|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
|
 Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 10:45 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| Plain Meaning wrote: |
| I think the more important question is: why does every thread you enter turn into some manner of a nationalist pissing contest? |
And threads I don't enter, too. It's an important question? Why are there so many nationalists in the world? It's stupid to take pride in the piece of land on which one was born (be it Canada or anything else), just as it is stupid to take pride in the color of one's skin (whether it is black or any other color). I just tell things like they are, controversial or not, generally using facts and figures. I hope one day you can do the same (articulating a cogent thought on a topic of discussion), rather than just making a boring empty (not even true) ad hominem attack. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
metalhead
Joined: 18 May 2010
Location: Toilet
|
| Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 12:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
| EZE wrote: |
North American dialectologists aren't doing the hiring. They aren't the moms of Korean children either. The opinions of dialectologists, you, and me are irrelevant. The Koreans have a standard accent they're looking for and we're all measured against it whether we like it or not.
|
Yes, the 0.2% of the Korean population whose English is good enough to differentiate between English accents is doing the hiring. Speaking of which, what Korean accent is your favorite one to listen to? I'm quite fond of the Seochu twang myself, but props to the Gunsan whine too. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
EZE
Joined: 05 May 2012
|
| Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 1:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
| happyinhenan wrote: |
| If American accents are the ones in vogue and the ones that the Koreans want (not arguing about that by the way, the reasons are valid and there are lots of excellent American teachers) then how does that make those accents 'neutral'? |
I'm American and was asked to change my accent to sound like most North American English speakers. Why? Because my accent is a deviation from the neutral North American accent. My former boss wanted my accent to be neutralized.
| happyinhenan wrote: |
| The reason why Americans get hired is because they have a very distinctive accent - surely? |
If it was a very distinctive accent, Canadians wouldn't have to sew flag patches onto their belongings.
| happyinhenan wrote: |
| There is a difference between 'Koreans prefer American accented teachers' to 'Americans get hired because they don't have an accent'. |
Some people speak with regional accents. Others speak with a very neutral North American accent that makes it virtually impossible to tell which country, let alone which state or province they're from. Look at the thread about the Seth Rogen movie about North Korea. Most teachers thought he's American because he speaks with a neutral North American accent, and he doesn't sew Canadian flag patches onto his belongings. I didn't know he's Canadian until I read he is. If we can't even tell each other apart, you know Koreans can't.
| happyinhenan wrote: |
Again, most Americans can't differentiate between a Londoner and an Australian - never mind an Australian and a New Zealander.
Lots of Americans cannot differentiate between a London accent and a generic Australian accent. |
None of that matters since Americans aren't doing the hiring. Koreans can tell Londoners don't speak with a neutral North American accent. Koreans can tell Australians don't speak with a neutral North American accent. Koreans can tell New Zealanders don't speak with a neutral North American accent. And even though I actually have an extremely distinctive American accent, Koreans can tell I don't speak with a neutral North American accent. That's why you and I are lower down in the pecking order than Canadians and Americans who do speak with a neutral North American accent. I don't like it either, but it is what it is. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
happyinhenan
Joined: 01 Feb 2015
|
| Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 1:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
| EZE wrote: |
I'm American and was asked to change my accent to sound like most North American English speakers. Why? Because my accent is a deviation from the neutral North American accent. My former boss wanted my accent to be neutralized. |
Most 'North American teachers' sound the same - that is a joke, right?
Who was your boss? Obviously not anyone with a linguistics background - this is what happens when you hire poli-sci graduates and other people without a clue to teach language.
| Quote: |
| If it was a very distinctive accent, Canadians wouldn't have to sew flag patches onto their belongings. |
That - I am afraid is ignorance begetting ignorance - because someone is ignorant of the marked differences between midwest American and Canadian accents does not mean those accents haven't got differences.
| Quote: |
| Some people speak with regional accents. Others speak with a very neutral North American accent that makes it virtually impossible to tell which country, let alone which state or province they're from. |
So, if an Australian said to you - 'I don't have an accent - it is neutral' because you don't know if they are from Queensland or NSW - what would you say?
And again, everybody speaks with a regional accent, it is just your knowledge on the different accents that exist in North America is sorely lacking.
| Quote: |
| Look at the thread about the Seth Rogen movie about North Korea. Most teachers thought he was American because he speaks with a neutral North American accent, |
Most teachers - especially the American ones, have no idea.
No doubt those same teachers would have problems identifying a London accent from an Australian accent, do you know what I am saying here? They are hardly experts on this subject, along with your good self by the looks of it.
| Quote: |
| and he doesn't sew Canadian flag patches onto his belongings. I didn't know he was Canadian until I read he was. If we can't even tell each other apart, you know Koreans can't. |
No offence, because you don't know the difference with your very limited knowledge on the subject - doesn't mean there are no differences.
It would be like someone arguing that El Salvador not existing because they can't find it on a world map!
| Quote: |
| None of that matters since Americans aren't doing the hiring. |
It does because we are on this site and you haven't a clue what you are talking about.
Who is arguing about various NA accents being the premium in Korea? Not me.
It is alarming though that a lot of people earning a living teaching English do not know the basic mechanics of linguistics and accent.
And it is really alarming that people actually think they do not have an accent!
| Quote: |
| Koreans can tell Londoners don't speak with a neutral North American accent. Koreans can tell Australians don't speak with a neutral North American accent. Koreans can tell New Zealanders don't speak with a neutral North American accent. |
Any Korean (our bosses) who have some fluency can because I have worked for Korean bosses and they knew the difference between the various American accents and mine, they could tell the difference because the NA accents are distinctive and though your accent and someone from Ohio has differences - there are still more similarities than there are with mine.
| Quote: |
| And even though I actually have an extremely distinctive American accent, Koreans can tell I don't speak with a neutral North American accent. |
Bingo! We get there at last!
The 'neutral' North American accent isn't neutral because they know you don't speak it! Thank god we got there in the end! Bloody hell, what are you like?
If Koreans, know what a 'neutral' accent sounds like, try to imitate it - how can that not be distinctive?
If Koreans 'know' how it sounds, it has to be distinctive, make sense to me, must do to you, surely?
| Quote: |
| That's why you and I are lower down in the pecking order than Canadians and Americans who do speak with a neutral North American accent. I don't like it either, but it is what it is. |
I am in China!  I am on more money than all the Americans at my place because of my linguistics background.
I understand that in South Korea, it is all different.
What is your academic background in? It is obvious you haven't studied linguistics for even a day. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
schwa
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Yap
|
| Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 2:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
Glad I didnt study linguistics & end up as pedantic as you.
There definitely is a relatively neutral North American accent that many foreign english learners find easier to comprehend & choose to emulate. End of story. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
happyinhenan
Joined: 01 Feb 2015
|
| Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 2:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
| schwa wrote: |
| Glad I didnt study linguistics & end up as pedantic as you. |
A pity, seeing as you spent so long teaching English and you still know nothing about the mechanics of dialect.
| Quote: |
| There definitely is a relatively neutral North American accent that many foreign english learners find easier to comprehend & choose to emulate. End of story. |
You are confusing a glut of accents (Pacific-Northwest, Midland/Midwest,
Californian) that have similar characteristics for being the same and thus 'neutral' (which is ridiculous if you think about it for more than five seconds).
That would be wrong.
If we take British-English accents, let's say for example.
Lancashire-West Yorkshire
Teeside-Tyneside
Scouse-North Walian
Black Country-Brummie
The above pairs have marked differences, but to the layman, they would sound exactly the same .
I am not arguing about which type of accents are preferred in Korea, I am not arguing that North American English has more uniformity than any other type of English (except for Australian English) and it is easier for Koreans to understand such people - what I am arguing, and it is the only thing - is the neutrality of accent! It is ridiculous.
And it would be nice to get someone who knows something about linguistics on here, to weigh in with their opinion. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mangotango
Joined: 24 Apr 2015
|
| Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 7:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
It's easy to mention regions and claim they have marked differences, but what are the differences? How can you tell where someone is from?
You mentioned Lancashire/West Yorkshire - are you suggesting these are the same accent? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mangotango
Joined: 24 Apr 2015
|
| Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 8:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
I have built a questionnaire on this topic as part of a module for an MA. It involves rating accents and answering questions relating to the topics mentioned in this discussion. If you guys have a spare 15 mins to do it that would be great. Ill put the overall results up on this discussion - will be interesting to see peoples perceptions of the accents.
https://accentsandattitudes.wordpress.com/ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
happyinhenan
Joined: 01 Feb 2015
|
| Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 2:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| mangotango wrote: |
| It's easy to mention regions and claim they have marked differences, but what are the differences? How can you tell where someone is from? |
Accent/dialect differentiation has a fair few factors but vowel shifts and the differences in useage of words being two main factors.
To use West Yorkshire and Lancashire as an example and to explain it as simply as I can. The way a person from West Yorkshire pronounces 'stone' and 'you' is very different from how someone from Lancashire pronounces it - the stress on the vowels and how the vowel changes are very marked.
In Yorkshire, they call a barmcake a 'breadcake' and they also have their own words that are never used in Lancashire like 'Sen' there are a ton of examples but it is early and 2) You can do your own damn research. 
| Quote: |
| You mentioned Lancashire/West Yorkshire - are you suggesting these are the same accent? |
No, I am suggesting to a layman - to an American, they would sound the same but because they think it sounds the same, they do not.
Like I said before, because someone can't find El Salvador on the map it would be wrong to doubt its existence. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mangotango
Joined: 24 Apr 2015
|
| Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 8:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
The point I was making is that there are a lot of assumptions on how people speak differently but none of it is backed up. It is easy to base linguistic variation on geographical boundaries and stereotypes.
There have been many perceptual dialectology studies (Check out Preston for USA and Pearce for UK) on how people perceive places to speak, and a lot of these perceptions are based on social constructions.
Peter Trudgill and the British Library have documented regional accents in the UK. However, they target non-mobile rural older males due to the lack of influence had on their accent from people outside their community, and are not representative of a typical accent from that area.
It seems a few comments have mentioned that American accents are preferred because they are easier to understand. Surely this is less to do with understanding and more to do with perceived social status?
In terms of 'neutral accent' being a 'myopic' view, I think that to dismiss it as such, criticising anyone who claims to have one is the myopic view. If so many people claim to have one, surely it must be worth investigating. I think you are mistaking 'neutral' accent with a claim to not having an accent. A neutral accent is still an accent, but just what accent is it? I think it is worthy of a definition, or at least an attempt. There may be more than one neutral accent - maybe each country has its own neutral accent?
(p.s If you haven't, please do my questionnaire above. It asks to rate the accents based on certain characteristics. It will be interesting to see who assigns what characteristics to each accent, and if you can pinpoint where they are from) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
happyinhenan
Joined: 01 Feb 2015
|
| Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 2:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| mangotango wrote: |
| The point I was making is that there are a lot of assumptions on how people speak differently but none of it is backed up. It is easy to base linguistic variation on geographical boundaries and stereotypes. |
And I gave you some information that backed up by an example of the differences of speech between Lancashire and West Yorkshire.
If you didn't catch it, I'll tell you again - the differences between Lancashire and West Yorkshire dialect speech patterns are word usage and vowel shifts, however, to a layman, they would sound exactly the same - to someone who knows the accents or is a dialectologist - they can spot the marked differences easily.
| Quote: |
| There have been many perceptual dialectology studies (Check out Preston for USA and Pearce for UK) on how people perceive places to speak, and a lot of these perceptions are based on social constructions. |
That's right. The reason RP came into existence.
| Quote: |
| Peter Trudgill and the British Library have documented regional accents in the UK. |
He hasn't been the only one you know.
| Quote: |
| However, they target non-mobile rural older males due to the lack of influence had on their accent from people outside their community, and are not representative of a typical accent from that area. |
Noted, but there has been a lot of dialectology fieldwork on all kinds of accents and on every kind of social group. So, I don't know what the point is here?
| Quote: |
| It seems a few comments have mentioned that American accents are preferred because they are easier to understand. Surely this is less to do with understanding and more to do with perceived social status? |
The preference of the midland NA accent has been documented and I tend to agree with why that preference exists in Korea (which is what people have been talking about).
A lot of reasons have been neo-colonialism, immigration, emigration - has 'social status' got anything to do with it? Maybe... the onus is on you to explain why? Because people are talking about how the situation is in Korea.
Personally, I see the Koreans and their learning language as practical and a lot of learning goes on because they want to send their kids to American universities, emigrate to the US or Canada and that learning English the 'correct' way has a lot of gravitas.
Also, in the case of Korea - Confucian ideals are in place in regards ranking - everything is ranked - including types of English.
| Quote: |
| In terms of 'neutral accent' being a 'myopic' view, I think that to dismiss it as such, criticising anyone who claims to have one is the myopic view. |
Nonsense!
| Quote: |
| If so many people claim to have one, surely it must be worth investigating. |
No. It's silly.
It is like claiming your car is a 'neutral' colour.
| Quote: |
| I think you are mistaking 'neutral' accent with a claim to not having an accent. |
You cannot have 'no' accent.
You cannot have a 'neutral' accent.
I am not mistaking nothing because I don't make those ridiculous claims in the first place.
| Quote: |
| A neutral accent is still an accent, but just what accent is it? |
One that doesn't exist.
| Quote: |
| I think it is worthy of a definition, or at least an attempt. There may be more than one neutral accent - maybe each country has its own neutral accent? |
What you have - in the case of the United States - are several accents that cover a huge area that have similarities - what would be more accurate is to describe these accents as 'accents that have common ground with one another' they are similar sounding, but not the same - in the same way Lancashire and West Yorkshire or Teeside and Tyneside sound similar to the layman - but not the same. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
285285
Joined: 24 Feb 2008
Location: Seoul
|
| Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 7:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I've worked with quite a few teachers who resorted to odd twists of irrationality to try to establish that their accent (or claimed lack of accent) was ideal for teaching.
I've met:
US teachers who stated that they are ideal because the US is "the dominant world power". Also "Educated Americans don't have an accent, we are neutral". By "educated", I got the feeling they meant "wealthy" or "privileged".
British teachers who proudly state that "we invented the language". One time I heard the bizarre claim that "we used to rule 80% of the world".
A couple of CELTA trainers who enjoyed mocking an American teacher for his (rather blue collar sounding) accent and manner.
A Canadian who shyly suggested that Canadian is "the ideal hybrid of US and UK usage". I laughed out loud at that, he looked a bit hurt.
An Australian who droned on in a thick Aussie drawl that he spoke with "standard British pronounciation" (yes, he said "pronounciation" rather than "pronunciation").
I have yet to meet anyone who acknowledged that a regional variation of English different to their own had any merit. Fortunately I've also met a fair number of teachers who just try to do their job without trying to explain the innate superiority of their accent. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
happyinhenan
Joined: 01 Feb 2015
|
| Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 8:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| 285285 wrote: |
I've worked with quite a few teachers who resorted to odd twists of irrationality to try to establish that their accent (or claimed lack of accent) was ideal for teaching.
I've met:
US teachers who stated that they are ideal because the US is "the dominant world power". Also "Educated Americans don't have an accent, we are neutral". By "educated", I got the feeling they meant "wealthy" or "privileged".
British teachers who proudly state that "we invented the language". One time I heard the bizarre claim that "we used to rule 80% of the world".
A couple of CELTA trainers who enjoyed mocking an American teacher for his (rather blue collar sounding) accent and manner.
A Canadian who shyly suggested that Canadian is "the ideal hybrid of US and UK usage". I laughed out loud at that, he looked a bit hurt.
An Australian who droned on in a thick Aussie drawl that he spoke with "standard British pronounciation" (yes, he said "pronounciation" rather than "pronunciation").
I have yet to meet anyone who acknowledged that a regional variation of English different to their own had any merit. Fortunately I've also met a fair number of teachers who just try to do their job without trying to explain the innate superiority of their accent. |
Good post! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
chellovek
Joined: 29 Feb 2008
|
| Posted: Fri May 08, 2015 1:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| aq8knyus wrote: |
I have always found my English accent to be a net positive in Korea. Although I work mainly with adult learners and so that might be the reason.
I completely understand though why some Brits might have problems. I grew up in the non-yam yam parts of the Midlands in the UK and even I had trouble understanding yam yams. Scousers, Geordies and West Country types should try and soften their regional twang and speak with an RP accent.
Korea had/has a pseudo imperial relationship with the US and so it is unsurprising that they would prefer yank accents. There are many places around the world that has a preference for British English on account of the Empire. |
Walsall. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
EZE
Joined: 05 May 2012
|
| Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 6:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| happyinhenan wrote: |
| Who was your boss? Obviously not anyone with a linguistics background - this is what happens when you hire poli-sci graduates and other people without a clue to teach language. |
That's what her degree was in. But I agree that doesn't make her a linguistics expert, anymore than you're one. Let's not get carried away by thinking a diploma or certificate makes us an expert. My degree is in business and my major was logistics. When I started working in that field after graduating university, the minimum wage dock workers who had been doing it for years knew far more about logistics than I did. Even after managing those guys for eight years, most of them still knew more and a lot of them were high school drop outs. Of course, some of my co-workers in management thought they were experts because they had a diploma.
Look at it this way. I'm working for peanuts in the sticks of Korea. You're working for peanuts in the sticks of China. Surely a great linguistics expert would be working in Pudong instead of Henan, publishing critically acclaimed best-selling books and being flown out to conferences instead of writing about linguistics on Dave's with lowly laymen like us. How is it that you have allowed some farmboy hillbilly like me to end up in a parallel position and salary as you in a field in which you have a degree and I don't? Some laymen on here are in much more prestigious positions than you and are making small fortunes while you and I aren't. If you want to say you're an expert, fine, but nobody is going to take you seriously until you actually go out and prove yourself.
| happyinhenan wrote: |
| That - I am afraid is ignorance begetting ignorance - because someone is ignorant of the marked differences between midwest American and Canadian accents does not mean those accents haven't got differences. |
But you think you can tell the differences between an American family and a Canadian family who are neighbors on the border just because you have a college degree. That's ignorance.
| happyinhenan wrote: |
So, if an Australian said to you - 'I don't have an accent - it is neutral' because you don't know if they are from Queensland or NSW - what would you say?
And again, everybody speaks with a regional accent, it is just your knowledge on the different accents that exist in North America is sorely lacking. |
I would say, "Okay." I would just assume they mean they speak with a common Australian accent instead of a regional one. I definitely wouldn't say, "No! No you don't! You're a layman and if you ask anyone in the UK with a degree in linguistics, they can easily tell which town in Australia you're from!"
| happyinhenan wrote: |
| It is alarming though that a lot of people earning a living teaching English do not know the basic mechanics of linguistics and accent. |
Who cares? Sometimes you write run-on sentences when you laugh at others for being English teachers. It looks like both of us are living in glass houses when it comes to our English language knowledge. I'm not even going to pretend to be an expert. After all, anyone can look at your grammar and mine and immediately pick up on the fact that we have glaring deficiencies in our English skills. We can claim to be English language experts if that's what floats our boats, but we're not fooling anyone.
| happyinhenan wrote: |
| I am in China! I am on more money than all the Americans at my place because of my linguistics background. |
You're in Henan. We both know what that means. When I taught in China, I was relegated to the sticks too. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
