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Seoul Bus and Subway Fares Going Up
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jazzmaster

Joined: 30 Sep 2013

Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:23 pm Post subject:

World Traveler wrote:

jazzmaster wrote:

We're not discussing anything. I was replying to Jvalmer. I discussed nothing with you.

Hey man, it's a group discussion board.

You made a (false/specious) statement. I refuted it. That is all.

"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

My statement wasn't false or specious.

My statement was "Real wage growth averages less than 1 percent a year over the past decade even as the economy averaged brisk 3.7 percent growth after adjusting for inflation."

That is a fact. Overall wages have grown.

I made no mention of NET wages. I was taking about wages overall, not specific professions.

NET wages may be declining in real terms but the average wage has been growing. Both can be true at the same time. NET wages are the anomaly. As a NET it upsets me that NET wages are the anomaly but my emotions do not change the fact that in South Korea overall wages have been increasing at less that 1 percent a year over the past decade.

World Traveler

Joined: 29 May 2009

Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:07 pm Post subject:

jazzmaster wrote:

As a NET it upsets me that NET wages are the anomaly but my emotions do not change the fact that in South Korea overall wages have been increasing at less that 1 percent a year over the past decade.

See that's not true though. Overall wages in Korea for Koreans have been increasing by much more than one percent a year. Adjusted for inflation they are still growing which means they are going up higher than the cost of living. So to summarize, taking into account cost of living increases, wages for Koreans are are going up while wages for NETs are going down.

(Some economic terms to look up: "real" and "nominal".)

jvalmer

Joined: 06 Jun 2003

Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:15 pm Post subject:

jazzmaster wrote:

Depends how you define similar. Have real wages and the economy both been increasing? Yes. But the economy has been increasing at almost 4 times the rate of wages in the last decade. Similar is not a word I would use in this case.

The rates maybe different, but the lines are going to look the same in most cases.

Not saying it's a good, or bad thing. And I know wages have not kept up to the economy. I'm just saying that the math, or stats, show trends that look similar. Take the numbers out, pro-capitalists will say it's great. Put the numbers in, the other-side will say things are getting worse.

World Traveler

Joined: 29 May 2009

Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:39 pm Post subject:

jvalmer wrote:

I know wages have not kept up to the economy.

Or...another explanation for why wages aren't rising as fast as per capita GDP:

The long falling birthrate.

Less kids around to pull down the per capita GDP.

Situations are complex, man. Way too many people think they understand the situation perfectly after reading one stat when in fact they don't.

jazzmaster

Joined: 30 Sep 2013

Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:43 pm Post subject:

World Traveler wrote:

jazzmaster wrote:

As a NET it upsets me that NET wages are the anomaly but my emotions do not change the fact that in South Korea overall wages have been increasing at less that 1 percent a year over the past decade.

I get it now. You're clearly a troll. Nobody could honestly be this dense or needlessly argumentative.

I already stated that "Real wage (aka wages that have been adjusted for inflation) growth averages less than 1 percent a year over the past decade".

You seem to be attempting to draw focus away from the fact that my comment, which you falsely claimed was false, was true.

jazzmaster

Joined: 30 Sep 2013

Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:49 pm Post subject:

jvalmer wrote:

jazzmaster wrote:

As a socialist I'd say that things are getting worse and the closer you examine the figures the more obvious that becomes, but I see your point that a pro-capitalist could say that both wages and GDP are increasing so things are still going well.

Overall I see what you're getting at, but the "Don't get angry because the industry you a have chosen to work in hasn't followed it" seemed needlessly condescending.

Smithington

Joined: 14 Dec 2011

Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:15 pm Post subject:

Fare are going up by eleven cents and...this deserves a thread?

jvalmer

Joined: 06 Jun 2003

Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:24 pm Post subject:

jazzmaster wrote:

Overall I see what you're getting at, but the "Don't get angry because the industry you a have chosen to work in hasn't followed it" seemed needlessly condescending.

I do apologize for that. Had a bad day.

World Traveler

Joined: 29 May 2009

Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:28 pm Post subject:

jazzmaster wrote:

I already stated that "Real wage (aka wages that have been adjusted for inflation) growth averages less than 1 percent a year over the past decade".

So if they are going up (that is, outpacing inflation) what's the problem? That's a good thing.

Not sure why you would write that, followed by this:

jazzmaster wrote:

Seems we're not alone, so I expect you'll be expressing the same "Don't get angry" sentiments to all your Korean friends and family, in the same condescending terms, regarding their frustration at prices being raised.

Here's a very common scenario:

A: "Salaries for NETs are stagnating if not declining."

B: "So what? Salaries for Koreans are stagnating too and salaries in the West are stagnating as well."

See the flaw in logic in this one? Person B read about stagnating salaries in the West in and Korea but didn't realize this was after adjusting for inflation. (When one figure is adjusted for inflation while the other is not, it's not an apt comparison.)

jazzmaster

Joined: 30 Sep 2013

Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:28 pm Post subject:

World Traveler wrote:

jazzmaster wrote:

I already stated that "Real wage (aka wages that have been adjusted for inflation) growth averages less than 1 percent a year over the past decade".

So if they are going up (that is, outpacing inflation) what's the problem? That's a good thing.

Not sure why you would write that, followed by this:

jazzmaster wrote:

I've just dealt with this. I was replying to Jvalmer and the part of his post that in my opinion was condescending. I was highlighting that many peoples wages have been seeing minimal real growth and that should Koreans complain would he be as condescending to them.

That's why my initial reply was "I'm not replying to you. I was replying to JValmer".

Then you started ranting about NET wages, which I had not mentioned up to that point. To which I replied "We're not discussing anything. I was replying to Jvalmer. I discussed nothing with you".

You then claimed my statement was false and I proved that it was true.

Now you appear to have spat the dummy and started ranting in an argumentative fashion.

Jvalmer and I have discussed the matter I initially wanted to address, and thanks to his honest reply I have a lot more time for him. I understand what it's like to have a bad day. Therefore having dealt with the matter that brought me here it seems foolish to engage with yourself when you are clearly a troll looking for an argument.

Bongotruck

Joined: 19 Mar 2015

Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:20 am Post subject:

200-300 won, so 19-29 cents. A 20-30% increase. It is going to hurt a lot of low income people.

Smithington wrote:

Fare are going up by eleven cents and...this deserves a thread?

Sister Ray

Joined: 25 Mar 2006
Location: Fukuoka

Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 4:49 am Post subject:

Bongotruck wrote:

200-300 won, so 19-29 cents. A 20-30% increase. It is going to hurt a lot of low income people.

Maybe. But, the Seoul subway is still an absolute bargain. The minimum fare on the subway here is ¥250.

Captain Corea

Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 2:05 pm Post subject:

I spend between 100-120,000 per month. I use it tons. While still cheap, that's quite the bump.

Bongotruck

Joined: 19 Mar 2015

Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 7:48 pm Post subject:

I would gladly pay that if the increase meant that more people would be out there to kick off bible thumpers, enforce bicycle rules, kick off peddlers, and deal with other annoyances. Being crowded can't be helped. Some things can be.

Yaya

Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Location: Seoul

Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 9:00 pm Post subject:

Captain Corea wrote:

I spend between 100-120,000 per month. I use it tons. While still cheap, that's quite the bump.

Imagine if you drove every month. Let's see, parking fees, maintenance, gas, danger of accidents and vandalism...

I'm perfectly happy NOT having a car.

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