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World Traveler

Joined: 29 May 2009

Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:05 pm Post subject:

duhweecher wrote:

Yes, we're now talking get a PhD these days. With Hallyu and all the foreigners in the country now...get an MA has been replaced with get a PhD. Sort of makes sense to me considering the Fukushima effect coupled with the international attention to Korea, influx of foreigners into the country, and general view that "South Korea is the next Japan"

So after many foreigners get their PhD in linguistics/teaching English as a foreign language, what next? Where will the bar be raised after that? Constant pressure for the PhDs to crank out more and more publications in top ranked peer reviewed journals? Seems like a lot of work (for not that much compensation).

In the future: "Pssst. You have just a PhD? That's nothing. You need to be publishing all the time if you want a real job."
Confused

Yaya

Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Location: Seoul

Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:23 pm Post subject:

Are master’s degrees on their way out? Alternatives grow as enrollment fades. http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2015/04/13/are- masters-degrees-on-their-way-out-alternatives-grow-as-enrollment-fades/

Yaya

Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Location: Seoul

Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:27 pm Post subject:

duhweecher wrote:

World Traveler wrote:

duhweecher wrote:

get a Ph.D.

A few years ago: "Get an MA for a real job in Korea." God damn! (!_!) Talk about education inflation!

Or maybe just saturation. Yes, we're now talking get a PhD these days. With Hallyu and all the foreigners in the country now...get an MA has been replaced with get a PhD. Sort of makes sense to me considering the Fukushima effect coupled with the international attention to Korea, influx of foreigners into the country, and general view that "South Korea is the next Japan" as it was mentioned recently in US media (I've heard this both on the Simpsons and on Modern Family--yes, judgement me...but my viewing habits aren't the point). Not to mention that globally there are higher numbers of PhD's moving into lower level education (secondary and post secondary) these days especially at better schools and institutions. The field of education is moving toward PhD or bust these days in post-developed countries (and countries that think--most times--that they are post-developed when it comes to education, e.g. in Asia: Korea, Japan, Singapore, HK, and the like).

So I guess my whole "real job" point centers on being some place where the students and the environment/ society has a modicum of respect for your position and knowledge. But to be honest, I don't really know what I mean by "real job." Maybe I should have just said, to feel comfortable *as a teacher* working in a school that has a higher probability of respect. Oh whatever...you know what I mean.

It should be noted just how unemployed or underemployed Ph.D holders are in Korea, often teaching English part-time at a hakwon for little money. I strongly urge the OP to consider somewhere OTHER than Korea.

duhweecher

Joined: 06 Nov 2013

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 3:54 pm Post subject:

Yaya wrote:

Are master’s degrees on their way out? Alternatives grow as enrollment fades.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2015/04/13/are-
masters-degrees-on-their-way-out-alternatives-grow-as-enrollment-fades/

Can't tell honestly if you agree or disagree...did you read this article?

Anyways, yeah, a master's no longer has much meaning...in professional (or academic settings in my view). Go get your Ph.D. is my suggestion. Nothing in this article about that idea.

By the way, I didn't really say hakwon as an example of a "real job." But that's an interesting idea you mentioned. Seriously? You know many Ph.D. holders (yes, even those of Korean nationality) working at Hakwons (even part-time)? I call B.S. on that idea...but would surely be shocked and admit my rash judgement if it's true. (I don't mean Hakwons designed for Internet-based consumption or Public Officer Exams--which is far from underemployment and often a great deal more than "little money").

World Traveler

Joined: 29 May 2009

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 4:02 pm Post subject:

It sucks that a masters degree in Korea has been devalued the way a bachelors degree has been devalued. Will a PhD be devalued next? Maybe. It's an awful feeling to have to do more and more just to tread water.

duhweecher

Joined: 06 Nov 2013

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:38 pm Post subject:

World Traveler wrote:

It sucks that a masters degree in Korea has been devalued the way a bachelors degree has been devalued. Will a PhD be devalued next? Maybe. It's an awful feeling to have to do more and more just to tread water.

It seems (at least from the writing) that you're assuming this is something that is only the case in Korea--I'm honestly not sure. However, even in the USA, the master's degree has been on a fast road to devaluation to the point that many of the best universities there don't even accept folk applying for a Master's degree--turning it into the *thing* you get when you drop out of the Ph.D. road, the losers'-thank-you-for-your-participation award. (Again, I'm talking about the field of education and the notion, granted a very flimsy one, of a "real job.")

The idea that a master's means much has been on a steady decline for nearly a decade now--globally. Aside from *some* necessary certification, I don't think many in education look at a master's as worth the paper it's printed on (that is, without evidence of research publications and the like). Wink

World Traveler

Joined: 29 May 2009

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 10:12 pm Post subject:

duhweecher wrote:

The idea that a master's means much has been on a steady decline for nearly a decade now--globally.

Why is that? So many people are getting it that it is losing its value? What happens when more people do research publications? That loses its value, too?

duhweecher

Joined: 06 Nov 2013

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 3:44 am Post subject:

World Traveler wrote:

duhweecher wrote:

The idea that a master's means much has been on a steady decline for nearly a decade now--globally.

Why is that? So many people are getting it that it is losing its value? What happens when more people do research publications? That loses its value, too?

"So many people are getting it that it is losing its value?" Answer: Yes, exactly. Basic economics.

"What happens when more people do research publications? That loses its value, too?"

Well, of course if a researcher publishes something groundbreaking (and people actually notice it), then the value will be respected as such. However, the same is happening in the research world. Ever since the surge of research done by open access journals, the academic world has been fighting hard to distinguish good from lackluster work (this is nothing new). As a result, blind peer reviewed articles in highly ranked journals (based on citation counts) are more respected than one or two publications in no-named journals.

Many people and institutions are fighting against the whole # of publications as a badge of educational acumen or authenticity. However, for several years that has been the trend. People nowadays produce so much garbage that actually gets published that even research is feeling a similar effect of over-supply and drop in quality and "value" (I assume quality is what you meant by value).

This is nothing weird and is expected, in my view, in developed and post-developed countries (education and its accolades are forms of cultural capital that people rely on when hiring people...for more on that read Pierre Bourdieu's Distinction--full of generalizations but still viable proof that cultural capital matters). So, yeah...get your Ph.D. quickly because Ph.D.s are also becoming a ever-growing norm in developed/ post-developed countries.

Yaya

Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Location: Seoul

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 4:50 pm Post subject:

duhweecher wrote:

Yaya wrote:

I have no opinion on the subject and simply posted the article for information. That said, Korea is often a bad place to have a Ph.D or such because of the competition for jobs. Lately, I've seen many job notices ask for master's or Ph.Ds yet offer a paltry salary respective to the degree wanted. I'm sure many Ph.Ds are employed but I'd think probably a lot of them are underemployed or the like.

Another drawback to advanced education is higher expectations after receiving a master's or Ph.d, which more often than not aren't met.

duhweecher

Joined: 06 Nov 2013

Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 7:17 pm Post subject:

Yaya wrote:

duhweecher wrote:

Yaya wrote:

"I have no opinion on the subject..."

Seriously? (That was funny though...)

"Korea is often a bad place to have a Ph.D or such because of the competition for job."

Yeah, if you're Korean. But I think the competition amongst non-Koreans with Ph.D. is hardly high.

"Another drawback to advanced education is higher expectations after receiving a master's or Ph.d"

Not meaning to sound rude(because you're clearly a kind poster), but is this really your reasoning for why a person should not do an advanced degree?

Yaya

Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Location: Seoul

Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 8:23 pm Post subject:

duhweecher wrote:

Yaya wrote:

duhweecher wrote:

Yaya wrote:

1. OK, so maybe I do have an opinion. Laughing

2. I'm not sure how many non-Korean Ph.D holders are in Korea but it seems they have to compete against the Korean Ph.D holders, though I could be wrong. And even if the expat Ph.D holders get tenure and such, they're usually outta there really fast.

3. I'm not against graduate education, but having a higher degree does tend to raise expectations on the job front. And no offense taken, I know you didn't mean anything.

duhweecher

Joined: 06 Nov 2013

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 2:09 pm Post subject:

Yaya wrote:

duhweecher wrote:

Yaya wrote:

duhweecher wrote:

Yaya wrote:

1. OK, so maybe I do have an opinion. Laughing

2. "... it seems they have to compete against the Korean Ph.D holders, though I could be wrong."

Sorry, but I'd have to agree that perhaps you're wrong. Not all the positions I'm referring to are in education, but even in tenured professorial positions foreign professors are competing only with themselves when it comes to tenure. Most tenure-related issues are based on own's productivity (and how much you are liked by your colleagues) when it comes to non-Korean tenure seekers in Korea. Aside from that, many non-Korean Ph.D. holders are also highly sought after in non-Education positions (where the competition is even lower).

3. I'm not against graduate education, but having a higher degree does tend to raise expectations on the job front. And no offense taken, I know you didn't mean anything.

No offense taken at all. I just thought it a strange logic because it would also justify why people don't go to college at all. If you keep a high school education, then you don't have to worry about people having high expectations.

I mean I agree that it raises expectations, but I don't think it justifies passing up better paying jobs (and yes, a Ph.D. usually does lead to getting a better paid job, if the job-seeker has any commonsense when it comes to dealing with HR folk; if the Ph.D. meant anything he or she should have tools to research job-seeking and salary negotiating tactics prior to accepting a job).

I just don't see how keeping people's expectations of oneself low leads to a better job. That's not really how it works (at all).

Yaya

Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Location: Seoul

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 4:38 pm Post subject:

2. OK, well, I stand corrected then, though I don't think I'd advise a Ph.D holder to look for work in Korea given Korean corporate "culture." 3. I guess I'm against graduate education when it's a means to avoid getting a job, entering the real world or not knowing what one wants to do in life. The money, time and effort needed to get advanced degrees, esp. the Ph.D, should make one think long and hard. I remember talking to this one Korean guy who realized after EIGHT years of pursuing a history Ph.D at an Ivy League school that he disliked the subject. He ended up not finishing it. Perhaps I'm basing my observations on what I see in Korea. I think better career counseling is a must here as so many Koreans still think of grad school without a clear plan.

ttompatz

Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:26 pm Post subject:

Yaya wrote:

Perhaps I'm basing my observations on what I see in Korea. I think better career counseling is a must here as so many Koreans still think of grad school without a clear plan.

Koreans aren't the only ones who get involved in grad school without a clear plan.

I don't know how many BA holders who have never taught a day in their life suddenly start talking about doing an MATESOL like it was some pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. (A PGCE or Professional Teaching Qualification (Dip.Ed, Dip.T, etc) would probably suit their end game better).

The problem, as I see it, is that far too many people think of doing something in grad school and then hoping it will lead to something rather than the other way around.

Decide on a path then let the path decide what qualifications you need.

In most of the better universities a real professorship (rather than guest lecturer) comes with expectations of research and publication as much or more than "teaching".

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