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trueblue
Joined: 15 Jun 2014
Location: In between the lines
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Plain Meaning
Joined: 18 Oct 2014
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 Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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The conceit and fear-mongering is ridiculous. The Supreme Court has clarified that the Second Amendment protects against Federal confiscation of weaponry and is further incorporated to the States. Any buyback program, local, state, or national would have to be optional, or mandatory only with regard to very high-powered weapons (i.e. those not protected under the Second Amendment). In addition, there are the practical difficulties Clinton speaks of; namely that the NRA exploits this kind of fear to ratchet up firearms sales every time children die in those disgracefully common school shootings.
In short, trueblue, delete your account. |
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Swartz
Joined: 19 Dec 2014
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| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2015 4:32 am Post subject: |
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| Plain Meaning wrote: |
| In short, trueblue, delete your account. |
One might recommend you do the same, instead of trying to shut down conversations by smugly labeling others as fear-mongers and lecturing those who don’t share your illogical trust in the colossal police state and its self-declared intentions as proposed by paranoid, corrupt bureaucrats who organize bloody atrocities around the globe on a daily basis then ship the leftovers back to our own neighborhoods. |
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Coltronator
Joined: 04 Dec 2013
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| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2015 4:33 am Post subject: |
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| Ben Carson is that you? |
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Plain Meaning
Joined: 18 Oct 2014
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| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2015 5:50 am Post subject: |
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| Swartz wrote: |
| Plain Meaning wrote: |
| In short, trueblue, delete your account. |
One might recommend you do the same |
Once again, you fail to produce an argument. You attempt to steer the conversation back to your obsession, but this topic is about school shootings and gun control.
Here's my argument:
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| The conceit and fear-mongering is ridiculous. The Supreme Court has clarified that the Second Amendment protects against Federal confiscation of weaponry and is further incorporated to the States. Any buyback program, local, state, or national would have to be optional, or mandatory only with regard to very high-powered weapons (i.e. those not protected under the Second Amendment). In addition, there are the practical difficulties Clinton speaks of; namely that the NRA exploits this kind of fear to ratchet up firearms sales every time children die in those disgracefully common school shootings. |
Do try to make your own. |
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trueblue
Joined: 15 Jun 2014
Location: In between the lines
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| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2015 7:22 am Post subject: |
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Wow PM, I did not realize that government should always be considered trustworthy.
Swartz HAS produced excellent points and narratives. But like SR, you keep your head in the "progressive" sand. Someone could tell you "PM, the sky is blue", but you would sit there and deny it, claiming there is no argument to justify such a claim. Then, you might pull a Leon and discredit the source, despite being on target.
And, this topic is not about school shootings, as you slyly suggested. Basically, if you want to speak a lack of arguements, all you did was sidestep the article itself and launch a few attacks.
More on the "fear mongering"
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2015/10/court_decision_paves_the_way_for_australianstyle_gun_ban.html
Last edited by trueblue on Sat Oct 24, 2015 9:06 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Coltronator
Joined: 04 Dec 2013
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| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2015 7:54 am Post subject: |
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| Paves way for 80% reduction in gun violence and 100% elimination of mass shootings. Man those asses are going to ruin everything. How can I sell my guns and make a living if no one needs a gun to defend themselves with anymore. Also my wife will be fired from her job cause they'll downsize at the ambulanceatorium. Jeez no one can catch a break. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2015 8:38 am Post subject: |
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| If this is the editorial standards of the American Thinker, then they must let anybody who wants to write there. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2015 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| If this is the editorial standards of the American Thinker, then they must let anybody who wants to write there. |
Before reading the article, my guess was that it would engage in a kind conscious anti-intellectualism, and that was what you were criticizing. But then I actually read it, and the fellow randomly brings up the Ancient Greeks in an article on gun control! What the Hell? And name-dropping Socrates in particular is wildly inappropriate. He moans:
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| In Socrates' lifetime, the disarming of the Athenian population by the Thirty Tyrants, in 404 B.C., ended in a violent revolt, and the restoration of democracy in 403 B.C. In our late modernity, by contrast, the heirs to Athens' civilizational legacy face their emasculation with, "Well, I hate to give up my target-shooting pistols, but after all, the law's the law." |
But Socrates (at least the Socrates of Plato, which is evidently treated as the reality here, given the Thrasymachus of Plato is treated likewise) was a huge proponent of law and following it, and anecdotally, even when confronted with a lawless order from a tyrant (to go, help round up some fellow*, and bring him in to be killed), he simply refused to participate and went home. Not exactly how one imagines Mr. Jonescu here advising his compatriots to deal with their "emasculation." The average modern, American conservative probably has more in common with Plato's caricature of Thrasymachus than with Socrates. Anti-intellectualism is bad enough, but this is bizarre, fun-house-mirror intellectualism.
*I had forgotten the guys' name, but looking it up now, it turns out it was Leon. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2015 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
*I had forgotten the guys' name, but looking it up now, it turns out it was Leon. |
Interesting, this is the first time I've seen my name in an ancient context, and Greek no less. I had always thought the name had its origins in Spanish. But yeah, it was a weird article, and seems more like a random blog post than something that should be published in any self-respecting outlet. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 6:28 am Post subject: |
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| Speaking of magazines with 'American' in their title and their editors, one that always impressed me was the American Conservative (Pat Buchanan's mag) and how in 2004 their editorial staff was so divided over the presidential election that they each gave endorsements to Kerry, Bush, Nader, and I think 3 other 3rd party candidates (Reform, Libertarian and one other I think). It was a fine example of being open-minded about the nature of conservatism in a difficult election. |
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Plain Meaning
Joined: 18 Oct 2014
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 8:03 am Post subject: |
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| trueblue wrote: |
| Wow PM, I did not realize that government should always be considered trustworthy. |
Where did I say that government should always be considered trustworthy. Please show me that post. I would like to remonstrate with myself if I had said that. I mean, surely you aren't erecting a strawman. I must have said this at some point, right?
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| But like SR, you keep your head in the "progressive" sand. |
Steelrails is probably not a progressive. You can ask him yourself. I doubt he identifies as progressive.
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| Someone could tell you "PM, the sky is blue", but you would sit there and deny it, claiming there is no argument to justify such a claim. |
*looks outside*
The sky is black.
Seriously, guys, this is the dumbest expression. Is the sky not grey when it is overcast and black when it is night?
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And, this topic is not about school shootings, as you slyly suggested. Basically, if you want to speak a lack of arguements, all you did was sidestep the article itself and launch a few attacks. |
I am so sorry. I thought this was about gun control, and so I mentioned the motivating logic behind gun control; little children are being shot while they are at school, and people want that to stop. Australia stopped it, by the way.
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| More on the "fear mongering." |
Yes, it is fear-mongering. Please reconcile the claim that they will take all the firearms away with the Supreme Court precedent of the last decade.
I will wait. |
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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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Two terms of a liberal President. Many mass shootings. Still no gun control.
Next. |
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Swartz
Joined: 19 Dec 2014
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| the American Conservative (Pat Buchanan's mag) |
Not interacting here, just have to say that the American Conservative (or Cuckservative as it’s commonly referred to) was seized by socialists and neocons long ago and is generally not worth reading. Having said that, Pat Buchanan is a hero and I visit from time to time to read Philip Giraldi’s articles. Giraldi is a former CIA operative who gives great insights into the intelligence community and isn’t afraid to speak about the main issue(s) plaguing the US. |
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Plain Meaning
Joined: 18 Oct 2014
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 3:36 am Post subject: |
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So with the amazing Google at my disposal, I went back and located some of Dave's previous gun threads. By the way, trueblue, before ranting about so-and-so having a position simply because they're progressive, you might want to check their posting history on the subject.
http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=221846&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=215470&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=233059&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
At any rate, here is a gem I found by Fox.
http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=221846&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=95
| Fox wrote: |
Now, as far as the Supreme Court goes, let's look at some citations:
From Heller and MacDonald:
"The signification attributed to the term Militia appears from the debates in the Convention, the history and legislation of Colonies and States, and the writings of approved commentators. These show plainly enough that the Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. 'A body of citizens enrolled for military discipline.' And further, that ordinarily when called for service these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time."
In short, your gun isn't for you to go shoot at militia members while living out your little revolutionary fantasy. Your gun is so that you can be a militia member.
Robertson vs. Baldwin:
"The law is perfectly well settled that the first ten amendments to the Constitution, commonly known as the "Bill of Rights," were not intended to lay down any novel principles of government, but simply to embody certain guaranties and immunities which we had inherited from our English ancestors, and which had, from time immemorial, been subject to certain well recognized exceptions arising from the necessities of the case. In incorporating these principles into the fundamental law, there was no intention of disregarding the exceptions, which continued to be recognized as if they had been formally expressed. Thus, the freedom of speech and of the press (Art. I) does not permit the publication of libels, blasphemous or indecent articles, or other publications injurious to public morals or private reputation; the right of the people to keep and bear arms (Art. II) is not infringed by laws prohibiting the carrying of concealed weapons"
United States vs. Miller:
"In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a 'shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length' at this time has some reasonable relationship to any preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense"
Nothing in the Second Amendment ensures your right to 100 round clips and assault weapons. It grants you the right to bear unspecified arms towards a specified end. You and some magician might disagree with this, but the Supreme Court is another matter. Your entire case seems to rest upon an opinion written by Antonin Scalia, a man who is completely happy to ignore judicial precedent and act as an activist for his own personal causes, serving on a court with several other like-minded individuals. It was another one of those ridiculous 5-4 cases, with the dissent mirroring the historic opinion that the first half of the Second Amendment actually had some sort of functional meaning. Importantly, though, even Scalia said:
"Although we do not undertake an exhaustive historical analysis today of the full scope of the Second Amendment, nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms." |
Look at that summary of the law. Not too shabby! |
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