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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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 Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:43 am Post subject: |
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| sligo wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| sligo wrote: |
I wonder how many of the people who are still actively protesting about the Seowol take safety in other aspects of life seriously. How many stop at red lights? wear seatbelts? Stop at non-light controlled crossings for people to cross (as the law says they should).
Hyprocrites!
How many fit car seat for children? (Rather than hold babies in their arms while sitting in a passenger or even driver's seat, or let children stand in the back). I wonder how many insist that the kindergarten fit car seats to minibusses? Or, as i saw a few weeks ago, 10 children piling into a 4x4 with a kindergarten logo on the side and be driven home. Well, minibusses are expensive, and if it crashed, no-one could possibly wear a seatbelt, but the squash would mean that at least 1 child would survive.
Until Korea focusses on prevention rather than cure, this will happen again. |
And the people who criticize them for not being absolutely perfect in every safety practice they engage in and instantly changing are hypocrites themselves if they do anything potentially dangerous, which they almost certainly do to some degree. I'm pretty sure some extreme safety nut could go through your apartment or hang you with you for a day and find some things you do that are wrong.
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I'm sure they could, and while i consider my lifestyle safe, i'm sure I as an individual may have overlooked 1 or 2 things. But, as I mentioned, i am 1 person, indicative of only my lifestyle. This is where you argument falls flat. My post was based on observations of everday occurances by hundreds of individuals. I'm sure others members of tis site will attest to this behaviour happening in other cities. This makes it a societal problem, whereas my apartment is a personal issue.
Korea has the highest PEDESTRIAN death rate of any developed country. This isn't drivers dying, this is people walking on the pavement, a place that should be safe. the rate is twice the second worse country.
http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20130523000539
Korea supposedly banned motorvehicles on pavements, but time is money and delivery drivers fly about regardless of civillians trying to walk there. Korean law states all motorcyclists must wear a helmet, but how often do you see that, especially when there is a ppassenger riiding pillion.
I remmeber when i first came here 8 years ago, all taxis hid the seatbelt as they felt they were untidy. When asked about seatbelts, the drivers took it as an insult, as if their drivin skills were being attacked. They didn't seem to realise that even safe drivers are hit by drunken or careless idiots. When you could find the seatbelt, they were often (and some still are) unusuable due to plastic jammed in the clasp.
And then there are TVs in cars, how many drivers have to break late because they were watching the 9th innings of the baseball rather than the bloody road in front. Heaven forbid they may miss a homerun.
It seems Koreans only believe in following the rules when they are being observed; how many stilll smoke in bathroom and busstops where there are clear no smoking signs. They only care about safety when there is either an accident, or they are being watched (police road patrols). Rules never seem to matter
Steelrails, why do you insist on defending the indefensible? Did Lee Myun Bak, and Park Geun Hye entrust the saftey of the good name of Korea in your hands, and asked you to defend against all foes, foreign and domestic? Korea has some amazing aspects, but anyone who tries to defend safety here is away with the faries!
Koreans know about safety, they build cars to international safety standards for export, and those same features are used on Korean cars. Every car has seatbelts, because they are proven to help in accidents, but very few use them.
If Korea wants to sit at the top table, then they have to follow the rules! |
First off, thanks for writing a reply that didn't compare an NFL team to an entire country when talking about culture.
As far as personal vs. societal, I would say that a society is a collection of individuals making individual choices. Since any grouping of people would have various unsafe practices that they persist in, would it be fair to say "they don't care about safety?" I wouldn't. Even if you had those things or decided to jaywalk on some random street or had a random brain spazz on the road and made an error, I wouldn't consider you or your culture unsafe. Everyone makes mistakes and the act of making a mistake does not mean that you don't care. Also, "Koreans" aren't a unified group of people, they DO have different ideas about things. They don't unanimously agree on everything. Now obviously that doesn't mean that things can't be improved. But I think linking a person jaywalking and their call for increased safety measures, especially regarding ferries, doesn't make them a hypocrite. If they were taking bribes to sign off on unsafe automobiles, yes.
Anyways, I'm not "defending" or "excusing", I'm only asking that people hold Korea and Koreans to the same standard that they would have themselves and their home countries held to. I'm also hoping that people will understand that change on this level, with this broad of an issue, does not happen as rapidly as people are hoping for anywhere. That's why I bring up the health-McDonald's issue. As I said, saying Koreans don't care about safety and have done nothing to change because of some random people someone saw, makes as munch sense as saying Americans don't care about health because I see a line of cars at the McDonald's drive through.
Also, I do take this stance on other issues. For example, gun laws and America. You'll get some people coming on here and wondering why Americans don't just get rid of all the guns and can't fathom why they persist in America, despite so much crime. I patiently try to explain to them the unique nature of America's gun laws and how because of the U.S. Constitution, they are strongly tied to other basic fundamental protections and banning them would open up a massive can of worms. This isn't saying gun violence isn't a problem, it's saying that the issue isn't as easily solvable as some may think it is. Some may think you can just willy-nilly change the constitution of a country to suit some momentary issue, what they fail to recognize is that that sort of thing tends to happen in banana republics where El Presidente can just cross things out and write new laws as he sees fit.
Improvements can be made and there are some good ideas out there, some of which Koreans are looking at adopting. But these things take time and have to follow legal procedure in becoming implemented. People's behaviors generally don't change overnight, and were they to do so, say involving some sort of strict crackdown, you'd probably get the same people on here complaining about getting handed a bunch of fines and "powertripping police". Anyways, there are some measures out there. I've listed some that I think might have a semi-realistic shot of being achieved, and I'm sure there are others.
| atwood wrote: |
| As my OP stated, it's been one year and NOTHING has changed. |
Really? Are you aware that a bunch of new traffic fines and regulations are becoming active this month? Has there been no action in regards to ferry inspection and safety procedures? Are you saying that there has been no change in Korean safety practices since 5, 10, or 15 years ago?
| Quote: |
| So up the inspections, fire and jail any corrupt inspectors, make company owners and CEOs liable, stop all government funding and contracts to those in non-compliance etc. |
Those inspections have to be done by qualified people, which means you are going to have to hire new ones, which means they have to be trained. This takes time. You then have to overcome the government's lack of ability to drop 25k in an envelope in someone's lap. How will you achieve that? Perhaps body cameras on all inspectors. Maybe live-stream it. But doesn't that raise privacy concerns? What about with technology sensitive machinery?
Hold company owners and CEOs liable? For what? If some construction work takes a belt of soju on the job, are you going to fire the CEO over that? Are you going to cut off funding to Doosan simply because one construction team is filled with screwballs? Don't you have to write laws for this? Doesn't that take time? Don't you have to earmark funding?
| Quote: |
| Hire more police and as is done with customs inspectors give bonuses based on how many tickets they write. |
And trade the problem of unsafe cars for one of a 10000 members of a shakedown racket and a government badge.
If you are going to compare me to a member of the Nazi party...  ... then I'd compare you to Robespierre or L. Paul Bremer or some other yahoo from history who doesn't know the difference between fantasy ruling and actual governance. Or maybe the Cersei Lannister-Daenerys Targaryen school of realizing sitting in the big chair is not as easy as it seems. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:52 am Post subject: |
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| Underwaterbob wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| Underwaterbob wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| The number 50 million looks big but consider that those 50 million are a homogeneous group that are in all likelihood more alike than the 53 football players and thus in many ways easier to lead. And they are also used to less freedom, which makes them more malleable. |
Wow, just wow... |
It's good to see someone so admiring of simple logic.
Thanks for the compliment, as inarticulate as it may be. |
Your "logic" tells you that an entire country of 50 million people are less diverse than a group of 53 men mostly between the ages of 25 and 35 who have spent the majority of their lives practicing and playing the same sport, often together.
Not only do you not understand logic, you seem to have some trouble with sarcasm too. |
You don't seem to understand SK. It's a homogeneous society.
The 49ers have players from all over the U.S., towns and cities big and small, universities big and small, different ethnicities, poor, middle class, well to do, different nationalities, and more.
As for time together, a Korean salaryperson would spend much, much more time with his colleagues than a pro football player and all his free time mostly with just his family.
Diverse--no.
BTW, bob, I think you're the one who missed the sarcasm. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:05 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| sligo wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| sligo wrote: |
I wonder how many of the people who are still actively protesting about the Seowol take safety in other aspects of life seriously. How many stop at red lights? wear seatbelts? Stop at non-light controlled crossings for people to cross (as the law says they should).
Hyprocrites!
How many fit car seat for children? (Rather than hold babies in their arms while sitting in a passenger or even driver's seat, or let children stand in the back). I wonder how many insist that the kindergarten fit car seats to minibusses? Or, as i saw a few weeks ago, 10 children piling into a 4x4 with a kindergarten logo on the side and be driven home. Well, minibusses are expensive, and if it crashed, no-one could possibly wear a seatbelt, but the squash would mean that at least 1 child would survive.
Until Korea focusses on prevention rather than cure, this will happen again. |
And the people who criticize them for not being absolutely perfect in every safety practice they engage in and instantly changing are hypocrites themselves if they do anything potentially dangerous, which they almost certainly do to some degree. I'm pretty sure some extreme safety nut could go through your apartment or hang you with you for a day and find some things you do that are wrong.
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I'm sure they could, and while i consider my lifestyle safe, i'm sure I as an individual may have overlooked 1 or 2 things. But, as I mentioned, i am 1 person, indicative of only my lifestyle. This is where you argument falls flat. My post was based on observations of everday occurances by hundreds of individuals. I'm sure others members of tis site will attest to this behaviour happening in other cities. This makes it a societal problem, whereas my apartment is a personal issue.
Korea has the highest PEDESTRIAN death rate of any developed country. This isn't drivers dying, this is people walking on the pavement, a place that should be safe. the rate is twice the second worse country.
http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20130523000539
Korea supposedly banned motorvehicles on pavements, but time is money and delivery drivers fly about regardless of civillians trying to walk there. Korean law states all motorcyclists must wear a helmet, but how often do you see that, especially when there is a ppassenger riiding pillion.
I remmeber when i first came here 8 years ago, all taxis hid the seatbelt as they felt they were untidy. When asked about seatbelts, the drivers took it as an insult, as if their drivin skills were being attacked. They didn't seem to realise that even safe drivers are hit by drunken or careless idiots. When you could find the seatbelt, they were often (and some still are) unusuable due to plastic jammed in the clasp.
And then there are TVs in cars, how many drivers have to break late because they were watching the 9th innings of the baseball rather than the bloody road in front. Heaven forbid they may miss a homerun.
It seems Koreans only believe in following the rules when they are being observed; how many stilll smoke in bathroom and busstops where there are clear no smoking signs. They only care about safety when there is either an accident, or they are being watched (police road patrols). Rules never seem to matter
Steelrails, why do you insist on defending the indefensible? Did Lee Myun Bak, and Park Geun Hye entrust the saftey of the good name of Korea in your hands, and asked you to defend against all foes, foreign and domestic? Korea has some amazing aspects, but anyone who tries to defend safety here is away with the faries!
Koreans know about safety, they build cars to international safety standards for export, and those same features are used on Korean cars. Every car has seatbelts, because they are proven to help in accidents, but very few use them.
If Korea wants to sit at the top table, then they have to follow the rules! |
First off, thanks for writing a reply that didn't compare an NFL team to an entire country when talking about culture.
As far as personal vs. societal, I would say that a society is a collection of individuals making individual choices. Since any grouping of people would have various unsafe practices that they persist in, would it be fair to say "they don't care about safety?" I wouldn't. Even if you had those things or decided to jaywalk on some random street or had a random brain spazz on the road and made an error, I wouldn't consider you or your culture unsafe. Everyone makes mistakes and the act of making a mistake does not mean that you don't care. Also, "Koreans" aren't a unified group of people, they DO have different ideas about things. They don't unanimously agree on everything. Now obviously that doesn't mean that things can't be improved. But I think linking a person jaywalking and their call for increased safety measures, especially regarding ferries, doesn't make them a hypocrite. If they were taking bribes to sign off on unsafe automobiles, yes.
Anyways, I'm not "defending" or "excusing", I'm only asking that people hold Korea and Koreans to the same standard that they would have themselves and their home countries held to. I'm also hoping that people will understand that change on this level, with this broad of an issue, does not happen as rapidly as people are hoping for anywhere. That's why I bring up the health-McDonald's issue. As I said, saying Koreans don't care about safety and have done nothing to change because of some random people someone saw, makes as munch sense as saying Americans don't care about health because I see a line of cars at the McDonald's drive through.
Also, I do take this stance on other issues. For example, gun laws and America. You'll get some people coming on here and wondering why Americans don't just get rid of all the guns and can't fathom why they persist in America, despite so much crime. I patiently try to explain to them the unique nature of America's gun laws and how because of the U.S. Constitution, they are strongly tied to other basic fundamental protections and banning them would open up a massive can of worms. This isn't saying gun violence isn't a problem, it's saying that the issue isn't as easily solvable as some may think it is. Some may think you can just willy-nilly change the constitution of a country to suit some momentary issue, what they fail to recognize is that that sort of thing tends to happen in banana republics where El Presidente can just cross things out and write new laws as he sees fit.
Improvements can be made and there are some good ideas out there, some of which Koreans are looking at adopting. But these things take time and have to follow legal procedure in becoming implemented. People's behaviors generally don't change overnight, and were they to do so, say involving some sort of strict crackdown, you'd probably get the same people on here complaining about getting handed a bunch of fines and "powertripping police". Anyways, there are some measures out there. I've listed some that I think might have a semi-realistic shot of being achieved, and I'm sure there are others.
| atwood wrote: |
| As my OP stated, it's been one year and NOTHING has changed. |
Really? Are you aware that a bunch of new traffic fines and regulations are becoming active this month? Has there been no action in regards to ferry inspection and safety procedures? Are you saying that there has been no change in Korean safety practices since 5, 10, or 15 years ago?
| Quote: |
| So up the inspections, fire and jail any corrupt inspectors, make company owners and CEOs liable, stop all government funding and contracts to those in non-compliance etc. |
Those inspections have to be done by qualified people, which means you are going to have to hire new ones, which means they have to be trained. This takes time. You then have to overcome the government's lack of ability to drop 25k in an envelope in someone's lap. How will you achieve that? Perhaps body cameras on all inspectors. Maybe live-stream it. But doesn't that raise privacy concerns? What about with technology sensitive machinery?
Hold company owners and CEOs liable? For what? If some construction work takes a belt of soju on the job, are you going to fire the CEO over that? Are you going to cut off funding to Doosan simply because one construction team is filled with screwballs? Don't you have to write laws for this? Doesn't that take time? Don't you have to earmark funding?
| Quote: |
| Hire more police and as is done with customs inspectors give bonuses based on how many tickets they write. |
And trade the problem of unsafe cars for one of a 10000 members of a shakedown racket and a government badge.
If you are going to compare me to a member of the Nazi party... ... then I'd compare you to Robespierre or L. Paul Bremer or some other yahoo from history who doesn't know the difference between fantasy ruling and actual governance. Or maybe the Cersei Lannister-Daenerys Targaryen school of realizing sitting in the big chair is not as easy as it seems. |
"Becoming active" so not yet and thus "hasn't changed" remains correct in this regard. The jury, obviously, is still out as to whether said regulations will be vigorously enforced. Until then, nothing has changed.
As for the new shipping regulations, these are already being flouted. Two ferries are being renovated in the same manner as the Sewol, actions given the OK by the newly appointed board of supervisors. Trucks that are being weighed before getting on ferries are first unloading part of their cargo and after being weighed reloading it. Crew members still lack training.
You, as usual, don't seem to know what you're talking about.
The original post said one year, not five or ten or one hundred. But as for what's been happening safetywise over that time period I think the statistics speak for themselves, as well as the sinkholes.
Watch that first step--it's a doozy!
Game of Thrones?--Are you saying that Korea is a feudal society in which people need to be ruled with an iron hand or at least a few dragons? |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 8:50 am Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
The 49ers have players from all over the U.S., towns and cities big and small, universities big and small, different ethnicities, poor, middle class, well to do, different nationalities, and more.
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So all the towns and cities and universities are the same size, and only one class of people in Korea?  Did you even bother to think before you typed that?
Yes there is ethnicity and diversity in the NFL (although not all people in Korea are Koreans, and non-Koreans in Korea are not unsafe behavior-free). But then there is that whole age differences and THE FEMALE GENDER thing.
Let's see your dodge this blunder.
Last edited by Steelrails on Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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3DR
Joined: 24 May 2009
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| Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| Atwood needs help. |
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Underwaterbob
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito
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| Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
| You don't seem to understand SK. It's a homogeneous society. |
You don't seem to understand demographics. You're comparing 53 people to 50 million people. 53 people of one sex who are all nearly the same age and who all share the same profession.
| atwood wrote: |
| The 49ers have players from all over the U.S., towns and cities big and small, universities big and small, different ethnicities, poor, middle class, well to do, different nationalities, and more. |
Yeah, uhh...
| atwood wrote: |
| As for time together, a Korean salaryperson would spend much, much more time with his colleagues than a pro football player and all his free time mostly with just his family. |
And what percentage of Koreans are salarypersons?
| atwood wrote: |
| BTW, bob, I think you're the one who missed the sarcasm. |
More like "chose to ignore in the face of overwhelming ignorance". |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
The 49ers have players from all over the U.S., towns and cities big and small, universities big and small, different ethnicities, poor, middle class, well to do, different nationalities, and more.
. |
So all the towns and cities and universities are the same size, and only one class of people in Korea? Did you even bother to think before you typed that?
Yes there is ethnicity and diversity in the NFL (although not all people in Korea are Koreans, and non-Koreans in Korea are not unsafe behavior-free). But then there is that whole age differences and THE FEMALE GENDER thing.
Let's see your dodge this blunder. |
Take 10 Koreans, five male and five female. Ask them their interests, their favorite foods, their opinions, their hobbies, how they take a rest (sic) and there's going to be little difference. That won't hold true for the football team.
No blunder. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Underwaterbob wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| You don't seem to understand SK. It's a homogeneous society. |
You don't seem to understand demographics. You're comparing 53 people to 50 million people. 53 people of one sex who are all nearly the same age and who all share the same profession.
| atwood wrote: |
| The 49ers have players from all over the U.S., towns and cities big and small, universities big and small, different ethnicities, poor, middle class, well to do, different nationalities, and more. |
Yeah, uhh...
| atwood wrote: |
| As for time together, a Korean salaryperson would spend much, much more time with his colleagues than a pro football player and all his free time mostly with just his family. |
And what percentage of Koreans are salarypersons?
| atwood wrote: |
| BTW, bob, I think you're the one who missed the sarcasm. |
More like "chose to ignore in the face of overwhelming ignorance". |
See my response to sr.
BTW, salarypersons was just an example. The guys who work in the small businesses in my building are there 12 hours a day most days.
You seem to be ignoring life in Korea all because you are hung up on a number. |
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Underwaterbob
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito
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| Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
| Take 10 Koreans... |
Just, I don't even, what?!?!
You do realize there are significantly more than ten Koreans in Korea?!?!?
Your comparison wasn't "ten Koreans and an NFL team" it was Korea and an NFL team. That, and if you let me choose them not randomly, I'll easily put together ten Koreans more diverse than an NFL team. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Underwaterbob wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| Take 10 Koreans... |
Just, I don't even, what?!?!
You do realize there are significantly more than ten Koreans in Korea?!?!?
Your comparison wasn't "ten Koreans and an NFL team" it was Korea and an NFL team. That, and if you let me choose them not randomly, I'll easily put together ten Koreans more diverse than an NFL team. |
You don't seem to be able to understand, bob.
Choose ten Koreans at random. Survey them on the matters I listed. Their answers will be more alike than that of 10 American football players chosen at random.
Fundamentally, they will exhibit more uniformity and less diversity.
bob, are you for making Korea a safer place or are you just looking for reasons why Korea can't be a safer place? Are you inherently resistant to change or just feel like it's too much work? Or do you believe Koreans can't change?
People are dying, bob, and you're fixated on a number. Doesn't that seem a bit silly to you? |
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Underwaterbob
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito
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| Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
You don't seem to be able to understand, bob.
Choose ten Koreans at random. Survey them on the matters I listed. Their answers will be more alike than that of 10 American football players chosen at random.
Fundamentally, they will exhibit more uniformity and less diversity. |
How can you say that with any certainty? On one hand, you're choosing from 50 million people who include everybody from a born-into-a-poor family hermaphroditic autistic infant to a gender confused one-legged centenarian who collects cardboard in a trolley for a living each who are completely unaware of the other's existence. On the other, you're choosing from 53, healthy males between the ages of 25 and 35 who are all professional athletes playing the same sport who practically live together for months at a time during training.
In any case, your comparison wasn't ten random Koreans and ten random NFL players to begin with. You said that leading 50 million Koreans should be easier than leading 53 NFL players because Koreans were less diverse - a clearly insane (or blind as the case may be) notion.
Try to get 53 people to agree on pizza toppings. Now try to get 50 million to do the same.
| atwood wrote: |
| bob, are you for making Korea a safer place or are you just looking for reasons why Korea can't be a safer place? Are you inherently resistant to change or just feel like it's too much work? Or do you believe Koreans can't change? |
Hello loaded questions! I think if you'll look up my post earlier in the thread before you derailed with this inane comparison you'll find your answer.
| atwood wrote: |
| People are dying, bob, and you're fixated on a number. Doesn't that seem a bit silly to you? |
How trite. You're the one that brought up this stupendously ignorant comparison you continue to insist is somehow valid and now I'm the one that's silly because "people are dying". |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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atwood, stop moving the goalposts. Your comparison was 1 NFL team to 50 million Koreans.
You do realize that if an NFL player openly disagrees with his coach and publicly voices his opinion, he will be booted/traded off the team, right? The team possesses a pretty unified command and decision making structure. Meanwhile the nation of Korea is a representative democracy. A head coach can walk into the locker room and say "Alright everyone this is what we're going to be doing". The president of Korea, like every other president, has to persuade lawmakers and make sure there are enough votes. Each of those lawmakers has free will to decide whether or not to go with what the president decides and each has constituents which they are responsive to. You can't tell assembly members "Do what I say or I'll fire you".
As far as diversity goes, the fact that you can't appreciate the diversity of views of an 8 year old, an 80 year old and MEN VS. WOMEN is staggering. Not to mention the whole fact that everyone on the team is making at least $450,000 a year.
You could have made a case without such a stupid example. Reset and try again. |
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Smithington
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| You could have made a case without such a stupid example. |
What was Atwood thinking using an NFL team as a comparison. SR would never do that. He demands his sports analogies have football hooligans. Football hooligans, I tell ya. You know the ones that keep Britons locked in their homes day and night? Therefore we have no right to complain about Korean driving culture, or littering, or spitting. Atwood's an amateur.
Steelrails is, and always will be, the king of absurd analogies. Let's remember that as he relishes poking Atty for his (admittedly ill-advised) analogy. Within a day, however, SR will be throwing out some bizarre comparisons of his own. And when called on them he won't admit to their absurdity, but will spend ten pages trying to defend it until people just drift off to another thread. It's happened a hundred times. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Underwaterbob wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
You don't seem to be able to understand, bob.
Choose ten Koreans at random. Survey them on the matters I listed. Their answers will be more alike than that of 10 American football players chosen at random.
Fundamentally, they will exhibit more uniformity and less diversity. |
How can you say that with any certainty? On one hand, you're choosing from 50 million people who include everybody from a born-into-a-poor family hermaphroditic autistic infant to a gender confused one-legged centenarian who collects cardboard in a trolley for a living each who are completely unaware of the other's existence. On the other, you're choosing from 53, healthy males between the ages of 25 and 35 who are all professional athletes playing the same sport who practically live together for months at a time during training.
In any case, your comparison wasn't ten random Koreans and ten random NFL players to begin with. You said that leading 50 million Koreans should be easier than leading 53 NFL players because Koreans were less diverse - a clearly insane (or blind as the case may be) notion.
Try to get 53 people to agree on pizza toppings. Now try to get 50 million to do the same.
| atwood wrote: |
| bob, are you for making Korea a safer place or are you just looking for reasons why Korea can't be a safer place? Are you inherently resistant to change or just feel like it's too much work? Or do you believe Koreans can't change? |
Hello loaded questions! I think if you'll look up my post earlier in the thread before you derailed with this inane comparison you'll find your answer.
| atwood wrote: |
| People are dying, bob, and you're fixated on a number. Doesn't that seem a bit silly to you? |
How trite. You're the one that brought up this stupendously ignorant comparison you continue to insist is somehow valid and now I'm the one that's silly because "people are dying". |
The comparison is inane only in your obviously uninformed opinion. The principles of leadership are fairly universal.
Why not answer the questions directly, bob?
You're the derailer here, kasey jones. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
atwood, stop moving the goalposts. Your comparison was 1 NFL team to 50 million Koreans.
You do realize that if an NFL player openly disagrees with his coach and publicly voices his opinion, he will be booted/traded off the team, right? The team possesses a pretty unified command and decision making structure. Meanwhile the nation of Korea is a representative democracy. A head coach can walk into the locker room and say "Alright everyone this is what we're going to be doing". The president of Korea, like every other president, has to persuade lawmakers and make sure there are enough votes. Each of those lawmakers has free will to decide whether or not to go with what the president decides and each has constituents which they are responsive to. You can't tell assembly members "Do what I say or I'll fire you".
As far as diversity goes, the fact that you can't appreciate the diversity of views of an 8 year old, an 80 year old and MEN VS. WOMEN is staggering. Not to mention the whole fact that everyone on the team is making at least $450,000 a year.
You could have made a case without such a stupid example. Reset and try again. |
Korea is a representative democracy in name only. The rule of law that a democracy needs to function well does not operate in Korea, which is still ruled by a Confucian mindset.
As for player discipline, in the case of traffic safety, traffic fines, suspended licenses, and jail time would serve the same purposes. You want to drive, follow the rules. If not, you can't drive.
As for legislators there's ways to get their votes. In Korea, it's the white envelopes.
Always thinking about why things won't work, rather than how they can be make to work, is what holds Korea back. Why are you so against progress?
Funny how you were just posting how new regulations are in place and now you're posting how difficult it is to get laws passed. Which is it?
The principles of leadership are fairly universal. They just need to be implemented.
You're always on the wrong track, kasey jones. |
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