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Sister Ray
Joined: 25 Mar 2006
Location: Fukuoka
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 Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
If I had to choose between a captive bolt gun and then getting my throat slit or being disemboweled by a bear and having my insides or leg eaten as I slowly bleed out and linger on, I'd take the factory method. |
The bolt gun is just the last few seconds of a life dominated by the cruelty and subjugation inherent in modern farming. You surely know this but choose to ignore it. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Sister Ray wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
If I had to choose between a captive bolt gun and then getting my throat slit or being disemboweled by a bear and having my insides or leg eaten as I slowly bleed out and linger on, I'd take the factory method. |
The bolt gun is just the last few seconds of a life dominated by the cruelty and subjugation inherent in modern farming. You surely know this but choose to ignore it. |
Animal life is naturally subjugated. Unless you are the alpha of the pack, you will be a subject. Subjugation is the natural order for many animals. They don't have any concept of rights and freedoms. Again, you're engaging in anthropomorphism and assigning values to them that don't exist. In the animal's mind "You smell this way and are this big, I am either above or below you". Your view of them is religion, not science.
What might life be like in the wilderness? Disease, constant hunger, under constant threat of being attacked by predators. My animal mother might eat me before I reach day 3. Or maybe fall in a mud pit and I smell wrong and its starvation for me. Or maybe I'm constantly subject to pecking order wars or falling over a cliff as I try to migrate somewhere.
What, you think normally its a life of frolicking and fun? Are the animals sitting around singing kumbaya?
And again, that doesn't mean its okay for farmers to senselessly beat animals or any other acts, but lets not believe in things that animals aren't engaging in. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Vegetarians need to decide if they support science and man being an animal, which means as an animal it is fine for him to eat meat or reject that in favor of spirituality, which suggests that man is something more than an animal, in which case the authority you base such a view on is akin to religion or philosophy. |
That's not the only reason some folks follow a vegetarian diet. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:11 am Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Vegetarians need to decide if they support science and man being an animal, which means as an animal it is fine for him to eat meat or reject that in favor of spirituality, which suggests that man is something more than an animal, in which case the authority you base such a view on is akin to religion or philosophy. |
That's not the only reason some folks follow a vegetarian diet. |
I agree, and I wrote it poorly. I should have more emphasized that I was talking about the extreme PETA crusader types (not all PETA people are bad, there's a wide spectrum out there) as opposed to sustainability folks, dietary folks, people who just don't like meat, people who don't like the idea of killing animals but aren't ascribing any anthropomorphic qualities to them, and many other vegetarians of various stripes. |
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Chaparrastique
Joined: 01 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:24 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Subjugation is the natural order for many animals. |
You view nature as a hierarchy? And being at the top entitles you to be cruel to what is "below"? Including other people you might perceive as beneath you? How very Korean. Such an attitude does not produce a happy nor sustainable society or environment.
The fact is.. that one thing is not more important than the other, we are all interconnected in a web of life. If it were not for phytoplankton, the food chain of the oceans would unravel and crash, we would have no more seafood to eat. Is a phytoplankton then less important than a tiger in the scheme of things? no. Just different. It has a different role.
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| They don't have any concept of rights and freedoms. |
You claim to know and understand animals? And having abruptly mis-defined them, you then go on to act on your misperceptions- which have allowed you to disconnect from animals?
Animals have as much right to exist as you do.
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| Your view of them is religion, not science. |
Both science and religion (the two should not be in conflict) affirm the interconnectedness of all life. If you want to disconnect and devalue one part of the creation/ ecosystem, then from that moment on you harm them and yourself.
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| And again, that doesn't mean its okay for farmers to senselessly beat animals or any other acts, but lets not believe in things that animals aren't engaging in. |
You seem to be confusing the necessary flow of energy through the food chain with arbitrary and uneccesary human cruelty. A hawk does not kill a mouse out of cruelty, but necessity. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:44 am Post subject: |
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| Chaparrastique wrote: |
| A hawk does not kill a mouse out of cruelty, but necessity. |
Cats and dogs will kill mice for sport.
Dogs often kill things that they chase with no intentions of eating it.
Cats seem particularly cruel in the way they play with their 'game' before they eat it...if they eat it.
While I agree that humans are often wickedly cruel to each other and other animals, animals are hardly a beacon of light in the kindness to others department.
Humans seem particularly good at kindness, when it suits them. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:08 am Post subject: |
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| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| Chaparrastique wrote: |
| A hawk does not kill a mouse out of cruelty, but necessity. |
Cats and dogs will kill mice for sport.
Dogs often kill things that they chase with no intentions of eating it.
Cats seem particularly cruel in the way they play with their 'game' before they eat it...if they eat it.
While I agree that humans are often wickedly cruel to each other and other animals, animals are hardly a beacon of light in the kindness to others department.
Humans seem particularly good at kindness, when it suits them. |
To judge animals as if they were humans is IMO a mistake. Hunting and chasing are instinctual to cats. As to why they play with their prey, there are many theories including they want to make sure the prey is actually dead. |
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drydell
Joined: 01 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:30 am Post subject: |
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1. Animals are not cruel you twits.. It's a human construction- they cannot be held to account for following nature's programming..
2. They can't be moral agents like humans but they can be moral subjects like young humans and some severely disabled people.
3. You wouldn't think so from most nature documentaries but the vast majority of prey animals never encounter predator animals in the wild and live out their lives..
4. A significant number of animals going through the slaughter process in the west are conscious when they are dismembered and skinned because the stun/kill is not 100% effective..
5. Not bothered by the way dogs are sometimes killed here and still try the dog meat?.. Ok well It's up to you if you want to be a decent human being or not.. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:42 am Post subject: |
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| Chaparrastique wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Subjugation is the natural order for many animals. |
You view nature as a hierarchy? And being at the top entitles you to be cruel to what is "below"? Including other people you might perceive as beneath you? How very Korean. Such an attitude does not produce a happy nor sustainable society or environment.
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You clearly didn't understand what I was talking about. I was observing the fact that within animal societies themselves, there are often dominant or 'alpha' members who enforce their order upon the rest of whatever social unit the animals comprise, often through brute force. Subjugation is not some sort of foreign concept. It is part of their character.
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| Animals have as much right to exist as you do. |
Rights are a human construct. There exists no such concept in nature. You can either say animals are part of nature (and so is man) and to follow science and this and that OR you can say that man has certain moral obligations and ideas such as ethics and morals. In which case you are moving from science into philosophy or religion. In which case, I will regard your opinion as such. A deeply held philosophy and your personal opinion, but please stop talking as though this is based on firm scientifically reasoned truth.
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Both science and religion (the two should not be in conflict) affirm the interconnectedness of all life. If you want to disconnect and devalue one part of the creation/ ecosystem, then from that moment on you harm them and yourself.
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A hybrid theory is fine as well, but let's be clear- you are basing part of your stance on religion. Your argument is in part based upon this faith. I have no problem with that as long as you openly acknowledge it when making your arguments regarding animal treatment and cruelty.
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| You seem to be confusing the necessary flow of energy through the food chain with arbitrary and uneccesary human cruelty. A hawk does not kill a mouse out of cruelty, but necessity. |
Dolphins kill out of cruelty. Heck, some animals will kill weaker and non threatening animals because they "stray into their territory" and won't even bother to eat the thing. Two bulls might kill each other over mating with a cow. In theory both could mate with her. Is this necessary? Their instinct declares it so.
| drydell wrote: |
| 1. Animals are not cruel you twits.. It's a human construction- they cannot be held to account for following nature's programming.. |
And aren't humans animals? Aren't they subject to their natural programming as well?
Here's the thing, we can either declare animals capable of "caring and kindness" and ascribe all these wonderful qualities to them like Chaparrastique said with "Dogs feel pain just like people, they nurture their young and show much love and intelligence toward their owners as well as their own." and then turn around and say that they can't be held accountable for nature's programming and they aren't cruel.
If dogs can be loving, they can be cruel OR they don't love at all and they don't practice cruelty, they only practice nature. But it is all one thing or all the other.
That's my point- consistency. Either you are following science or you are making a philosophical-religious argument. Either you anthropomorphisize these creatures or you don't. Either man is an animal from nature or it isn't. And if you are going to make a hybrid argument, then understand that it rests on shaky logical ground.
But I have zero patience for someone telling me that dog's experience love and show compassion and then saying "that's just nature" when they kill something for no good reason and then denounce human beings for eating meat while trumpeting evolution and science while dismissing religion. How can you say man is just another primate and then declare that eating meat is wrong?
Just come out and say it- "I think animals have souls". Or at least enough of what makes a soul a soul for us to not eat them.
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| 3. You wouldn't think so from most nature documentaries but the vast majority of prey animals never encounter predator animals in the wild and live out their lives.. |
Disease. Mortality rates seem fairly high in some species. But yeah, probably many just live normal lives and die in winter one year or another.
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| 4. A significant number of animals going through the slaughter process in the west are conscious when they are dismembered and skinned because the stun/kill is not 100% effective.. |
Well I think instead of this captive bolt nonsense they should just blow the things head off. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:31 am Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
| To judge animals as if they were humans is IMO a mistake. Hunting and chasing are instinctual to cats. As to why they play with their prey, there are many theories including they want to make sure the prey is actually dead. |
yeah...I wasn't even suggesting that.
But certainly we, as judgmental animals, can apply the word 'cruel' to animal behavior.
That the animal itself may not have the faculty to understand that we judge such matters as 'cruel', matters not at all.
My point was counter to the use of the term 'necessity'. Animals do kill 'instinctively', but the 'necessity' part is not a valid premise.
Animals get bored and love to mess with things.
They enjoy torturing each other. Cats are especially talented at this.
Just for laughs watch some of the Youtube videos on Cat behavior.
Here is one...the first example is classic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvPNaJ8OWCM |
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Koharski
Mod Team
Joined: 20 Jul 2009
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| Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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| fezmond wrote: |
why do you bother responding to steelrails?
He's a (Mod Edit) |
Of course, Fezmond is no longer with us.
Koharski |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| To judge animals as if they were humans is IMO a mistake. Hunting and chasing are instinctual to cats. As to why they play with their prey, there are many theories including they want to make sure the prey is actually dead. |
yeah...I wasn't even suggesting that.
But certainly we, as judgmental animals, can apply the word 'cruel' to animal behavior.
That the animal itself may not have the faculty to understand that we judge such matters as 'cruel', matters not at all.
My point was counter to the use of the term 'necessity'. Animals do kill 'instinctively', but the 'necessity' part is not a valid premise.
Animals get bored and love to mess with things.
They enjoy torturing each other. Cats are especially talented at this.
Just for laughs watch some of the Youtube videos on Cat behavior.
Here is one...the first example is classic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvPNaJ8OWCM |
Just because you can apply something doesn't make it true.
Your rationale is mere sophistry.
Weren't you one of the posters call for facts? Yet your post is nothing but opinion. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:38 am Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
Just because you can apply something doesn't make it true. |
Actually, it does. Otherwise you couldn't logically apply it...yes? We are attempting to have a rational discussion..yes? I'm asking because that is not yet a given.
| atwood wrote: |
Your rationale is mere sophistry. |
Not in the slightest way. Do you care to explain how?
| atwood wrote: |
Weren't you one of the posters call for facts? Yet your post is nothing but opinion. |
Facts about what? Not sure what you are on about here. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:52 am Post subject: |
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| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
Just because you can apply something doesn't make it true. |
Actually, it does. Otherwise you couldn't logically apply it...yes? We are attempting to have a rational discussion..yes? I'm asking because that is not yet a given.
| atwood wrote: |
Your rationale is mere sophistry. |
Not in the slightest way. Do you care to explain how?
| atwood wrote: |
Weren't you one of the posters call for facts? Yet your post is nothing but opinion. |
Facts about what? Not sure what you are on about here. |
You cannot rationally apply human notions, as you are attempting to do, to explain animal behavior. That's sophistry.
Facts regarding animal behavior, not opinions derived from limited observation. |
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SHGator428
Joined: 05 Sep 2014
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| Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:54 am Post subject: |
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| Do locals still eat dogs or not? If so, then do they still hang and beat them alive prior to consuming them? |
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