interesting that you should list these values in a thread about cruelty to animals. Where, exactly, are these virtues apparent in the Korean dog meat industry and those on Daves who patronize and defend it? There's plenty of religious folk who don't give a damn about how their food is raised, transported and killed. And plenty of non-theists who do. I'd also be interested to know how many of these virtues you believe apply to you. Self-control, really? Honesty, realy? Honor, really? All these virtues from a bloke who has no qualms about twisting peoples' words, misrepresenting their arguments, and who rushes to defend Korea at all costs..regardless of the facts on the ground. There's not a lot of honesty or integrity in that, mate. There really isn't. And as for honesty, isn't that a central component of having a facts-based understanding of reality? You can't be "honest" while peddling religious fictions. Yahweh is a fictional character. The earth is not 10,000 years old. Prayer does not work. To resist these facts, and withold them from others, hardly makes one honest.
But nice try. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Smithington wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Smithington wrote: |
| Having a fact-based understanding of the world is definitely superior to one based on fantasy and the scribblings of people who didn't know where the sun went at night. |
But it's not superior to someone who is just a nice person. You can have a fact-based understanding of the world and still be a jerk. A person can base their life on fantasy and scribblings and be a nice person.
I'd rather interact with a nice person who believed in that fantasy than a person who had a "fact-based understanding" and used that understanding for ill.
My life experience has taught me that the qualities of gentleness, patience, understanding, compassion, self-control, honor, loyalty, honesty, goodness, etc. are far more important than "fact-based understanding". |
One of your best posts. |
His post is idiotic. You can have a fact-based understanding of the world and still embody all of those those values, just as you can be a convinced theist and yet be a selfish, self-centered jerk. The Republican Party in the US is only one of countless examples of this. The listed virtues can, for sure, also be held by religious people. They are not exclusive to one camp. But as has already been pointed out, it is better to have these values and also possess a fact-based understanding of the world than these virtues and an ignorant, childish understanding of the world.
His post is plain dumb. |
You've completely misread his post. He posted none of what you claim.
Get your facts straight. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:00 am Post subject: |
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| Smithington wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| My life experience has taught me that the qualities of gentleness, patience, understanding, compassion, self-control, honor, loyalty, honesty, goodness, etc. are far more important than "fact-based understanding". |
Interesting that you should list these values in a thread about cruelty to animals. Where, exactly, are these virtues apparent in the Korean dog meat industry and those on Daves who patronize and defend it? There's plenty of religious folk who don't give a damn about how their food is raised, transported and killed. And plenty of non-theists who do. I'd also be interested to know how many of these virtues you believe apply to you. Self-control, really? Honesty, realy? Honor, really? All these virtues from a bloke who has no qualms about twisting peoples' words, misrepresenting their arguments, and who rushes to defend Korea at all costs..regardless of the facts on the ground. There's not a lot of honesty or integrity in that, mate. There really isn't. And as for honesty, isn't that a central component of having a facts-based understanding of reality? You can't be "honest" while peddling religious fictions. Yahweh is a fictional character. The earth is not 10,000 years old. Prayer does not work. To resist these facts, and withold them from others, hardly makes one honest.
But nice try. |
Pot meet kettle. You're obviously misrepresenting what many who believe in God believe.
As for prayer, since you seem to be having trouble understanding what others are posting, I suggest you start here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efficacy_of_prayer
You can hardly expect to convince others of their ignorance while flaunting your own, can you smythie? |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:08 am Post subject: |
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Smithington, I say this thread is proof of the Hand of Providence as somehow you have managed to unite me and atwood and increase the respect we have for each other. Surely the Divine must be at work for something like this to come to pass.
In the spirit of magnanimity, all I can say is thank you Smithington for this Miracle on Dave's Street.
And cheers atwood. And I say this in all seriousness, thank you for your prayers for Ambassador Lippert. Reasonable people may disagree on the existence of a Higher Power, but they all understand kindness and consideration. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:59 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Smithington, I say this thread is proof of the Hand of Providence as somehow you have managed to unite me and atwood and increase the respect we have for each other. Surely the Divine must be at work for something like this to come to pass.
In the spirit of magnanimity, all I can say is thank you Smithington for this Miracle on Dave's Street.
And cheers atwood. And I say this in all seriousness, thank you for your prayers for Ambassador Lippert. Reasonable people may disagree on the existence of a Higher Power, but they all understand kindness and consideration. |
Yes..good call...the best way to circumvent antagonistically intelligent discussion is to go full retard.
At least that way it becomes obvious that no ill intent was meant and neither was serious debate.
Nice to keep using similar movie genre connections...well done.
Cheers. |
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Smithington
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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Wikipedia.  |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Smithington wrote: |
Wikipedia. |
As I wrote, a place for you to start. I tired to make it simple for you. But I see from your sarcasm that you don't understand compassion. |
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