|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Smithington
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
|
 Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:15 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| Underwaterbob wrote: |
| Tell me again how you know "without a doubt" that more people die in Korea due to police neglect than American police brutality. |
Happily.
Let's take the last year for which statistics are available. Police shot dead 461 people in the US in 2013. That works out to roughly 1.25 persons a day. In the same year 5, 200 Koreans died in traffic accidents. That works out to roughly 14.25 persons a day. Now consider the extent to which traffic laws are not enforced here (seat belt laws ignored, infants not secured in safety seats, speeding, failing to indicate, erratic driving, running red lights, cars blocking others view of oncoming traffic, and a hundred other things). Are we to believe that none of these deaths are caused by Koreans ignoring traffic laws? Are you saying that Korea’s death rate is unaffected by the absence of effective police enforcement? We can see with our own eyes how dangerously Koreans drive. It at the very top of the OECD for traffic road deaths. If effective policing saved only one or two lives a day that would be a greater number than the 461 people shot by American cops.
People are dying in significant numbers because traffic laws are not being enforced by the police. It’s that simple.
Traffic laws are enforced in other countries for a good reason. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
thrylos
Joined: 10 Jun 2008
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Smithington wrote: |
| Underwaterbob wrote: |
| Tell me again how you know "without a doubt" that more people die in Korea due to police neglect than American police brutality. |
Happily.
Let's take the last year for which statistics are available. Police shot dead 461 people in the US in 2013. That works out to roughly 1.25 persons a day. In the same year 5, 200 Koreans died in traffic accidents. That works out to roughly 14.25 persons a day. Now consider the extent to which traffic laws are not enforced here (seat belt laws ignored, infants not secured in safety seats, speeding, failing to indicate, erratic driving, running red lights, cars blocking others view of oncoming traffic, and a hundred other things). Are we to believe that none of these deaths are caused by Koreans ignoring traffic laws? Are you saying that Korea’s death rate is unaffected by the absence of effective police enforcement? We can see with our own eyes how dangerously Koreans drive. It at the very top of the OECD for traffic road deaths. If effective policing saved only one or two lives a day that would be a greater number than the 461 people shot by American cops.
People are dying in significant numbers because traffic laws are not being enforced by the police. It’s that simple.
Traffic laws are enforced in other countries for a good reason. |
An in the US, 32,179 people died in automobile accidents in a year, making it about 88 people/day. 
US and SK are virtually tied for traffic deaths/100,000 population (With the US edging out SK!)
US-- 11.6, SK-- 11.4.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate
Even though SK is almost double on fatalities/100,000 vehicles, no one is arguing that K-drivers are plain dumb and oblivious, just as in real life. That is not an enforcement issue, it's a....sparking... one, no doubt.
Still goes to show, many more die at the hands of US donut eaters than Kcops, due to gung-hoism or indifference, traffic rules or not.
Last edited by thrylos on Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:36 pm; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Plain Meaning
Joined: 18 Oct 2014
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Edit: Delete post.
Last edited by Plain Meaning on Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:43 pm; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Chaparrastique wrote: |
"The west" is not a single entity in legal terms. You seem to think LA = the west. Actually the laws depend on the country and state.
Littering, for example, is punishable by 4 months in jail in Arizona. Thus it would go on your record.
I can find similar examples- for all the above offences- that would earn you a criminal record in a western country.
The irony is that Korea bars teachers from employment in this country for things that are normal everyday practice here.
What actually bothers me is that you think these offences are ok and acceptable. Its your mentality. When you finish stuffing your face at a picturesque beauty spot in the countryside, you simply throw down all your garbage and drive off. |
Did you even read your article? The person was cited and arrested for public urination, one of the things I specifically cited on your list as being the one that could get you arrested because of the potential for it to be charged as a sex offense. Also, note the Criminal part of the Criminal Littering offense as opposed to say, Simple Littering. This is usually reserved for severe cases of littering beyond say, a candy wrapper or McDonald's bag. There were probably circumstances involving his public urination that made them go with a misdemeanor charge. Lastly, it is often common practice for certain courts and the police to issue severe charges in the hope that people will plead down. In this case, the lawyer specifically mentions getting it plead down to a civil infraction, and that might well happen.
| Quote: |
| I can find similar examples- for all the above offences- that would earn you a criminal record in a western country. |
Do you seriously think people don't jaywalk at all? Or speed? Or run red lights? Or spit? Or Litter? And do you think there's a bunch of people walking around with full rap sheets with those? Do you seriously think a bunch of people are sitting around in county for this? You have no scale or comprehension of what you are talking about. You can't even tell the difference between a civil infraction, a civil misdemeanor, and a full-on misdemeanor.
| Quote: |
| The irony is that Korea bars teachers from employment in this country for things that are normal everyday practice here. |
No they don't. I could have littered, ran a red light, jaywalked, and spit, and I or you, would have still been able to get a job. Why? Because none of that would show up on your FBI report.
| Quote: |
| What actually bothers me is that you think these offences are ok and acceptable. Its your mentality. When you finish stuffing your face at a picturesque beauty spot in the countryside, you simply throw down all your garbage and drive off. |
What actually bothers me is that I have in no way said that that stuff is okay, but in an effort to win the argument, you are making up the fact that I did. I do think a few of those things can have varying interpretations of severity.
| Quote: |
| When you finish stuffing your face at a picturesque beauty spot in the countryside, you simply throw down all your garbage and drive off. |
Where did I endorse littering?
======================================================
Let's do an experiment- Start a thread on Dave's titled: "I once got ticketed for jaywalking, do I have a criminal record and will I still be able to teach here?" Watch the snarky comments roll in and we'll see who is right. We all know how such a thread would go. The OP would be mocked and teased and people would tell them to relax.
PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jazzmaster
Joined: 30 Sep 2013
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
Last edited by jazzmaster on Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:53 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jazzmaster
Joined: 30 Sep 2013
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
Last edited by jazzmaster on Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:53 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jazzmaster
Joined: 30 Sep 2013
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
| thrylos wrote: |
| Smithington wrote: |
| Underwaterbob wrote: |
| Tell me again how you know "without a doubt" that more people die in Korea due to police neglect than American police brutality. |
Happily.
Let's take the last year for which statistics are available. Police shot dead 461 people in the US in 2013. That works out to roughly 1.25 persons a day. In the same year 5, 200 Koreans died in traffic accidents. That works out to roughly 14.25 persons a day. Now consider the extent to which traffic laws are not enforced here (seat belt laws ignored, infants not secured in safety seats, speeding, failing to indicate, erratic driving, running red lights, cars blocking others view of oncoming traffic, and a hundred other things). Are we to believe that none of these deaths are caused by Koreans ignoring traffic laws? Are you saying that Korea’s death rate is unaffected by the absence of effective police enforcement? We can see with our own eyes how dangerously Koreans drive. It at the very top of the OECD for traffic road deaths. If effective policing saved only one or two lives a day that would be a greater number than the 461 people shot by American cops.
People are dying in significant numbers because traffic laws are not being enforced by the police. It’s that simple.
Traffic laws are enforced in other countries for a good reason. |
An in the US, 32,179 people died in automobile accidents in a year, making it about 88 people/day.
US and SK are virtually tied for traffic deaths/100,000 population (With the US edging out SK!)
US-- 11.6, SK-- 11.4.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate
Even though SK is almost double on fatalities/100,000 vehicles, no one is arguing that K-drivers are plain dumb and oblivious, just as in real life. That is not an enforcement issue, it's a....sparking... one, no doubt.
Still goes to show, many more die at the hands of US donut eaters than Kcops, due to gung-hoism or indifference, traffic rules or not. |
It's strange the way you lot always compare Korea to America. Let's look at the figures for all the countries:
Australia 5.6 /7.6
Canada 6 /9.3
Japan 4.8 /7.3
NZ 7.4 /10.3
S Korea 11.4 /26.8
U.K. 3.5 /6.2
It's fairly clear which country has the problem. And the police are responsible for enforcing the laws of the road. These figures show they are not enforcing them properly. And spitting, littering, drunk and disorderly behaviour are all other examples of the police failing to enforce the law.
Now let me state this again, because it seems to be ignored by all the apologists here:
Just because the US police department can't get their shit together doesn't excuse the Korean police for their laziness, corruption, and ineptitude
Boom!
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2015/06/116_180040.html
"With police's credibility and morality plummeting, people are skeptical about whether they can trust police officers"
Boom!
"despite having called the police giving accurate details as to her whereabouts. The police arrived at the crime scene 13 hours later, to find her dismembered body as well as the suspected murderer".
http://www.koreabang.com/2012/stories/incompetent-police-fail-to-prevent-horrific-murder-of-woman.html
Boom!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miryang_gang_rape
"At least 41 male high school students gang raped several middle school and high school girls over the course of 11 months. The case provoked controversy due to police mistreatment of the victims and lenient handling of the offenders."
Just to confirm:
I don't give a *beep* about the American police. I don't live in America. Just because the police in America are terrible doesn't excuse Korean police for being terrible. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chaparrastique
Joined: 01 Jan 2014
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 1:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Steelrails wrote: |
No they don't. I could have littered, ran a red light, jaywalked, and spit, and I or you, would have still been able to get a job. Why? Because none of that would show up on your FBI report. |
I already gave you several examples of these things being considered criminal offences or potentially so, in a variety of western countries. That they would in fact show up on your background check. Yes, some of them normally get no more than a ticket- but not always.
There are plenty of examples of this. This person was barred for public urination- something ajosshis do routinely in Korea.
http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=208663
it goes on. Dozens of threads about people barred from visas because of what you consider to be minor infractions- things that Korean police overlook Koreans doing all day long:
http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=222506
| Quote: |
| Where did I endorse littering? |
Where did you condemn it? All you've said is that you can normally get away with it and anybody who gets angry about it is being silly. You don't even demonstrate any awareness of why these things are wrong.
You remind me of two Koreans I know who came back from the US with the following anecdotes.
The first was "amazed" when an American got "so unbelievably angry" when she bumped into him. To her, it was entirely normal to bump, jostle, brush against, touch, shove, push other people. hello!
The second recounted to me a story of having a picnic in a park, after which he threw down his napkins and got up to leave. He was "amazed" when an American got mad and started shouting at him to pick it up. In Korea it would be normal!
This is what I'm saying: the average Korean males behaviour will often cause situations and confrontations- trouble- that ultimately may result in a criminal record- in any western country. They're a liability.
Simply because almost everything they do is marked by sheer arrogance and a blatant lack of consideration for other people.
| JValmer wrote: |
You seriously think that things like jaywaking, and spitting on the street should be treated as criminal? Talk about being a little tight in the rear. |
I never said they should be treated as criminal. I said that in some parts of the west they potentially can get you a criminal record. Just to illustrate that such things are viewed more seriously than they are in korea. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sligo
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 5:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Smithington wrote: |
...When the jerk returns he has to start his car, thereby blowing spewing exhaust fumes over anyone on the sidewalk. Now, since there's a car parked in front of him, he has to back up on the crosswalk. Now imagine a scenario where it’s getting dark, the driver’s had a drink or two with dinner, he’s just had an argument with his wife, and he’s now backing up on the sidewalk. Does a person on crutches (or anyone at all) really have to endure this nonsense? Can the driver backing up see the toddler on her tricycle? A kid running out of a shop? Someone who is bent over tying their shoes? Someone who has slipped and fallen?
There are a thousand reasons why cars do not belong on the sidewalk. There's also a good reason why 'road' in Korean is called "cha-do". It's the designated place for cars. The sidewalk emphatically is not. Yet they don't hesitate for a moment about parking there, even when spots on the street are available.
Disgraceful. |
About a year ago i saw a woman get into her car parked completely on the sidewalk. She walked over to it as if it wasn't a problem, got in, revesed into a bicycle rack and crushed a bike under her back wheels. 3 people waved at her to stop, but she put it into drive and left without so much as a pause for breath. I could see her face whilst she reversed and she knew full well she had hit something, but obviously she had somewhere else to be. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sligo
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 5:20 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Chaparrastique wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
Spitting, Littering, Jaywalking, Violating Traffic Laws, and Public Intoxication do NOT get you a criminal record in the west. |
"The west" is not a single entity in legal terms. You seem to think LA = the west. Actually the laws depend on the country and state.
Littering, for example, is punishable by 4 months in jail in Arizona. Thus it would go on your record.
http://www.justanswer.com/criminal-law/6gzkz-received-criminal-littering-violation-weekend.html#
I can find similar examples- for all the above offences- that would earn you a criminal record in a western country.
The irony is that Korea bars teachers from employment in this country for things that are normal everyday practice here.
What actually bothers me is that you think these offences are ok and acceptable. Its your mentality. When you finish stuffing your face at a picturesque beauty spot in the countryside, you simply throw down all your garbage and drive off. |
One of my previous universities had a vast grass area as part of the campus. When the weather was nice students would gather in groups and eat and drink into the early hours, they called it the "Green Hof". When finished, they would just walk away and leave everything where it was without the slightest attempt to tidy anything. The next morning i would walk accross the campus to my office and there were usually 10 or so abandonned piles of bottles and take away boxes. I once asked my students why they didn'y clean up the mess and they replied:
"It gives old people something to do".
The old people are paid 32,000 won a day to clean up, it seems the youth of today see this as an excuse to do as they please. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Stain
Joined: 08 Jan 2014
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 7:26 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Yes, but Korean police are really cracking down on drunk driving as every night there are several checkpoints in various areas of a city. I wonder how many times a sober driver has crashed into these checkpoints not realizing they were there. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
coralreefer_1
Joined: 19 Jan 2009
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 8:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
Seriously, has this gone all this long?
Are people really wishing for more legal enforcement?
Wait, so long as it doesn't involve a crackdown on illegal private lessons, forget everyone else and write those traffic tickets. I will join your cause.I hope full well the police enforce traffic laws, as well as go on a rampage for all the foreigners running up to Min Su's parents house to teach an illegal and unregistered private lesson, and ohh yeah....lets have the police hang outside the favorite watering hole to enforce the non existent (yet a common gripe here on Dave's about public intoxication) law.
Gotta love ESL'ers in Korea. Just as fickle as a lilly in the wind. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 8:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
| I'm pretty we DON'T want K-cops enforcing victimless crimes (such as consumption/possession of marijuana, teaching privates. gambling, etc.) but DO want enforcement of laws keeping others safe from harm (cars running red lights mowing people down, domestic violence, etc.). But that's not how the world works as of now. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SocialParasite
Joined: 19 Jan 2012
Location: South Korea
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
| I would prefer police not enforcing any laws upon my person outside the ones that many deem "natural laws." I would prefer no police at all...but that's just me. Because as we all know, the police are there to protect us from the" bad guys"....yeah that's it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
No government : Somalia
Too much government: North Korea
Somewhere in between those is the right amount. Since humans are inherently wicked and stupid, neither extreme (anarchy or communism) will work. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
