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Fallacy
Joined: 29 Jun 2015
Location: ex-ROK
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 Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:20 am Post subject: RE: Anyone feel like a dummy at 2.0/m? |
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| GENO123 wrote: |
| ESL in Korea = worst of all worlds. |
Hyperbole. Worst? No. Bad? Sure. Compared to ALL other similar opportunities in the world?! Be fair. Everything else stated was not wildly innaccurate, so strike this one over-reaching statement, and leave it at that. |
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JohnML
Joined: 05 Jul 2015
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 5:29 am Post subject: |
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| schwa wrote: |
Correct me if I'm wrong but I get the impression standard entry level wages & benefits for young minimally qualified native english efl teachers in much of SE Asia, parts of China, eastern Europe (maybe even some EU countries), Central Asia, Central & South America, Turkey, Russia, etc, are half or less what Korea is currently offering.
The hardships of living in some of those countries plus scant pay might make Korea's cultural challenges seem mild, yet untold thousands still take those jobs.
Not sure what my point is or if I even have one, just tossing that into the conversation. |
SE parts of asia such as Taiwan/Vietnam, correct. Parts of China and by this I mean extremely popular parts, where people take pay cuts to live such as yunnan. Yes. Big cities in china/some smaller cities with not many people - nah. Entry level private schools in big cities are about 1.8 (same as Korea) but you work less. 20 teaching hours and no office hours as standard.
Outside of the big cities 1.3 million is a common starting wage (low yes) but it's around 12-16 teaching hours with 0 office hours. It's a much better life but the money still isn't great (as you've said). Overall China is slightly better than Korea, IMO and you get treated better. However central asia is where the salaries are still great; Tajikistan, Kazakhstan etc... all pay really well. The middle east being the best place to work but higher requirements.
There is one benefit of working in Korea, it's a beautiful country. |
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GENO123
Joined: 28 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:25 pm Post subject: Re: RE: Anyone feel like a dummy at 2.0/m? |
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| Fallacy wrote: |
| GENO123 wrote: |
| ESL in Korea = worst of all worlds. |
Hyperbole. Worst? No. Bad? Sure. Compared to ALL other similar opportunities in the world?! Be fair. Everything else stated was not wildly innaccurate, so strike this one over-reaching statement, and leave it at that. |
Esl korea is a twisted combination of a low salary ,relatively high living costs , bad treatment and low upside. With esl korea you get them all. Not hyperbole. Esl korea is bottom of the barrel & should be written off . Especially for someone new.
It is why they need those sorry excuses for wearing human skin (aka. recruiters) to deceive people into going.
Last edited by GENO123 on Sun Oct 11, 2015 6:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Fallacy
Joined: 29 Jun 2015
Location: ex-ROK
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 6:49 pm Post subject: RE: Anyone feel like a dummy at 2.0/m? |
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| GENO123 wrote: |
| Fallacy wrote: |
| GENO123 wrote: |
| ESL in Korea = worst of all worlds. |
Hyperbole. Worst? No. Bad? Sure. Compared to ALL other similar opportunities in the world?! Be fair. Everything else stated was not wildly innaccurate, so strike this one over-reaching statement, and leave it at that. |
combination of a low salary, relatively high living costs, bad treatment and low upside. Especially for someone new. |
Agreed.
| GENO123 wrote: |
| bottom of the barrel |
No. |
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GENO123
Joined: 28 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 6:52 pm Post subject: Re: RE: Anyone feel like a dummy at 2.0/m? |
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| Fallacy wrote: |
| GENO123 wrote: |
| Fallacy wrote: |
| GENO123 wrote: |
| ESL in Korea = worst of all worlds. |
Hyperbole. Worst? No. Bad? Sure. Compared to ALL other similar opportunities in the world?! Be fair. Everything else stated was not wildly innaccurate, so strike this one over-reaching statement, and leave it at that. |
combination of a low salary, relatively high living costs, bad treatment and low upside. Especially for someone new. |
Agreed.
| GENO123 wrote: |
| bottom of the barrel |
No. |
While other places have drawbacks ESL Korea is where you get the all in one combination of the above. Overall esl Korea is far worse than simple lame. That is why it gets one "the worst of all worlds". Esl Korea doesn't have a single redeeming quality. |
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Fallacy
Joined: 29 Jun 2015
Location: ex-ROK
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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| The point is clear without the hyperbole. Been to Zimbabwe for teaching EFL lately? Right. Anything else to add other than banging this drum? Cheerleaders for TEFL ROK are as dismissable as cheerleaders for anti-TEFL ROK. Again: your point has been made. Set and match. The game has finished. Raise the trophy, wave to the crowds, and walk off the court. |
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JohnML
Joined: 05 Jul 2015
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| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 4:59 am Post subject: |
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| Fallacy wrote: |
| The point is clear without the hyperbole. Been to Zimbabwe for teaching EFL lately? Right. Anything else to add other than banging this drum? Cheerleaders for TEFL ROK are as dismissable as cheerleaders for anti-TEFL ROK. Again: your point has been made. Set and match. The game has finished. Raise the trophy, wave to the crowds, and walk off the court. |
Yeah I'd have to agree with this. The problem is and it's just the truth ESL doesn't pay a whole lot except in a few specific countries like Oman, Syria... etc... Nowhere in east asia I'm aware of pays that much; certainly not Thailand, China, Japan, Vietnam, Cambodia Taiwan, Singapore. Korea is actually at the upper end of east asian countries to TEFL! Overall it's probably in the upper middle globally, it ain't too bad. It's just the industry isn't so lucrative.
Heck even the specialized English teachers don't earn that much, it's all the businessmen and professional expats who are earning loads in east asia, google will show you this. So to say Korea sucks... compared to working an average graduate job in the US, yeah by miles. Compared to ESL globally, no it's pretty good. China is better (slightly) but that doesn't mean Korea is terrible.
A lot of people on here spew numbers and opinions w/o backing stuff up and I'm not taking a dig at anyone in particular. |
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PedanticGiraffe
Joined: 14 Jul 2015
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| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 6:08 am Post subject: Re: RE: Anyone feel like a dummy at 2.0/m? |
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| GENO123 wrote: |
Esl korea is a twisted combination of a low salary ,relatively high living costs |
Relative to what? Have you taught in Europe? You get paid peanuts and many of the countries have some of the highest living costs in the world.
I don't think TEFL is a viable career unless you're running a school, if I'm honest. It's a chance to travel and see the world, whilst doing a really awesome job. |
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GENO123
Joined: 28 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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| JohnML wrote: |
| Fallacy wrote: |
| The point is clear without the hyperbole. Been to Zimbabwe for teaching EFL lately? Right. Anything else to add other than banging this drum? Cheerleaders for TEFL ROK are as dismissable as cheerleaders for anti-TEFL ROK. Again: your point has been made. Set and match. The game has finished. Raise the trophy, wave to the crowds, and walk off the court. |
Yeah I'd have to agree with this. The problem is and it's just the truth ESL doesn't pay a whole lot except in a few specific countries like Oman, Syria... etc... Nowhere in east asia I'm aware of pays that much; certainly not Thailand, China, Japan, Vietnam, Cambodia Taiwan, Singapore. Korea is actually at the upper end of east asian countries to TEFL! Overall it's probably in the upper middle globally, it ain't too bad. It's just the industry isn't so lucrative.
Heck even the specialized English teachers don't earn that much, it's all the businessmen and professional expats who are earning loads in east asia, google will show you this. So to say Korea sucks... compared to working an average graduate job in the US, yeah by miles. Compared to ESL globally, no it's pretty good. China is better (slightly) but that doesn't mean Korea is terrible.
A lot of people on here spew numbers and opinions w/o backing stuff up and I'm not taking a dig at anyone in particular. |
EFL Korea has gotten (a lo0) worse from the time you left.
As for ESL globally money isn't everything there are countries that pay less but they treat you a lot better. Korea ESL is a combination of a mediocre salary and bad treatment. When you get involved in ESL Korea you get both.
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Relative to what? Have you taught in Europe? You get paid peanuts and many of the countries have some of the highest living costs in the world.
I don't think TEFL is a viable career unless you're running a school, if I'm honest. It's a chance to travel and see the world, whilst doing a really awesome job. |
It is not an awesome job if your employer is no good. As I said with ESL Korea you get both - a low salary and most likely a bad employer.
One way ticket. |
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Mr. Pink
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Location: China
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| Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:57 am Post subject: |
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| JohnML wrote: |
| Mr. Pink wrote: |
| Fallacy wrote: |
| Agreed. In 2015, I would not come here to earn, or stay here if I earned, anything less than 3.0 per month. Absolute minimum for me. |
I left Korea 10 years ago and I was making over 3mil a month, and I had around 10 weeks of paid vacation included in that.
I really feel sorry for people that feel they have no choice. Really, China is a way better choice imo.
Especially if you speak a bit of Korean already, come to a city with a large Korean population. You can make a bundle doing privates.
For new grads, if they come and learn a bit of Chinese and can get the rich Chinese market for tutoring...man there are so many rich Chinese willing to pay for English lessons.
Anyways, those who are doing 2mil a month or less, you are wasting your time. |
China is definitely better but it's going down too because everyone is doing exactly as you suggested (you can see many people on these forums have done so). The large cities used to pay well but now it's kindof meh, even for privates. The smaller destinations are mostly poor folk and i've seen private tuition hitting about 23,000 won/h average. 30,000 upper end. The average wage is like 2.5 million in the bigger cities and sub 2.0 elsewhere. You probably will be working less though! Put it this way, I know people working in China with a degree for 900,000 won/20 teaching hours.
Overall, I think it's about the same as Korea in the money department the only difference being you have the opportunity to work much less. There are plenty of private schools with who give you a summer/winter vacation but they are sly, usually it's they pay you 20% of your wage so you are forced to do private tuition. The best way to make money in China by far if you aren't a professional is to hit a new market. On the other hand, the real way to make cash in teaching English is the middle east quite honestly because most people don't want to go there. |
I don't where those numbers come from. I am not in ESL, but a few I've known have usually been around 20000RMB a month salary including housing. That's not too bad when I compare it to what I make and all the degrees and certs I have. This is in the Tianjin area. I know a guy who was making similar in Shanghai working at a school with an international division but he was doing ESL in there.
The cost overall IMO is much lower in China than Korea, so depending on where you are and how much you want to eat like a local, you can save well...much better than Korea considering Korea's salaries are at the same point they were 15+ years ago.
Also in China you can find privates for 250-300RMB an hour which is better than what you quoted. When I used to do them I charged 300RMB an hour. I stopped doing them years ago...my regular job is too much. However, if I was on 20hrs a week or less like a lot of foreigners...also a lot of people I work with do privates on the side for 250RMB an hour...that's pretty easy money and unlike Korea the government isn't kicking down doors and looking to deport you for breaking the visa law. |
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JohnML
Joined: 05 Jul 2015
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| Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 7:52 am Post subject: |
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| Mr. Pink wrote: |
| JohnML wrote: |
| Mr. Pink wrote: |
| Fallacy wrote: |
| Agreed. In 2015, I would not come here to earn, or stay here if I earned, anything less than 3.0 per month. Absolute minimum for me. |
I left Korea 10 years ago and I was making over 3mil a month, and I had around 10 weeks of paid vacation included in that.
I really feel sorry for people that feel they have no choice. Really, China is a way better choice imo.
Especially if you speak a bit of Korean already, come to a city with a large Korean population. You can make a bundle doing privates.
For new grads, if they come and learn a bit of Chinese and can get the rich Chinese market for tutoring...man there are so many rich Chinese willing to pay for English lessons.
Anyways, those who are doing 2mil a month or less, you are wasting your time. |
China is definitely better but it's going down too because everyone is doing exactly as you suggested (you can see many people on these forums have done so). The large cities used to pay well but now it's kindof meh, even for privates. The smaller destinations are mostly poor folk and i've seen private tuition hitting about 23,000 won/h average. 30,000 upper end. The average wage is like 2.5 million in the bigger cities and sub 2.0 elsewhere. You probably will be working less though! Put it this way, I know people working in China with a degree for 900,000 won/20 teaching hours.
Overall, I think it's about the same as Korea in the money department the only difference being you have the opportunity to work much less. There are plenty of private schools with who give you a summer/winter vacation but they are sly, usually it's they pay you 20% of your wage so you are forced to do private tuition. The best way to make money in China by far if you aren't a professional is to hit a new market. On the other hand, the real way to make cash in teaching English is the middle east quite honestly because most people don't want to go there. |
I don't where those numbers come from. I am not in ESL, but a few I've known have usually been around 20000RMB a month salary including housing. That's not too bad when I compare it to what I make and all the degrees and certs I have. This is in the Tianjin area. I know a guy who was making similar in Shanghai working at a school with an international division but he was doing ESL in there.
The cost overall IMO is much lower in China than Korea, so depending on where you are and how much you want to eat like a local, you can save well...much better than Korea considering Korea's salaries are at the same point they were 15+ years ago.
Also in China you can find privates for 250-300RMB an hour which is better than what you quoted. When I used to do them I charged 300RMB an hour. I stopped doing them years ago...my regular job is too much. However, if I was on 20hrs a week or less like a lot of foreigners...also a lot of people I work with do privates on the side for 250RMB an hour...that's pretty easy money and unlike Korea the government isn't kicking down doors and looking to deport you for breaking the visa law. |
Yeah there are a few people on 20,000 with tons of experience and qualifications there are people on 3-4mil in Korea also not common. It's like saying I know people on 5000 a month with degrees and I do! I know more on 5000 than 18000 even. The fact is we are talking averages.
From experience and job searching the average is 10,000 and 13,000 in big cities and the average private tuition is 150. The real money is in professional work the average non tefl expat is earning about 1 millions year. Average, average! Tefl sucks in China too, even the international schools offer weak salaries for subjects compared to say finance, tech or consultancy, engineering.
Statistics everywhere have shown this, Google will show it and my experience has show it. The only jobs you see at 20k require an international teacher qualification. Experience in the west and in a subject, not English! I've never met someone who earns half of what a local professional makes in tefl. Yet people deny it all the time, it gets old. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 7:53 am Post subject: |
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| Mr. Pink wrote: |
I don't where those numbers come from. I am not in ESL, but a few I've known have usually been around 20000RMB a month salary including housing....
unlike Korea the government isn't kicking down doors and looking to deport you for breaking the visa law. |
Just two points I wanted to comment on. 20,000 or more are generally for the international schools in China...you need to be licensed back in your home country to teach at these places. Just having a B.A. and/or TESOL certificate isn't going to cut it. Yes, I know you didn't say that...just clarifying the situation for anyone thinking of making the jump. 9000-14,000 RMB is more realistic if one is thinking of working at the big chain private schools such as Disney English or public schools.
(EDIT: I see the poster above got this point in about a moment before I posted...oh well looks like I'm not the only one who noticed this)
As for the second point that is not true anymore
From 2013
http://www.englishpost.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=255
From 2014
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/china-expat-forum-expats-living-china/464018-cftu-confirms-1-600-china-foreign-teachers-deported-2014-so-far.html
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| "To date, 1,637 expats have been expelled from China in 2014, and 1,237 of these have been foreign teachers. 1,015 were found working on L, F, and X visas, fined an average of $1,800 and deported with three year reentry bans" |
Here's another case from this year (2015)
http://www.china.org.cn/china/2015-08/24/content_36401406.htm |
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trueblue
Joined: 15 Jun 2014
Location: In between the lines
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| Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
It is not an awesome job if your employer is no good. As I said with ESL Korea you get both - a low salary and most likely a bad employer. |
Among other things, I wonder if Korea realizes how bad it sucks in this department.
One way ticket?
Reimbursed (good luck)?
Pack sand. |
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JohnML
Joined: 05 Jul 2015
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| Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2015 5:21 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Mr. Pink wrote: |
I don't where those numbers come from. I am not in ESL, but a few I've known have usually been around 20000RMB a month salary including housing....
unlike Korea the government isn't kicking down doors and looking to deport you for breaking the visa law. |
Just two points I wanted to comment on. 20,000 or more are generally for the international schools in China...you need to be licensed back in your home country to teach at these places. Just having a B.A. and/or TESOL certificate isn't going to cut it. Yes, I know you didn't say that...just clarifying the situation for anyone thinking of making the jump. 9000-14,000 RMB is more realistic if one is thinking of working at the big chain private schools such as Disney English or public schools.
(EDIT: I see the poster above got this point in about a moment before I posted...oh well looks like I'm not the only one who noticed this)
As for the second point that is not true anymore
From 2013
http://www.englishpost.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=255
From 2014
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/china-expat-forum-expats-living-china/464018-cftu-confirms-1-600-china-foreign-teachers-deported-2014-so-far.html
| Quote: |
| "To date, 1,637 expats have been expelled from China in 2014, and 1,237 of these have been foreign teachers. 1,015 were found working on L, F, and X visas, fined an average of $1,800 and deported with three year reentry bans" |
Here's another case from this year (2015)
http://www.china.org.cn/china/2015-08/24/content_36401406.htm |
You could dissect the post further there are also many things that are misleading about it, he quoted an international school salary in a city like Shanghai, then said China is much cheaper to live... Shanghai is almost as expensive as Korea. Infact unless we are talking about Seoul you will likely pay more in Shanghai because the rent is more expensive even though public transport etc is slightly less. In these cities the average private tuition's about 150, in smaller cities closer to 100. You can sometimes rarely find 200-250 but they don't book many lessons and often they go as quickly as they came.
Even international teachers are only given basic compensation to find a low tier apartment in large cities. Normal TEFL folks are given enough to find shared accommodation, if they want their own place they have to cover it with their salary. It's funny he's also talking about tianjin because I know a bachelors holder working there for 4,000 a month (at least before the explosion he was). Also I've seen someone be deported for working at a school without a visa because a competing local school reported him. So that also happens and the school got a measly fine for their wrong doing.
Meanwhile in the centre of Shanghai you get experienced local professionals regularly earning 300-400,000 a year without their bonuses, not even international teachers make that for the same hours. Then a step up is the foreign expats, who are regularly earning 1 million a year with western holidays and annual leave and pensions. These are fair comparisons of medians and I've shown the data here before and I can source it again if anyone wants to see the truth. Also have experience of it firsthand. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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Well I figured two things were enough of a critique for now:)...However I do want to point out one thing further (from your post this time)
| Quote: |
| Even international teachers are only given basic compensation to find a low tier apartment in large cities. Normal TEFL folks are given enough to find shared accommodation, if they want their own place they have to cover it with their salary |
This may be the case in large cities such as Beijing and Shanghai...but in most places/small cities...free accommodation seems to be the norm now...at least in the ads I have seen. This is also the case in my personal situation. I live in a nice large apartment which includes a living room, bed room, kitchen and bathroom/laundry area. Sure, it's not the newest place but both the rent and utilities (including A/C and heating) are covered by the school.
But back to the point...yes ESL (with the exception of a few here and there) is not a well-paid gig. On the other hand one doesn't generally get into ESL teaching with the idea of becoming rich. |
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