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talentedcrayon
Joined: 27 Aug 2013
Location: Why do you even care?
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 Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2015 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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So, HIV testing aside...
Several of these teachers are claiming that they had permission from immi to work extra classes AND had ethne Ed. Added to their visa as an additional employer. Yet, they were picked up by immi anyway. Apparently, immi would not explain why in a mass meeting that was held in Busan... (I can see no reason why people would be lying and corroborating this on Facebook) Again, when pressed for answers immi would not explain why these teachers were arrested.
So even if you think you are legally working, you CAN according to what's being said, get arrested anyway. Cool stuff. |
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talentedcrayon
Joined: 27 Aug 2013
Location: Why do you even care?
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| Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2015 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Edit: double post |
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matthews_world
Joined: 15 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 12:21 am Post subject: |
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There might be some questions that the company didn't have a proper business license or weren't paying their taxes, thus we might see some future fallout from this. Owner could have given names to protect himself. Everyone can only circumspect about the validity of the work permits on the teachers side.
Keep us posted. |
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Coltronator
Joined: 04 Dec 2013
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| Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 12:54 am Post subject: |
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No, what happened is that E2 people didn't pay attention to their own Visa stipulations which require any second job to also be able to potentially grant an E2 Visa. That would include Private Academies, Public & Private School and Private Kindergartens. Also Key is the requirement of an E2 visa to work at only 1 (in some cases up to 4 or 5) specific location.
They chose to accept work from a Business that they were not eligible to work for. In some particular cases they took work for private classes through Ethne. They failed to follow the terms of their VISA, failed to acquire a private tutors license.
Being ignorant is no excuse to not follow the law. These laws are set up to protect a certain private sector from having non-citizens work in it. A Korean man on an H Visa to work at an Engineering firm in San Jose would not be allowed to open his own Korean Language teaching business on the side without going through the process of getting an investor's Visa. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:23 am Post subject: |
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| Plain Meaning wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| The law is the law, but if someone is going to teach privates, just be smart about it. Its pretty ridiculous. I wish instead of griping about HIV tests and drug screenings that people focused on this. A HIV test doesn't impact me in any real way. The private tutoring law does. I understand the reasons behind it, but there should be a happy medium between preventing the wealthy from having too much of a leg up and enabling easy access to private English tutoring for all. |
Ummmmmm . . . we are focusing on this, the prohibition on part-time teaching (except with registration and specific permission from a primary hagwon) at this very time.
Its terrible for the kids, seems to be the consensus. |
I agree. Its a crap law that has crap results. Anyways, I shouldn't have brought up the HIV stuff.
Yes, they were wrong for breaking the law, but the law is a dumb one. Fine them 250,000 won and move on. |
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Otus
Joined: 09 Feb 2006
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| Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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I read the argument again on the other thread (but I'll post here since this one's staying alive) that those working extra jobs on the E2 keep the pay lower.
This is false and it has always been false because the laws of supply and demand simply do not work in this market. OK, so the hourly rate has scarcely changed from when I first came in '96. It has increased slightly only due to it being more common practice these days for the recruiting firms to tag a little extra on. Teachers still don't usually get much more than 50k/hr, which it was 20 years ago.
I say it has nothing to do with supply and demand because that is all companies will pay for English programs. It wouldn't matter if there were only 10 teachers left in Korea.
Those with a bit of experience will also note how a company will simply drop an English program if they can't get the schedule they want. Seen that happen countless times. Basically, their approach has always been: we want an English program but only at this price and only within our determined schedule. Otherwise, we don't want it.
I have an F6 and pay full tax on any extra work I do, and have no issue regarding whatever work E visas do legally or illegally. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| I agree. Its a crap law that has crap results. Anyways, I shouldn't have brought up the HIV stuff. |
You shouldn't have brought it up because you are monumentally wrong on the issue. It's been explained to you time after time after time how wrong you are and yet you persist in bringing it up often and always with your incorrect commentary on it. The "HIV stuff", as you call it, is contrary to South Korea's obligations under both law and treaty. |
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big_fella1
Joined: 08 Dec 2005
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:13 am Post subject: |
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Ethne Education used to advertise all of their jobs at w35,000 an hour. I wondered who would get in the car and drive to a job, teach for an hour before driving home for that rate. Now I know who: muppets!
The penalty on Ethne is too small. This we didn't know the law is nonsense and irrelevent. Ethne would have been charging companies between w90,000 and w120,000 an hour for a native teacher.
A w20 million fine doesn't even cover the extra profit they made by paying w35k instead of 50k assuming each of the 120 teachers only taught a 12 week course.
As for the E2s, the law is bad, but not as bad as selling yourself and others short by getting out of bed early and working illegally for USD$10 an hour. If you are young and cute and working illegally you should be charging more than a fat old guy like me who has the right visa/citizenship.
Last edited by big_fella1 on Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:15 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:14 am Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| I agree. Its a crap law that has crap results. Anyways, I shouldn't have brought up the HIV stuff. |
You shouldn't have brought it up because you are monumentally wrong on the issue. It's been explained to you time after time after time how wrong you are and yet you persist in bringing it up often and always with your incorrect commentary on it. The "HIV stuff", as you call it, is contrary to South Korea's obligations under both law and treaty. |
Dave's HIV test myths, continuously perpetuated.
1. All foreign teachers must take them. (Wrong, F-visas don't, this includes non-ethnic Koreans)
2. No ethnic Koreans have to take them. (Wrong, Koreans on E-2s have to, some Koreans on F-4s also)
3. Koreans aren't on E-2 visas. Wrong, plenty are.
4. We're smeared as having AIDs and addicted to drugs. If that were true, you wouldn't have hooked up with someone at the club (people generally don't bang random people if they think they have AIDS), and as for drugs a good deal of the assumption that we do drugs is self-inflicted
Its in violation because you are not supposed to discriminate against HIV status, and possibly because it discriminates on the basis of nationality or employment visa-status, however it has been erroneously claimed and repeated that it discriminates on the basis of ethnicity. But yes, you are right, according to the UN, people with HIV and AIDS should be able to freely move and countries shouldn't be able to tell them "no entry" because of that. A policy which I think is boneheaded, but whatever.
Regardless, the labor rules are bunk. I understand Korea's aims and respect their sovereignty in this issue. I just think its a bit overbearing when it comes to casual ESL lessons. At the very least, E-2s should be able to do part-time 1 on 1 licensed tutoring or pour beers on weekends. At the end of the day, economic freedom impacts our daily lives far more than other gripes we bring up regarding regulations. It probably has the most substantively impact by far. After that comes engaging in political advocacy, which seems to be kind of grey here. The authorities don't really seem to care about NETs protesting for Black Lives Matter or Pro-Dokdo rallies or supporting funding for the local park, but organizing for better wages or something like that would probably draw a severe response. The HIV and Drug test complaint is the complaint someone makes because they need something to complain about. If that's the worst you have to deal with, consider yourself lucky.
Anyways, if you look back, I've mentioned this issue before and how economic freedom is the most critical part of gaining subsequent freedoms. With money comes clout. |
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Plain Meaning
Joined: 18 Oct 2014
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:20 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| CentralCali wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| I agree. Its a crap law that has crap results. Anyways, I shouldn't have brought up the HIV stuff. |
You shouldn't have brought it up because you are monumentally wrong on the issue. It's been explained to you time after time after time how wrong you are and yet you persist in bringing it up often and always with your incorrect commentary on it. The "HIV stuff", as you call it, is contrary to South Korea's obligations under both law and treaty. |
Dave's HIV test myths, continuously perpetuated . . . |
Take it to PM, or make another thread.
You can argue about this elsewhere, just not here. |
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coralreefer_1
Joined: 19 Jan 2009
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 8:22 am Post subject: |
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| big_fella1 wrote: |
Ethne Education used to advertise all of their jobs at w35,000 an hour. I wondered who would get in the car and drive to a job, teach for an hour before driving home for that rate. Now I know who: muppets!
The penalty on Ethne is too small. This we didn't know the law is nonsense and irrelevent. Ethne would have been charging companies between w90,000 and w120,000 an hour for a native teacher.
A w20 million fine doesn't even cover the extra profit they made by paying w35k instead of 50k assuming each of the 120 teachers only taught a 12 week course.
As for the E2s, the law is bad, but not as bad as selling yourself and others short by getting out of bed early and working illegally for USD$10 an hour. If you are young and cute and working illegally you should be charging more than a fat old guy like me who has the right visa/citizenship. |
I agree the penalty is too small. With that said, calling people muppets for taking a 35,000won an hour class is a but much isnt it? Maybe those people arent as self-righteous as yourself, and will take money where it comes to them. But let me guess...you would prefer others not take such jobs to preserve your own inflated pay-rate?
I have the F- Visa, and I will happily take a 35/hour class all day and night long if it makes me money. You may be able to pull a higher rate and congrats to you for that, but you are not the trend setting and your attitude makes me want to teach for even 20,000 just to piss mofos like you off/depress your market.
Relax.You will get the money you deserve to get. Other people charging less should not be a concern for you unless you feel they are competition |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| coralreefer_1 wrote: |
| big_fella1 wrote: |
Ethne Education used to advertise all of their jobs at w35,000 an hour. I wondered who would get in the car and drive to a job, teach for an hour before driving home for that rate. Now I know who: muppets!
The penalty on Ethne is too small. This we didn't know the law is nonsense and irrelevent. Ethne would have been charging companies between w90,000 and w120,000 an hour for a native teacher.
A w20 million fine doesn't even cover the extra profit they made by paying w35k instead of 50k assuming each of the 120 teachers only taught a 12 week course.
As for the E2s, the law is bad, but not as bad as selling yourself and others short by getting out of bed early and working illegally for USD$10 an hour. If you are young and cute and working illegally you should be charging more than a fat old guy like me who has the right visa/citizenship. |
I agree the penalty is too small. With that said, calling people muppets for taking a 35,000won an hour class is a but much isnt it? Maybe those people arent as self-righteous as yourself, and will take money where it comes to them. But let me guess...you would prefer others not take such jobs to preserve your own inflated pay-rate? |
Yes, of course he would. But why inflated? Because inflation exists in Korea, but unfortunately, the muppets keep working for less.
| coralreefer_1 wrote: |
I have the F- Visa, and I will happily take a 35/hour class all day and night long if it makes me money. You may be able to pull a higher rate and congrats to you for that, but you are not the trend setting and your attitude makes me want to teach for even 20,000 just to piss mofos like you off/depress your market. |
Talking about being self-righteous...by example?
| coralreefer_1 wrote: |
Relax.You will get the money you deserve to get. Other people charging less should not be a concern for you unless you feel they are competition |
This is not true. People don't get what they deserve. They get what the market is being forced to pay. Some might suggest that is the very reason why minimum wage laws exist...to keep the muppets from paying for the permission to work. |
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Coltronator
Joined: 04 Dec 2013
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 12:28 am Post subject: |
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| Yeah that group of people who did get Ethne added to their Visa should not be at fault. They did their due diligence and that is Immi's fault. They are the subset who have a good case if they take it that way. |
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coralreefer_1
Joined: 19 Jan 2009
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 4:54 am Post subject: |
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| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| coralreefer_1 wrote: |
| big_fella1 wrote: |
Ethne Education used to advertise all of their jobs at w35,000 an hour. I wondered who would get in the car and drive to a job, teach for an hour before driving home for that rate. Now I know who: muppets!
The penalty on Ethne is too small. This we didn't know the law is nonsense and irrelevent. Ethne would have been charging companies between w90,000 and w120,000 an hour for a native teacher.
A w20 million fine doesn't even cover the extra profit they made by paying w35k instead of 50k assuming each of the 120 teachers only taught a 12 week course.
As for the E2s, the law is bad, but not as bad as selling yourself and others short by getting out of bed early and working illegally for USD$10 an hour. If you are young and cute and working illegally you should be charging more than a fat old guy like me who has the right visa/citizenship. |
I agree the penalty is too small. With that said, calling people muppets for taking a 35,000won an hour class is a but much isnt it? Maybe those people arent as self-righteous as yourself, and will take money where it comes to them. But let me guess...you would prefer others not take such jobs to preserve your own inflated pay-rate? |
Yes, of course he would. But why inflated? Because inflation exists in Korea, but unfortunately, the muppets keep working for less.
| coralreefer_1 wrote: |
I have the F- Visa, and I will happily take a 35/hour class all day and night long if it makes me money. You may be able to pull a higher rate and congrats to you for that, but you are not the trend setting and your attitude makes me want to teach for even 20,000 just to piss mofos like you off/depress your market. |
Talking about being self-righteous...by example?
| coralreefer_1 wrote: |
Relax.You will get the money you deserve to get. Other people charging less should not be a concern for you unless you feel they are competition |
This is not true. People don't get what they deserve. They get what the market is being forced to pay. Some might suggest that is the very reason why minimum wage laws exist...to keep the muppets from paying for the permission to work. |
In the end, if one can pull more..they will get it. If X cant pull more because Y is working for less, it is a testament that X either (a) not worth the high price (if they were, they would COMMAND and get it regardless of Y's rate) or (b) X expects or inflates their own value refusing to see that the market has turned...and laments about Y getting classes that actually pay money while X moans with only 1-2 classes while Y has 9 classes.
Its not really that hard of a concept to grasp. People charge for their time what they feel their time is worth. Either they get it...or they dont.
However the logic that they CANT get it because others are charging less goes against the free market that has been spoken of here in this thread.
If you dont want to work for 35/hour. cool. Anyone who feels they can and can get more will get it if the consumer feels they are worth it. However the tone lately is that most are not worth that. So you can either sit back and lament on others working for less as the reason you cant get 70/hour...or you can play the game. If you cant get 70, then maybe the consumer doesn't value what you have to offer (as compared to what a 35/hour tutor can give) is worth the extra money. Again, command your income! Otherwise, noone has a leg to stand on in terms of what other people are charging and whining about it. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Plain Meaning wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| CentralCali wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| I agree. Its a crap law that has crap results. Anyways, I shouldn't have brought up the HIV stuff. |
You shouldn't have brought it up because you are monumentally wrong on the issue. It's been explained to you time after time after time how wrong you are and yet you persist in bringing it up often and always with your incorrect commentary on it. The "HIV stuff", as you call it, is contrary to South Korea's obligations under both law and treaty. |
Dave's HIV test myths, continuously perpetuated . . . |
Take it to PM, or make another thread.
You can argue about this elsewhere, just not here. |
What difference would that make? SR almost always trashes a thread with his completely dishonest take on that issue. What he posted above is the most egregious example yet. |
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