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edwardcatflap

Joined: 22 Mar 2009

Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 8:14 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Also I addressed the point (very clearly) of whether or not I think your friend is lying in two separate posts above, read them.

Sorry I read all your posts above and couldn't find the one where you show that it's impossible for Hong Kong NET teachers to earn the kind of salary that guy was talking about. Can you post the link that disproves it again?

World Traveler

Joined: 29 May 2009

Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2015 12:49 am Post subject:

Lastest uni ad (Daegu university):

Quote:

All qualifications must be met at the time of application. We will only be responding to applicants being considered for an interview. If you do not meet the minimum requirements, please do not apply!

Minimum Qualifications:
B.A. in any subject + 4 years university teaching experience
M.A. in any subject + 2 years university teaching experience
PhD

***Please note that experience earned in a public school or in an academy in Korea is not counted.
***Teaching experience earned concurrently with your degree is not counted.

Public school teaching experience earned outside Korea is accepted for certified teachers and counted at a rate of 1 year = .5 years of university experience.

Applicants who fail to meet these basic requirements will not be considered. All qualifications must be completed at the time of application.

Quote:

Annual Salary:
B.A.: 26,000,000 Korean won (~1.8 million per month after deductions)
M.A.: 28,000,000 Korean won (~2.0 million per month after deductions)
PhD: 31,000,000 Korean won (~2.2 million per month after deductions)

Converted to USD:
BA: $19,009
MA: $21,120
PhD: $23,232

Fallacy

Joined: 29 Jun 2015
Location: ex-ROK

Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2015 2:34 am Post subject: RE: University Hiring Season

World Traveler referenced above the latest ad on Dave's and focused on the low salary. Setting aside the salary and benefits for a moment, which are probably enough reason to put off many from applying, looking at the other contents highlighted below illustrate precisely what I outlined earlier in this thread:

Quote:

Preference will be given to applicants available for an in-person interview. Preference will be given to applicants residing in Korea and willing to live off campus.

The in-country advantage once again. Next, minimum qualifications:

Quote:

B.A. in any subject + 4 years university teaching experience (or MA + 2). Please note that experience earned in a public school or in an academy in Korea is not counted. Teaching experience earned concurrently with your degree is not counted. Public school teaching experience earned outside Korea is accepted for certified teachers and counted at a rate of 1 year = .5 years of university experience. All qualifications must be met at the time of application. If you do not meet the minimum requirements, please do not apply!

The experienced professional advantage once again. This is a very narrowly targeted advertisement, and it should be very clear who they are trying to screen out with these items.

denverdeath

Joined: 21 May 2005
Location: Boo-sahn

Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2015 6:18 am Post subject:

Well, I couldn't be much [Mod Edit] to look at the details of THAT taegu university one! Hope that money is for 6-7 hours weekly??!!!??

JohnML

Joined: 05 Jul 2015

Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2015 6:25 am Post subject: Re: RE: University Hiring Season

edwardcatflap wrote:

Quote:

Also I addressed the point (very clearly) of whether or not I think your friend is lying in two separate posts above, read them.

I was talking about in mainland China, in HK the average is higher but it's still much lower than 70,000 RMB more like 20,000 RMB and going up to 37000 rmb (top end). So earning twice the high end is still extremely, extremely unlikely but possible. In mainland China not a hope in hell.

Regardless most people aren't even at the top end, nevermind twice that. This guy would be in a far different salary range from 99.9% of NET teachers, so without knowing your friend or any info about him but knowing quite a lot having been in the industry about how many people lie about their salary... I would have to say, yes I think he's lying. The odds are probably in favour of that.

Meanwhile in other industries people are making 50,000 HKD as standard. I was at a friends apartment in Shanghai about a month or two ago, finance expert. His salary was 300,000 RMB a month. You could tell, easily it was this. He had an amazing apartment and I didn't doubt it for a second. That's a high end wage for a finance expat, so I wouldn't claim most people are going to earn it. I'd still say it was very very unlikely until I had seen proof of it.

However in saying that the evidence does support that the banking sector in China gets on average 1 mil/year salaries and can cap out about 2.5 million RMB/year so he's not so far off the top end. Whilst the average ESL is about 100-120,000 RMB a year. High ends beng 200,000-300,000. Even the people arguing in support of ESL understand this and realize you are talking crap, you don't seem to recognize this.

I've bolded my answer to your question, so you don't miss the answer again. Now post counter responses to the links I posted in the thread.

Fallacy wrote:

Quote:

Preference will be given to applicants available for an in-person interview. Preference will be given to applicants residing in Korea and willing to live off campus.

The in-country advantage once again. Next, minimum qualifications:

Quote:

The experienced professional advantage once again. This is a very narrowly targeted advertisement, and it should be very clear who they are trying to screen out with these items.

I would have to agree with this $23,000 for a PHd... seems a bit lower than expected. I would have expected it to be around $30,000. Still the fact these types of advertisements exist and i'll bet you get people taking up these offers kindof shows the state of the industry. Actually in thinking of it, these salaries make a little sense.

1.8 million is the entry level for BA holders (this is a very normal salary in 2015 with no experience). The 2.2 mil for a PhD is probably PhD students with no further experience or no ALT experience. When you put it that way, still seems a little low but not so crazily low. With a PhD though you are definitely better going elsewhere.

Last edited by JohnML on Sat Oct 24, 2015 6:31 am; edited 1 time in total

Fallacy

Joined: 29 Jun 2015
Location: ex-ROK

Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2015 6:25 am Post subject: RE: University High on Something

denverdeath wrote:

Hope that money is for 6-7 hours weekly??!!!??

Not even close:

Quote:

Duties: 12 classroom hours per week (typically 9-10 contact hours + 2-3 clinic counseling hours); 4 office hours per week; Occasional staff meetings and work-related responsibilities.

edwardcatflap

Joined: 22 Mar 2009

Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2015 2:33 pm Post subject:

Quote:

I was talking about in mainland China

Yes we've noticed reading comprehension isn't your strong point.

Quote:

I've bolded my answer to your question, so you don't miss the answer again

You mean your highly scientific answer that you know a lot of people in ESL who lie about their salaries so he must be lying too? Worth waiting for.

Quote:

Now post counter responses to the links I posted in the thread.

I'll just post the EDB salary scale for the third time.

http://www.csb.gov.hk/english/admin/pay/42.html

He reckons he was at the top end of the secondary school level, which came to 62K+14k housing+5k bonus, which was around 70,000 rmb at the time. Since you've already admitted this is 'possible' I guess we can finally agree and you can tell us more about your friend's amazing apartment in Shanghai. Laughing

JohnML

Joined: 05 Jul 2015

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 4:54 am Post subject:

edwardcatflap wrote:

Quote:

I was talking about in mainland China

Yes we've noticed reading comprehension isn't your strong point.

Quote:

I've bolded my answer to your question, so you don't miss the answer again

You mean your highly scientific answer that you know a lot of people in ESL who lie about their salaries so he must be lying too? Worth waiting for.

Quote:

Now post counter responses to the links I posted in the thread.

As per you're being that stereotypical dude with a bum job who knows he is wrong but can only insult to defend your position and "job". We are talking about base salary, read the posts correctly. BASE salary at no point did I start adding benefits up. If we are talking about benefits, the bonus in other sectors is about 20% average and housing as standard and I haven't included these. Which means the standard expat wage in HK would be around 60,000 RMB outside of TEFL.

That link you've provided proves nothing, nothing at all and you know it doesn't. You just come across as someone desperate to prove a false point. Post actual job advertisements. Those jobs paying that much are obviously not ESL teachers. It's just under "English", they are extremely high end managers and no person who just has TEFL experience has got a hope in hell of reaching those goals.

https://www.teachaway.com/teaching-public-schools-hong-kong/salary-benefits-public-school-jobs-hong-kong

http://worldoftefl.com/teaching-english-in-hong-kong/

http://www.uk-tefl.com/finding-work-hongkong

GENO, Adam and some other dude made this point as well as myself a million times, you are quoting salaries that are completely unrealistic. For a start you are trying to throw benefits into the equation when you knew full well we were only talking about salary. This instantly makes people skeptical, that combined with your obvious inflation of Korean salaries as you have done in the past. I'd be an idiot not to think you or your friend were exaggerating to hell and I still do.

For these people who are in managerial positions in the government english scheme in China which is pretty much top, top, top end. I could quote assistant directors at HSBC earning 10, nay 20 times what they do. I don't though, and y'know why? Everyone else on here understands why but I know you're a bit slow for these things. That's not realistic sweety even for that sector.

I've supplied normal and high end wages for HK, it goes to about 35,000 RMB. Those were the top 3 links on google. Not to mention a billion other sectors are all alive and healthy whilst English teaching is on a fast downwards slope.

edwardcatflap

Joined: 22 Mar 2009

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:07 pm Post subject:

Quote:

We are talking about base salary, read the posts correctly. BASE salary at no point did I start adding benefits up

Everything revolves around you doesn't it. You've decided that we're talking about base salary and we've always been talking about base salary.' He wasn't talking about base salary in the original post I quoted and so neither was I. He's clearly and openly including housing and benefits in his overall salary.

Quote:

For the record I was getting close to the top of the pay scale for secondary nets, got a housing allowance, a retention incentive and a whack of well over 100 000 every two years of service. And the differential between the HK Buck and the RMB wasn't so bad back then. So it was close to RMB 70 000, effectively.

So if after my first post you had politely and reasonably pointed out that he wasn't making that figure as a base salary, instead of immediately launching into an angry rant, I would've agreed with you and that would have been that.

Quote:

As per you're being that stereotypical dude with a bum job who knows he is wrong but can only insult to defend your position and "job".

Again reading comprehension has let you down. We're not talking aout my job, I was talking about a guy who posted on the China boards. I'm not sure what I'm even supposed to be wrong about. I quoted a guy talking about his salary and asked you if he was lying or not. I haven't even given my opinion on the topic yet.

Quote:

That link you've provided proves nothing, nothing at all and you know it doesn't

This is what it says on the Hng Kong NT scheme website

Quote:

NETs under the Enhanced NET Scheme in Secondary Schools
The pay for NETs at the Graduate Master/Mistress (GM) rank is equivalent to Master Pay Scale Points 15 to 33 (with effect from 1 October 2010), with a salary bar at Point 20 (or Point 22 for those serving NETs appointed before 1 October 2010) on the Master Pay Scale..

You'll notice it goes up to 33, which if you cross reference with the salary scale I sent you before means top of the scale for secondary teachers is 62,235 HK dollars. Which is exactly the base salary the teacher I quoted said.

So, do you finally accept that with benefits - housing, bonus etc..(which he clearly included) the guy I was quoting was telling the truth about making 70,000 rmb a month? Or are you going to respond with more personal attacks and irrelevant statistics about the declining state of TEFL in Asia and how much the base pay is for bankers is in Shanghai and the like? Your call. Either way I'm done.

Adam Carolla

Joined: 26 Feb 2010

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:24 pm Post subject:

edwardcatflap wrote:

Quote:

We are talking about base salary, read the posts correctly. BASE salary at no point did I start adding benefits up

Quote:

As per you're being that stereotypical dude with a bum job who knows he is wrong but can only insult to defend your position and "job".

Quote:

That link you've provided proves nothing, nothing at all and you know it doesn't

This is what it says on the Hng Kong NT scheme website

Quote:

First, you state, the guy was talking about his "salary" which has a pretty clear definition.

Next, you state, he must clearly have meant to include benefits. Why would that be? Does he not know what a salary is?

So which is it?

edwardcatflap

Joined: 22 Mar 2009

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 6:10 pm Post subject:

Quote:

You'd have to ask him that. I just posted what he said. If you think a person's 'salary' doesn't include a living allowance or bonuses fair enough. Whatever he or I call it, he told you how much he gets in total and what for, so I don't think you can accuse him of lying or exaggerating.

JohnML

Joined: 05 Jul 2015

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 7:52 pm Post subject:

Adam Carolla wrote:

edwardcatflap wrote:

Quote:

We are talking about base salary, read the posts correctly. BASE salary at no point did I start adding benefits up

Quote:

As per you're being that stereotypical dude with a bum job who knows he is wrong but can only insult to defend your position and "job".

Quote:

That link you've provided proves nothing, nothing at all and you know it doesn't

This is what it says on the Hng Kong NT scheme website

Quote:

Eh, just forget him. He doesn't answer questions, just asks them. He ignored everything I asked him even when I answered his own questions, refuses to admit anything that doesn't conform to his opinion etc, contradicts himself... Quite a few people pointed out these facts and what he was doing and he's still not admitting to blatantly doing it. We're all wrong and he's right.

He was talking about mainland China at one point, then switched to HK whilst still using RMB to reference a post he made months ago I didn't even remember. I got confused then admitted it and he said something along the lines of "you can't read, we get it". Even though his posts are all over the place and read like a note scribbled on loo roll.

Besides more importantly this has gone severely off topic so yeah i'm going to drop it here now. Shouldn't have gone on this long.

Fallacy

Joined: 29 Jun 2015
Location: ex-ROK

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 11:53 pm Post subject: RE: University Hiring Season

15 ads for uni positions have been placed in the past 30 days: right on schedule.

Ytackary

Joined: 11 Oct 2015

Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2015 5:03 pm Post subject:

Has anyone here worked at Seoul National University of Science and Technology? The position (listed in this thread) sounds pretty good to me but I'd really appreciate it if anyone has any information about what it's like to work there before I apply. I've had a good search but haven't been able to find anything on here or elsewhere (which I guess could be a good sign?) Thanks Last edited by Ytackary on Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:29 pm; edited 1 time in total

PRagic

Joined: 24 Feb 2006

Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:09 pm Post subject:

A buddy of mine in the US is applying for that job. He has a Ph.D. in English Lit from Purdue. He and the better half have been back in the States for a long time, and she, after doing well in the IT industry, wants to transition back to the mother country. Might be some competition for that job!

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