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Sister Ray
Joined: 25 Mar 2006
Location: Fukuoka
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 Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
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Also, why do people always bring up camping and "whatnot" when they're trying to defend the ostensible need to own a vehicle? |
Steelrails has yet to move into the 21st century with his views on transport.
He'll use any absurd confluence of unlikely hypothetical scenarios to justify the necessity of the private automobile. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 5:20 am Post subject: |
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| silkhighway wrote: |
To be fair, my family lives inner-city and we own a car for exactly that reason. For me, a car is freedom to travel Western Canada and the US. It's freedom to get to the cottage, mountains,the coast, national parks, long drives into the prairie skies, everything to me that is special about living in this part of the world.
Big difference between that and being trapped in traffic during the morning commute though, only to pay through the nose for parking. I'm all for good city public transit, alternative options like car-sharing, and bike infrastructure. |
Sure, and you do hear that more on the West Coast where there are actually places to drive to. In relative terms, exceedingly few individuals on the East Coast actually make a point of getting out into nature more than a couple times each summer. This also fits within my larger point of owning a car as opposed to the North American norm of each family member having a car if the family can afford it. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 5:59 am Post subject: |
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| silkhighway wrote: |
There are a handful of North American cities where if you live in the city, at least in the city centre, a car is more of a hindrance than a help, whatever your socio-economic background. That's not to say these areas are representative of America as a whole, definitely not, but these areas definitely exist.
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Well, that is certainly the case for a select few jobs, assuming your job doesn't require the use of a vehicle. However, as I said, these people tend to also rely on car services or taxis. That still contributes to traffic.
| northway wrote: |
| And to be able to live in one of those areas is, in a word, aspirational. I know plenty of exceptionally well off individuals in New York in particular who would never think of purchasing a vehicle, even with their ability to pay for all its ancillary costs. |
Well, the aspirational part has as much to do with the property value attached to said place. Also, the car usage is merely shifted to "the help" and again, they make use of car services. The aspirational part is to be able to be driven and summon a car, not an utter rejection of the use of the automobile.
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| I have no idea what the hell "whatnot" is, so I won't speculate as to how much people do that. The fact that you need to reference "whatnot", however, would seemingly detract from the point that there are all sorts of activities that necessitate vehicles. |
To have a comprehensive list as to why someone would need vehicle would be a tedious exercise.
Regardless, when one is rich, one merely outsources many of these tasks to others who do operate a motor vehicle in order to accomplish such tasks. Instead of them driving a car to get groceries, they simply have some help go pick it up in a vehicle and deliver it.
| Sister Ray wrote: |
| Steelrails has yet to move into the 21st century with his views on transport. |
And Sister Ray has yet to live in the real world with her views on transport. Just because YOU don't need a car, doesn't mean a car is unnecessary.
Parents have to pick up kids. People have to move stuff. People have to go places where public transportation doesn't take you. People's jobs require them to carry materials that are to heavy and large to carry by hand all day. Some people make their living through manual labor and heavy equipment, not by some desk job or singing the ABC song. People have to use their vehicle as a means of sale and distribution of products or services that provide their livelihood. Public transportation doesn't operate 24-7. Bus lines between cities don't run 24-7 and some stop pretty early in the evening. Not everyone lives in close proximity to public transport stops, even in major cities.
Try and grasp the concept that not everyone's life is the same as yours and thus they have different circumstances and requirements when it comes to transportation. |
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silkhighway
Joined: 24 Oct 2010
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 6:31 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| silkhighway wrote: |
There are a handful of North American cities where if you live in the city, at least in the city centre, a car is more of a hindrance than a help, whatever your socio-economic background. That's not to say these areas are representative of America as a whole, definitely not, but these areas definitely exist.
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Well, that is certainly the case for a select few jobs, assuming your job doesn't require the use of a vehicle. However, as I said, these people tend to also rely on car services or taxis. That still contributes to traffic.
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First , congestion from traffic is as much about parking. Calgary is an example of a city that has included restricting downtown parking since the mid 90's as part of their traffic management. The result is for a sprawly low-density city, it actually has a decent public transit infrastructure.
And even then it is an extremely small minority that depends on car services and taxis, except maybe the last mile. More realistic is home delivery, car sharing services, biking. New Yorkers walk a lot more than the average American. |
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Who's Your Daddy?
Joined: 30 May 2010
Location: Victoria, Canada.
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| Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 7:18 am Post subject: |
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I used to live uptown Toronto (Yonge and Lawrence), maybe 20 meters from a subway stop. I still had a car. I tried it without a car and it was frustrating. A visit to a shopping mall would take 1 hour round trip, vs. A 10 minute drive. You would have a hassle with groceries and not be able to easily buy in bulk at a Costco. I couldn't easily visit friends around the city, and those in the suburbs were like in another country. Evening classes at the University were impossible without a car to arrive on time, and get home at a decent time afterward.
Maybe if you've never owned a car, you don't know what you are missing. (It was true for Korea too).
When I hear people say they don't want a car, I assume they are poor and can't afford it. |
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silkhighway
Joined: 24 Oct 2010
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 8:24 am Post subject: |
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| Who's Your Daddy? wrote: |
When I hear people say they don't want a car, I assume they are poor and can't afford it. |
That's a very old-fashioned view. There are even condos popping up without parking, saving the owners around $50,000 off their mortgage.
I got along fine without a car for years, although i did rent one a couple times a year.Now there are more options than ever since car sharing services have sprung up and Bike infrastructure is improving. Knocking a few dollars off your grocery bill by buying bulk at Costco hardly justifies the cost of a car. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 8:35 am Post subject: |
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| Who's Your Daddy? wrote: |
I used to live uptown Toronto (Yonge and Lawrence), maybe 20 meters from a subway stop. I still had a car. I tried it without a car and it was frustrating. A visit to a shopping mall would take 1 hour round trip, vs. A 10 minute drive. You would have a hassle with groceries and not be able to easily buy in bulk at a Costco. I couldn't easily visit friends around the city, and those in the suburbs were like in another country. Evening classes at the University were impossible without a car to arrive on time, and get home at a decent time afterward.
Maybe if you've never owned a car, you don't know what you are missing. (It was true for Korea too).
When I hear people say they don't want a car, I assume they are poor and can't afford it. |
I have a car. I live in New York, and my car lives at my parents' house in Massachusetts.
My friends who do have cars here have them because they have to drive for work, and they routinely lament the enormous hassle it is and the fact that 90% of the time you're going to get where you're going faster by taking the subway than you are by driving, and that's before you account for parking. Saying you have a car in this city elicits a lot more pity than it does jealousy or respect. |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| It's really odd - Seoul has a public transport network that beats the socks off of anything in North America, including New York's much lauded but kind of crappy system. At the same time, however, the approach people take towards vehicle ownership isn't unlike what you would see in the American South. Granted, in the States each family member often has at least one vehicle, but on a philosophical level cars are viewed as a need despite the fact that the subway is often far more convenient in getting you where you need to go. |
It's because virtually anywhere in the world you go, even in the remotest parts of Africa, there are several things every family dreams about owning. Owning a home, car, TV, and maybe a fridge. |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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The traffic, too many cars, folks driving slow, taking a long time for the cars to get going once the light turns green, etc. These are all things that drove me nuts. After 2 or 3 years of driving in this mid sized city and driving through Daejeon, I'm finally getting use to it. But, my friend from Toronto who was also in my car driving around this weekend, also said teh same thing. It's just like Toronto. Only difference is the lack of cars during the overnight hours I guess. But from early in the morning until maybe 11 or 12 at night, lots of cars all the time.
I think many waygooks are from small town North America and aren't accustomed to this. Driving patters just strange to us. Folks that drive too slow, take a long time to get going when the light turns green, mixed with some aggressive driving with others, etc. |
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Sister Ray
Joined: 25 Mar 2006
Location: Fukuoka
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| Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| jvalmer wrote: |
It's because virtually anywhere in the world you go, even in the remotest parts of Africa, there are several things every family dreams about owning. Owning a home, car, TV, and maybe a fridge. |
Maybe a fridge? I'd say that's far more essential than a car or TV.
The trouble with every family wanting a car, in an urban context, is you end up with a city like Seoul. Huge amounts of valuable space wasted on enormous multi lane roads. This has a multiplicity of negative consequences, most significantly pushing up property prices, severing communities and reducing air quality.
If you want to drive everywhere and live in a city, expect to live in a city like Seoul or LA. If you're happy to use alternatives you can live somewhere generally considered more pleasant like Tokyo or any number of European cities. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Sister Ray wrote: |
The trouble with every family wanting a car
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Again, you really don't get it. Family's don't just WANT cars, they NEED cars. You obviously don't have the real life experience of taking along 2 kids, plus groceries for a family of 4 and doing it on the bus and subway in the rain/snow/heat. Your job hasn't required you to go from site to site on a regular basis and haul around some sort of heavy equipment to do so. You don't have relatives that you have to regularly visit that live in areas that aren't easily accessible by public transportation. You don't have any physical ailments that make walking around town an arduous task. If you did, you'd realize that driving a car isn't just a want, it is often a need.
If you think families are just driving around to "show off", please. No one is showing off in their Kia Carens as they pull into HomePlus and unload 2 kids and have to go buy cheap clothes and groceries for the week. Yeah, maybe rich guy in his BMW is, but that's not the majority of drivers.
Stop talking like everyone driving a car is just doing it for some lark and to drive for no reason. As someone who regularly uses both public transportation and a car, I can tell you that there are good reasons for me using either one, depending on the circumstances. In many cases, public transportation is the better option. In other cases it wastes an inordinate amount of time and will not allow me to accomplish the task I am undertaking. I understand its virtues, but there are benefits to the automobile as well. |
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trueblue
Joined: 15 Jun 2014
Location: In between the lines
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| Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Well, considering the Asian population in Toronto, it would make sense that driving habits are similar. |
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silkhighway
Joined: 24 Oct 2010
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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Automobiles are often conveniently tagged as the villains responsible for the ills of cities and the disappointments and futilities of city planning. But the destructive effect of automobiles are much less a cause than a symptom of our incompetence at city building.
- Jane Jacobs |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Weigookin74 wrote: |
The traffic, too many cars, folks driving slow, taking a long time for the cars to get going once the light turns green, etc. These are all things that drove me nuts. After 2 or 3 years of driving in this mid sized city and driving through Daejeon, I'm finally getting use to it. But, my friend from Toronto who was also in my car driving around this weekend, also said teh same thing. It's just like Toronto. Only difference is the lack of cars during the overnight hours I guess. But from early in the morning until maybe 11 or 12 at night, lots of cars all the time.
I think many waygooks are from small town North America and aren't accustomed to this. Driving patters just strange to us. Folks that drive too slow, take a long time to get going when the light turns green, mixed with some aggressive driving with others, etc. |
I've driven the Gyeongbu highway around 2 am in the morning going past Daegu, and Daejeon, on a few occasions. Just say right 2 lanes are packed full of delivery trucks of all sizes. Merging into those lanes is nerve-wrecking wondering if the truck driver behind you is fully awake or note... |
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Sister Ray
Joined: 25 Mar 2006
Location: Fukuoka
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| Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 4:46 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Sister Ray wrote: |
The trouble with every family wanting a car
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Again, you really don't get it. Family's don't just WANT cars, they NEED cars. |
That's a pretty absurd claim when you either totally missed or, more likely, chose to avoid the central point of my post.
You harp on and on citing hypothetical examples of multi passenger journeys, despite the fact I have previously provided you (more than once,) with statistics which show the vast majority of automobile journeys (in both Seoul and the US,) are single occupant.
My claim is not that nobody will ever need a car. My claim, which you consistently choose to ignore, is that many journeys currently made in private vehicles could be more efficiently made on public transport.
The provision for road space for everybody to make every journey by car results in numerous negative consequences in an urban context. Many of which I mentioned, and you ignored, in my last post.
The results are clear by comparing two very similar, yet vastly different, cities. Seoul is designed with throughput of vehicular traffic as a primary concern. As a result, air quality is poor, pedestrian amenity and sense of place is very low. Seoul always ranks poorly in the various "liveable city" indices. Tokyo, on the other hand, is built around a comprehensive rail network with much less provision for private vehicles. As a result, neighbourhoods are pleasant for those choosing non automotive modes, air quality is far better than Seoul and Tokyo regularly tops "liveable city" indices.
If everybody needs a car as you claim, how do you propose cities ameliorate the negative effects this would inflict on a city's sense of place?
Can you answer this question, or the main thesis of my post, without your go to anecdote of the family with kids and groceries? |
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