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Plain Meaning
Joined: 18 Oct 2014
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 Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| EZE wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| ALL public school teachers have to take the tests Korean or not. |
That's an urban myth.
Unposter's wife teaches at a public school and she doesn't have to take the tests.
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| At hakwons (PRIVATE business...it is the call of the director. NOT government). |
That's another urban myth.
At my previous hagwon, I was seven months into my contract when my boss got a letter from the government saying a new round of tests was required for foreign teachers. This wasn't the call of the director. It was required by the government. One of the teachers was only weeks from completing her contract and returning to the USA, but even she had to be tested. |
So one case based on hearsay means it's an urban myth?
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“We have not changed any of our policies on HIV testing,” Lee You-jin, a member of the residence and visa division of KIS, said via email on Nov. 19.
In follow-up correspondence after publication, however, she claimed that all Korean public servants were required to take the same test, as part of a general health checkup. Accordingly, she said that such a policy could not be regarded as discrimination. |
(From the Korean Herald link on page 5)
True it is from the KH but it's at least as good as hearsay. 
As for your hakwon...that's a little better...but it's still only one case and seems largely based on conjecture. How do you know for 100% sure it was required by the government for example? Your boss might have SAID he had a letter from the government but did you see this letter and can you read Korean? |
Hearsay is simply an out-of-court statement offered for the ultimate truth of the matter.
So what you've offered is hearsay from a Korean government official (that Korean public servants are required to take the test), and now posters are rebutting that hearsay with other hearsay.
Do you know what is not hearsay? The letter of the law, which states that an HIV positive result will result in deportation.
Once again, if you can point to any Korean administrative regulation, or even official publication, that states whether or not Korean public servants are required to take the test, then you would have something that would be better than hearsay (technically its hearsay but its one of many exceptions which allow for its admissibility under procedural rules).
Do you know what else is not hearsay? In-court testimony, such as the testimony offered before 86th Session of the United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination.
Through that link you can find a copy of the CERD opinion. At paragraph 2.7 and 2.8 it states:
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On 25 May 2009, the petitioner submitted a letter to UMOE explaining that, as a matter of principle, she refused to undertake another time the required medical tests as such tests were of a discriminatory nature and an affront to her dignity. She added that while she was willing to undergo any health check also required from her fellow Korean teachers, she would not undertake the medical tests required only from foreigners. She noted that such tests were stemming from a governmental policy and were not even prescribed by law, and that they contributed to promote xenophobic beliefs that “foreigners do drugs”, “have diseases” and “are sex offenders”.
On 26 May 2009, she received a reply from a representative of the Ministry of Education, stating that status and employment procedures for Korean teachers and foreign temporary teachers were different, and that it was within the competency of the Ministry to decide on the procedure and check-ups required for the recruitment of foreign native speaker teachers. |
[emphasis is mine]
The above was a statement made before the court, for the ultimate truth of the matter asserted, which the Court accepted. Paragraph 7.4 of the opinion.
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| The Committee notes the petitioner’s claim that, as a result of her refusal to undergo the contested mandatory testing for a second time, she was denied the possibility to continue to work at the school, in violation of article 5 (e) (i) of the Convention. It observes that foreign English teachers who are ethnically Koreans and Korean teachers are exempted of such testing and that the testing is therefore not decided on the basis of distinction between citizens and non-citizens, but of ethnic origin. The Committee also observes that mandatory HIV/AIDS testing for employment purpose, as well as for entry, stay and residence purposes, is considered to be in contradiction with international standards as such measures appear to be ineffective for public health purposes, discriminatory and harmful for the enjoyment of fundamental rights. The Committee further notes that the State party did not provide any reasons to justify the mandatory testing policy. It also notes that during the KCAB arbitration proceedings, some UMOE officials confirmed that HIV/AIDS and illegal drugs tests were viewed as a mean to check the values and morality of foreign English teachers. In this context, the Committee recalls its general recommendation XXX, in which it recommends that States parties take “resolute action to counter any tendency to target, stigmatize, stereotype or profile, on the basis of race, colour, descent, and nation or ethnic origin, members of “non-citizen” population groups, especially by politicians” . It is not contested by the State party that, in fine, the only reason why the petitioner did not have her working contract renewed was that she refused to undergo the re-testing for HIV/AIDS and illegal drugs. The Committee considers that the mandatory testing policy limited to foreign English teachers who are not ethnically Koreans, does not appear to be justified on public health grounds or any other ground, and is a breach of the right to work without distinction as to race, colour, national or ethnic origin, in violation of the State party’s obligation to guarantee equality in respect of the right to work as enshrined in article 5, paragraph (e) (i) of the Convention. |
[emphasis is mine]
Such was the finding of the committee. |
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Enrico Palazzo
Mod Team
Joined: 11 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 12:03 am Post subject: |
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| Stan Rogers wrote: |
| I took classes on racism in school and I can assure you that only white people are racist. |
Stan, just can it. Dave's not a place for you to be trolling around. Got it? There are real hobbies out there to be had. |
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Enrico Palazzo
Mod Team
Joined: 11 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 12:06 am Post subject: |
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| Ralph Winfield wrote: |
This is at least the second time in the past several years that South Korealand has been slammed by the U.N. for state-sponsored and constitutionally-codified racism. Tssk, tssk, tssk, the messed-up U.S., which is the Koreans favourite nation to bash when the Kimberlees get spanked for their nation's status quo and myriad shockingly backwards cultural norms, is still Nirvana when compared to the R.O.K.
Funny, I still have a soft spot in me heart for Koreaville in spite of her all-too-many warts. Lots of love to the Koreantown natives and Kyopos reading this post.
Cordially,
Ralphie Poo |
Complains about racism, but then engages in it, himself. |
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Bongotruck
Joined: 19 Mar 2015
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| Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 1:58 am Post subject: |
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I think it was a tongue in cheek comment on how Sociology is being taught to the young left wingers.
| Enrico Palazzo wrote: |
| Stan Rogers wrote: |
| I took classes on racism in school and I can assure you that only white people are racist. |
Stan, just can it. Dave's not a place for you to be trolling around. Got it? There are real hobbies out there to be had. |
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Smithington
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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Will our apology from the Korean government be sent to us in both English and Korean, or just Korean? Will the education minister be forced to resign? Will we get a free towel set with "Sorry about that" embriodered into it? Or will they just think of another way to stigmatize us? "We can't make them have HIV tests anymore. Maybe we can get MBC to do another hit piece on them as drug addicted molesters."
Our demonization ain't gonna go away that easily. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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I just confirmed that the health check Korean public school teachers do is less extensive (and incidentally thus less expensive) than the health check to which foreigners are subjected. They are two different checks. Not the same.
Foreign teachers: tested for drugs and HIV.
Korean teachers: not tested for that. |
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Smithington
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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Here's the thing. As far as I'm aware, no article or editorial has been written covering the UN's position on this. Nor any comment on the Korean government subsequently dropping the tests. Where's the self-reflection in the Korean media, and Korean society generally? Why no news commentary saying this was a shameful attempt at demonizing an identifiable minority. Will anything be learned from this (never mind an apology) that will help Korea mature a little bit faster?
I doubt it very much.
I suppose the reason there's no comment welcoming the abandonment of the HIV tests in the media, churches, political parties, labor unions, university groups and what have you is exactly this - none of them stood up for us when we were being demonized. Not a voice saying, "Hey, you can't say that about an identifiable group" or "These HIV tests are a disgrace" or 'Statistics show that this scare-mongering has no basis in fact". Not a word from any source in our defence. And now that Korea's been forced (by outside pressure) to drop the HIV tests, and refrain from hate-mongering, it has gone unreported. In other democracies, when minorities are attacked and stimmatized other forces from within those societies raise a voice of protest. In Korea the voices that should have stood up for us were absolutely silent. Even our school boards who should have been the first to our defence were, to their disgrace, completely silent. And that's to Korea's shame.
It just shows you that, despite having free elections, Korea has still a lot to learn about what being a "liberal democracy" means. It's about more than voting for a party that you believe will champion your (and only your) interests.
Evolve faster, Korea. |
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Who's Your Daddy?
Joined: 30 May 2010
Location: Victoria, Canada.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:49 am Post subject: |
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| Have the Korean government dropped the HIV tests? Both immigration and the Education Ministry? |
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th3
Joined: 05 Sep 2014
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| Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
I just confirmed that the health check Korean public school teachers do is less extensive (and incidentally thus less expensive) than the health check to which foreigners are subjected. They are two different checks. Not the same.
Foreign teachers: tested for drugs and HIV.
Korean teachers: not tested for that. |
What kind of drugs do they test for? |
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talentedcrayon
Joined: 27 Aug 2013
Location: Why do you even care?
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| Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:58 am Post subject: |
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| th3 wrote: |
What kind of drugs do they test for? |
MJ, Coke, Crack-Coke, Heroin, Meth, prescription drugs, MDMA... That purple stuff that Bobby is selling on 3rd avenue and Cooper St.
If you have hair, shave it off. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 4:56 am Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
I just confirmed that the health check Korean public school teachers do is less extensive (and incidentally thus less expensive) than the health check to which foreigners are subjected. They are two different checks. Not the same.
Foreign teachers: tested for drugs and HIV.
Korean teachers: not tested for that. |
Except Mr. Fox just stated that
| Quote: |
| "My Korean wife teaches at a public school, so I asked her about this, and she said her mandatory health check included an STD check" |
Your "confirmation" source please? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 6:05 am Post subject: |
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| Plain Meaning wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| EZE wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| ALL public school teachers have to take the tests Korean or not. |
That's an urban myth.
Unposter's wife teaches at a public school and she doesn't have to take the tests.
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| At hakwons (PRIVATE business...it is the call of the director. NOT government). |
That's another urban myth.
At my previous hagwon, I was seven months into my contract when my boss got a letter from the government saying a new round of tests was required for foreign teachers. This wasn't the call of the director. It was required by the government. One of the teachers was only weeks from completing her contract and returning to the USA, but even she had to be tested. |
So one case based on hearsay means it's an urban myth?
| Quote: |
“We have not changed any of our policies on HIV testing,” Lee You-jin, a member of the residence and visa division of KIS, said via email on Nov. 19.
In follow-up correspondence after publication, however, she claimed that all Korean public servants were required to take the same test, as part of a general health checkup. Accordingly, she said that such a policy could not be regarded as discrimination. |
(From the Korean Herald link on page 5)
True it is from the KH but it's at least as good as hearsay.
As for your hakwon...that's a little better...but it's still only one case and seems largely based on conjecture. How do you know for 100% sure it was required by the government for example? Your boss might have SAID he had a letter from the government but did you see this letter and can you read Korean? |
Hearsay is simply an out-of-court statement offered for the ultimate truth of the matter.
So what you've offered is hearsay from a Korean government official (that Korean public servants are required to take the test), and now posters are rebutting that hearsay with other hearsay.
. |
Quoting a government official from a printed source is NOT hearsay. Look up the definition for yourself.
Now this committee issue...THAT is hearsay. They had a person telling them certain stories which could not be verified/disproven. They made a ruling based on her testimony. But I was unable to see where she actually provided any proof of her story (documents, letters, emails) anything at all other than her word. |
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duhweecher
Joined: 06 Nov 2013
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| Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 6:24 am Post subject: |
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| Smithington wrote: |
Here's the thing. As far as I'm aware, no article or editorial has been written covering the UN's position on this. Nor any comment on the Korean government subsequently dropping the tests. Where's the self-reflection in the Korean media, and Korean society generally? Why no news commentary saying this was a shameful attempt at demonizing an identifiable minority. Will anything be learned from this (never mind an apology) that will help Korea mature a little bit faster?
I suppose the reason there's no comment welcoming the abandonment of the HIV tests in the media, churches, political parties, labor unions, university groups and what have you is exactly this - none of them stood up for us when we were being demonized. Not a voice saying, "Hey, you can't say that about an identifiable group" or "These HIV tests are a disgrace" or 'Statistics show that this scare-mongering has no basis in fact". Not a word from any source in our defence. And now that Korea's been forced (by outside pressure) to drop the HIV tests, and refrain from hate-mongering, it has gone unreported. In other democracies, when minorities are attacked and stimmatized other forces from within those societies raise a voice of protest. In Korea the voices that should have stood up for us were absolutely silent. Even our school boards who should have been the first to our defence were, to their disgrace, completely silent. And that's to Korea's shame.
It just shows you that, despite having free elections, Korea has still a lot to learn about what being a "liberal democracy" means. It's about more than voting for a party that you believe will champion your (and only your) interests.
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I'm joining the conversation late, but was curious about the emboldened points above. Mistake me if I'm wrong, but I think the UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon himself asked Korea directly and verbally several years back to stop testing English teachers for HIV, stating that it's an infringement against basic human rights--yes, including people who are HIV+ (progressives and non-progressives alike) not to mention those who are negative. Mobility is the essence of human dignity, especially when we're not talking about an epidemic. I remember seeing Dr. Ban on TV say something to that extent directly to his people (though he was in another country at the time).
It seems that several writers on this board are arguing that there's no social stimulus to really call for or motivate a change, i.e. it's not a "social issue" per se, thus making it a non-issue or something that can't actually be won without public support or awareness. What I think though is that there are many social issues that have no socially motivated fuel for change or strong social ramifications that promote policy adjustment (cf. allowing for legal immigrant status to former illegals in South Korea just prior to the 2002 World Cup...a policy direction the US has only now begun pursuing). Point being, issues don't always need the general populous's awareness or motivation to led to policy change; the power of the many really do lie in the hands of a very few, somewhat invisible and thus unaccountable, bureaucrats when *it comes to this issue* (though this may be the case for many other issues and mirror similarities in many other countries like in the US on certain issues), which is ultimately the real problem. I don't think these bureaucrats are voted into their positions and therefore enjoy pure reign outside of the constituent-based restraints normally imposed on the just-as-invisible (when it comes to this issue) politicians who are, often single-handedly, responsible for putting said bureaucrats in those positions. This really is a case of the invisible hand ramming a finger up the butt of its own making (e.g. foreign laborers)--some may enjoy it, some may not but everyone should be entitled to have a choice. Stronger systems of accountability is key; mass media, hysteria, or constant television reruns and round-table debates, not so much (though they often help).
In terms of (y)our struggle being one only heard or seen by yourselves--I'm an ally and so is the UN Secretary-General: here you go...(Dated: Christmas Eve, 2010 in the Times):http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2039281,00.html
This is a quote from the article (but I also remember seeing him say it in a couple of speeches as well):
Last month, Ban Ki-moon, secretary general of the United Nations, urged his country to abolish the program. |
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Smithington
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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^ Your post contains an astonishing (perhaps an unprecedented) amount of 'fail'. Instead of linking to a Korean editorial condemning the abuse of English teachers at the time, and our demonization in the press, you (rather bizarrely) link to an article in Time magazine.
Last time I checked Time was an American magazine (although even here you seem confused, referring to it as The Times.) And even the article linked to lists the discrimination against us then, in the very bottom line, it mentions that Ban ki Moon has called for the elimination of the HIV tests. Here's the thing you seem incapable of understanding. The UN is not a Korean organization, and Ban Ki Moon is not speaking for anything or anyone Korean. He is speaking as an employee of, and the mouthpiece of, the United Nations. You know, the the same body that denounced Korea for the tests (try to connect the dots, you can do it). The human rights bodies within the UN clearly pressured him to make a statement on this. He, after all, represents and speaks exclusively for that international organization. He does not in any way, shape or form represent, or speak for, Korea or Korean popular opinion.
If he did then there would be celebrations within civil rights groups here, church groups, leftist organizations, university groups and so on. Unfortunately, there's only silence. No-one except we teachers consider this a victory. No Korean campaigned to have the tests done away with or the demonization of English teachers brought to an end. I still await a single newspaper article or television editorial piece either slamming the demonization of Western English teachers, or celebrating the UN's verdict. That verdict was pretty recent so you should be able to find an article somewhere online if you do a google search. In the meantime thanks again for that link to Time magazine. 
Honestly, sometimes if you've nothing worthwhile to say it's just better not to post at all.)
Last edited by Smithington on Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Smithington
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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Recently we had the sad example of Donald Trump insulting Mexicans and he's had hell to pay. Individuals and groups from every sector of society (with the exception of the Klan vote) called him to task. Newpapers, churches, labor organizations, civil rights groups, and the media have tore him a new one. All over one or two sentences.
Now think of the equally unjustified hatred thrown at us (legal workers in Korea) by Korea Inc...and the utter and complete silence from every sector within Korea. Not a voice anywhere speaking up in our defence.
The difference between the two reactions is profound and speaks volumes about the distance Korea still needs to travel before it can be considered a mature society and a mature and respectable democracy.
Evolve faster, Korea. |
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