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alongway
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
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 Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:51 am Post subject: |
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| tophatcat wrote: |
One poster states he is doing well. He is just trying to protect the market for his friends.
LOFLMAO 
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With your attitude it's little surprise that such a person would be unknown to you. Not everyone is so self-absorbed.
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| The market here is already tightly controlled in YOUR favour. E-2's can teach on the side for cheap but it IS illegal and if caught there are consequences. Imagine if E-2's could suddenly control their visa and work anywhere they wanted, as many hours they wanted? Plus do privates as long as they declared their earnings? Yes? Well they can't. The market is already rigged towards F visa holders most of whom, from what I saw, couldn't teach a lick or be bothered to up their qualifications and improve themselves. Why? Market controls protected them. |
That doesn't stop them from doing it, and regardless of the visa type, charging a price well below market value damages it. The e2s were an example, but he's an F5 and willing to do 20k an hour.
We already deal with an industry that has not kept up with inflation. While you can still find people willing to pay more, it does become harder and harder for some, and gives companies, like recruiters who charge huge markups , excuses to try and push down wages more and more. |
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coralreefer_1
Joined: 19 Jan 2009
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| Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:20 am Post subject: |
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| alongway wrote: |
| tophatcat wrote: |
One poster states he is doing well. He is just trying to protect the market for his friends.
LOFLMAO
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With your attitude it's little surprise that such a person would be unknown to you. Not everyone is so self-absorbed.
| Quote: |
| The market here is already tightly controlled in YOUR favour. E-2's can teach on the side for cheap but it IS illegal and if caught there are consequences. Imagine if E-2's could suddenly control their visa and work anywhere they wanted, as many hours they wanted? Plus do privates as long as they declared their earnings? Yes? Well they can't. The market is already rigged towards F visa holders most of whom, from what I saw, couldn't teach a lick or be bothered to up their qualifications and improve themselves. Why? Market controls protected them. |
That doesn't stop them from doing it, and regardless of the visa type, charging a price well below market value damages it. The e2s were an example, but he's an F5 and willing to do 20k an hour.
We already deal with an industry that has not kept up with inflation. While you can still find people willing to pay more, it does become harder and harder for some, and gives companies, like recruiters who charge huge markups , excuses to try and push down wages more and more. |
IF dude is on an F5 and charging only 20,000 per hour (again, there was no context to this rate in terms of class, students, work, travel...etc) that is his business. If 20,000 is good for him....then who are you or anyone else to crap on him for what he charges...unless that is...folks like you simply care about protecting your own income stream and rates. If its good for him, then let him be. If you or anyone else are worth more and get more, then I am sure you will have no problems getting more with the difference in credentials/qualifications and quality that you provide.
It would be better for you to just come out and say it. Not that anyone else gives a darn or would sacrifice their own income to preserve yours, but at least you would come off as being more honest.
You are arguing (I dont want to use the term argue because I like that we all are having a discussion about this in a civilized manner) the idea that his rate, or my rate, or someone elses rate is too low.....but the whole basis of that assumes that we have ample opportunities to make more, but just choose to make less. I wont speak for others and I will readily admit I'm not Einstein, but I know well enough that I will make the most I can. I wont charge 30,000 if I can get 50,000. And i wont refuse a 70,000/hr class and take a 30,000 won instead. I also would rather take a 40,000wopn class and connect with 2-3 other parents/contacts that are impressed with a lower cost than charge 60,000 won for parents that feel its pretty expensive and want to hoard me for themselves.
You speak of market value, but you surely understand that there are different markets, and varying levels of supply and demand all across this tiny country? Costs of simple good like rice and meat vary wildly by province, city,and even neighborhoods.. Its only natural that tutor rates would also. But noone has mentioned that and as i mentioned previously.
Some folks cater to higher end students. Maybe what they have to offer isnt really any different in terms of quality,but they charge more because people associate high price with high quality. In business we call this "prestige pricing". Maybe some folks really do offer a superior product for the price, buty my guess is many others feel they are privledged enough to charge a "prestige" price but not offering a significant increase in quality compared to "regular" teacher. The pain you are seeing is one that many other consumers are wising up to. Starbucks coffeee isnt that much better to warrant 5,000 per coffee....not when 17 other shops can deliver the same thing ( a sweet drink and a place to talk with friends). Most are not interested in the coffee, just like many prospective students are not all that serious about English when they find a foreign teacher. |
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tophatcat
Joined: 09 Aug 2006
Location: under the hat
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| Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:58 am Post subject: |
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| The thing is, I'm not actually doing a 20k/hr class. Most of my classes are 50k/hr. I have more above 50k/hr than below. If anything, alongway is driving the market price down for me. But, if business gets slow, I will happily do a class at 30,000 won. |
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tophatcat
Joined: 09 Aug 2006
Location: under the hat
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| Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:25 am Post subject: |
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doing it for his friends
This is right up there with filling a brown paper bag full of poo, placing it in front of the neighbor's front door, sticking a match to it, ringing the doorbell, yelling fire, and scampering off down the street to watch at a distance.
All the dude needs is a big red nose and some clown shoes.
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alongway
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
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| Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:05 am Post subject: |
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IF dude is on an F5 and charging only 20,000 per hour (again, there was no context to this rate in terms of class, students, work, travel...etc) that is his business. If 20,000 is good for him....then who are you or anyone else to crap on him for what he charges...unless that is...folks like you simply care about protecting your own income stream and rates. If its good for him, then let him be. If you or anyone else are worth more and get more, then I am sure you will have no problems getting more with the difference in credentials/qualifications and quality that you provide.
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Because people don't exist in a bubble? Do you understand what a market is? It seems like you don't even have a basic grasp of economics, or much else to be honest.
Of course people care about protecting their income streams. What kind of idiot wouldn't? Some people also care more about their own income stream.
How many students do you really think take the time to dig through someone's resume first before they simply look at a rate and pass? We're not talking about companies with professional hiring departments and staff with experience. We're talking about the equivalent of soccer moms and random people who have zero experience figuring that out. There are still people out there who think just because they can get a filipino online for 5k/hour they should be able to get someone in their house for about the same.
Following your logic all these countries that have laws against dumping are just crazy right? Free market right? So what if a chinese company shows up and offers products at 5% of the market price, what could possibly go wrong right?
| Quote: |
| It would be better for you to just come out and say it. Not that anyone else gives a darn or would sacrifice their own income to preserve yours, but at least you would come off as being more honest. |
You make a lot of assumptions, based on nothing more than some reaching attempt to reframe the argument. It's just simply impossible that someone could actually care about the community at large. You're both quite pitiable.
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| You speak of market value, but you surely understand that there are different markets, and varying levels of supply and demand all across this tiny country? Costs of simple good like rice and meat vary wildly by province, city,and even neighborhoods.. Its only natural that tutor rates would also. But noone has mentioned that and as i mentioned previously. |
Of course there are, but unless you're out in the country catering to low income families, there are still standards. |
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coralreefer_1
Joined: 19 Jan 2009
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:42 am Post subject: |
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| alongway wrote: |
| Quote: |
IF dude is on an F5 and charging only 20,000 per hour (again, there was no context to this rate in terms of class, students, work, travel...etc) that is his business. If 20,000 is good for him....then who are you or anyone else to crap on him for what he charges...unless that is...folks like you simply care about protecting your own income stream and rates. If its good for him, then let him be. If you or anyone else are worth more and get more, then I am sure you will have no problems getting more with the difference in credentials/qualifications and quality that you provide.
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Because people don't exist in a bubble? Do you understand what a market is? It seems like you don't even have a basic grasp of economics, or much else to be honest.
Of course people care about protecting their income streams. What kind of idiot wouldn't? Some people also care more about their own income stream.
How many students do you really think take the time to dig through someone's resume first before they simply look at a rate and pass? We're not talking about companies with professional hiring departments and staff with experience. We're talking about the equivalent of soccer moms and random people who have zero experience figuring that out. There are still people out there who think just because they can get a filipino online for 5k/hour they should be able to get someone in their house for about the same.
Following your logic all these countries that have laws against dumping are just crazy right? Free market right? So what if a chinese company shows up and offers products at 5% of the market price, what could possibly go wrong right?
| Quote: |
| It would be better for you to just come out and say it. Not that anyone else gives a darn or would sacrifice their own income to preserve yours, but at least you would come off as being more honest. |
You make a lot of assumptions, based on nothing more than some reaching attempt to reframe the argument. It's just simply impossible that someone could actually care about the community at large. You're both quite pitiable.
| Quote: |
| You speak of market value, but you surely understand that there are different markets, and varying levels of supply and demand all across this tiny country? Costs of simple good like rice and meat vary wildly by province, city,and even neighborhoods.. Its only natural that tutor rates would also. But noone has mentioned that and as i mentioned previously. |
Of course there are, but unless you're out in the country catering to low income families, there are still standards. |
The bubble you speak of is the same we all live in. I understand economics enough (I have a masters in Economics from the US and published papers/thesis to prove it) that people are going to make money the best way that allows them given their time and what they personally value their time is worth weighed against the opportunity cost of doing x instead of y. And yes, you use the word "some" but the more appropriate word is "all" people care about protecting their income. The only difference as far as it relates to this discussion is one side is arguing the other should have no income at all so they can protect their own income.
Now of course you didn't directly suggest that teachers that take a rate you and others may consider too low should just sit at home and surf the net...but at the same time suggest their rate is low as if they are charging a lower fee with no merit or mention about why they are charging a lower fee (as I said, some arent as educated, some arent as connected, some dont have the same opportunities for classes, some simply just dont care to gouge, some dont want to be so serious)...etc etc. This is a possible explanation for why people charge a different rate that you simply choose to ignore.
And its true...many students do not go through a thorough process evaluating a teacher. But can you see how your argument is actually in my favor? People that are truly interested in QUALITY will do that! People that VALUE quality will spend a good amount of time doing research or getting recommendations. On the other hand, people that do not place much VALUE in quality, and are not so serious about it will care more about the lowest price or otherwise other superficial factors such as looks, convenience, gender..etc. This goes back to the analogy of the rum I made earlier. Good rum is for drinking straight. Cheap rum is for mixing. When one is seeking quality, they will find it. The doctor I was teaching that I mentioned earlier was paying his previous teacher 40/hour. When he moved and I took over the class recently, I raised the rate to 65/hr. That was likely a shock to him,and that doctor could have easily found another teacher for a similar rate. Guess what though? He chose to pay 25k more per hour because he places value in the fact I have 2 masters degrees and have 10 years of experience. Could I have gotten more? Probably. Then again, it isnt really that much work, just a few edits that are a separate charge, and otherwise just meeting and correcting with pronunciation. No prep on my part at all. Many others though, may not VALUE those differences enough to pay a higher rate because of their own personal goals and ambitions when choosing a teacher.
You seem eager to question my understanding of basic economics, but fail to grasp even the most basic economic principal covered on the first pages of any economics textbook: Supply and Demand! We dont need to speak on supply because that is abundant. But lets focus on demand shall we. If they were a high demand for the kind of rates and the alleged quality those rates justify....we wouldn't be having this discussion would we? The fact is that that people just do not DEMAND the level of excellence of instruction that justifies some of the rates being discussed.
Now you tell me....if a customer is satisfied (meaning their demand is met) by a teacher that is satisfied teaching that class at that rate (supply)..how can you say otherwise? If a student's demand is not met guess what...they will pay a higher price for a better teacher. On the supply side, if the teacher is not satisfied with the rate being offered, they will not give the supply. Its pretty simple and a concept I have explained several times already. I wont take the step you did to lay personal insults...but I would suggest that perhaps you are in no place to criticize anyone about basic economic principals.
Lastly, you speak of low income families. Perhaps you are again not too aware yourself of the basic economic standing of the average Korean household. but ECONOMIC statistics show the average (not low income, average) Korean family struggle with many other things. The vast majority of households that might be considered "average" by economic figures can not afford to hire even a PRIVATE teacher even with a low rate. We all know and enjoy such income from families that are above that threshold, those that have enough disposable income to afford a private teacher to supplement whatever other private education they are getting in several subjects. The vast majority though, cannot. If they could, there would be far more demand than supply, and us old timers could once again go back to making premium rates. |
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tophatcat
Joined: 09 Aug 2006
Location: under the hat
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:04 am Post subject: |
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Good job coralreefer. I like they way you have kept the high ground. You have been open minded and fair to both sides of the issue. Yes you are right.
A person has every right to charge as they please. There's nothing wrong with Bob charging 30k if that's what's in his capacity. |
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alongway
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:02 am Post subject: |
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| tophatcat wrote: |
Good job coralreefer. I like they way you have kept the high ground. You have been open minded and fair to both sides of the issue. Yes you are right.
A person has every right to charge as they please. There's nothing wrong with Bob charging 30k if that's what's in his capacity. |
and yet many countries all around the world would disagree with you. There are in fact laws on the books to protect from many kinds of predatory pricing behaviours all around the world. Including offering prices too low. With that in mind I don't think people do have the right to charge as they please.
| Quote: |
| We dont need to speak on supply because that is abundant. But lets focus on demand shall we. If they were a high demand for the kind of rates and the alleged quality those rates justify....we wouldn't be having this discussion would we? |
See there is where you fail the argument. The supply is in fact not that great. There are not that many foreigners on F visas who can actually legally do the private lessons. While they certainly congregate together online to make it look like there are a lot, the visa numbers will tell you the amount is quite low, even if every single one of them was making themselves available for privates which they probably don't.
There is a perceived supply and demand, or more a perceived "fair price". People will generally go for the lowest price possible when trying to get something, all things being equal. However they don't take the time to differentiate and that low price is often supplied by someone who probably isn't legally able to take the work but does so anyway. While you might track some of them down and have them fined, deported, etc, the damage they do is create the perception that the product is worth much less by advertising their low rates. We do know in this case the only qualifier he put was "if it filled a hole", nothing else, so we don't really need to engage in the song and dance about "circumstances" because they're fairly well known.
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Now you tell me....if a customer is satisfied (meaning their demand is met) by a teacher that is satisfied teaching that class at that rate (supply)..how can you say otherwise? |
Again, back to dumping. You tout all this economic knowledge and yet don't even seem to grasp this concept. here is the problem: a small number of people who can take a few clients at a cheap rate can make a lot of noise about their rates through ads. They can't actually handle the demand for 10-20k/hour lessons. They take the few students they need to fill up their schedule and then there are a whole bunch of people expecting a rate they never thought they could get, but now want it. It creates a situation that really shouldn't exist. Again: people are not in individual bubbles. |
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tophatcat
Joined: 09 Aug 2006
Location: under the hat
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| What about my Korean friends and relatives? Shouldn't I be concerned about them getting more affordable prices? Shouldn't I be just as concerned about them as you are about your friends? |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| alongway wrote: |
| tophatcat wrote: |
Good job coralreefer. I like they way you have kept the high ground. You have been open minded and fair to both sides of the issue. Yes you are right.
A person has every right to charge as they please. There's nothing wrong with Bob charging 30k if that's what's in his capacity. |
and yet many countries all around the world would disagree with you. There are in fact laws on the books to protect from many kinds of predatory pricing behaviours all around the world. Including offering prices too low. With that in mind I don't think people do have the right to charge as they please.
| Quote: |
| We dont need to speak on supply because that is abundant. But lets focus on demand shall we. If they were a high demand for the kind of rates and the alleged quality those rates justify....we wouldn't be having this discussion would we? |
See there is where you fail the argument. The supply is in fact not that great. There are not that many foreigners on F visas who can actually legally do the private lessons. While they certainly congregate together online to make it look like there are a lot, the visa numbers will tell you the amount is quite low, even if every single one of them was making themselves available for privates which they probably don't.
There is a perceived supply and demand, or more a perceived "fair price". People will generally go for the lowest price possible when trying to get something, all things being equal. However they don't take the time to differentiate and that low price is often supplied by someone who probably isn't legally able to take the work but does so anyway. While you might track some of them down and have them fined, deported, etc, the damage they do is create the perception that the product is worth much less by advertising their low rates. We do know in this case the only qualifier he put was "if it filled a hole", nothing else, so we don't really need to engage in the song and dance about "circumstances" because they're fairly well known.
| Quote: |
Now you tell me....if a customer is satisfied (meaning their demand is met) by a teacher that is satisfied teaching that class at that rate (supply)..how can you say otherwise? |
Again, back to dumping. You tout all this economic knowledge and yet don't even seem to grasp this concept. here is the problem: a small number of people who can take a few clients at a cheap rate can make a lot of noise about their rates through ads. They can't actually handle the demand for 10-20k/hour lessons. They take the few students they need to fill up their schedule and then there are a whole bunch of people expecting a rate they never thought they could get, but now want it. It creates a situation that really shouldn't exist. Again: people are not in individual bubbles. |
It is admirable that you are still taking the time to post your thoughts on this matter.
Anyone still reading this thread, though uninterested in posting due to the character of those posting against you, would quite likely have praise for your efforts and your arguments.
Cheers. |
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coralreefer_1
Joined: 19 Jan 2009
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| Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 3:41 am Post subject: |
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| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| alongway wrote: |
| tophatcat wrote: |
Good job coralreefer. I like they way you have kept the high ground. You have been open minded and fair to both sides of the issue. Yes you are right.
A person has every right to charge as they please. There's nothing wrong with Bob charging 30k if that's what's in his capacity. |
and yet many countries all around the world would disagree with you. There are in fact laws on the books to protect from many kinds of predatory pricing behaviours all around the world. Including offering prices too low. With that in mind I don't think people do have the right to charge as they please.
| Quote: |
| We dont need to speak on supply because that is abundant. But lets focus on demand shall we. If they were a high demand for the kind of rates and the alleged quality those rates justify....we wouldn't be having this discussion would we? |
See there is where you fail the argument. The supply is in fact not that great. There are not that many foreigners on F visas who can actually legally do the private lessons. While they certainly congregate together online to make it look like there are a lot, the visa numbers will tell you the amount is quite low, even if every single one of them was making themselves available for privates which they probably don't.
There is a perceived supply and demand, or more a perceived "fair price". People will generally go for the lowest price possible when trying to get something, all things being equal. However they don't take the time to differentiate and that low price is often supplied by someone who probably isn't legally able to take the work but does so anyway. While you might track some of them down and have them fined, deported, etc, the damage they do is create the perception that the product is worth much less by advertising their low rates. We do know in this case the only qualifier he put was "if it filled a hole", nothing else, so we don't really need to engage in the song and dance about "circumstances" because they're fairly well known.
| Quote: |
Now you tell me....if a customer is satisfied (meaning their demand is met) by a teacher that is satisfied teaching that class at that rate (supply)..how can you say otherwise? |
Again, back to dumping. You tout all this economic knowledge and yet don't even seem to grasp this concept. here is the problem: a small number of people who can take a few clients at a cheap rate can make a lot of noise about their rates through ads. They can't actually handle the demand for 10-20k/hour lessons. They take the few students they need to fill up their schedule and then there are a whole bunch of people expecting a rate they never thought they could get, but now want it. It creates a situation that really shouldn't exist. Again: people are not in individual bubbles. |
It is admirable that you are still taking the time to post your thoughts on this matter.
Anyone still reading this thread, though uninterested in posting due to the character of those posting against you, would quite likely have praise for your efforts and your arguments.
Cheers. |
I saw it as we were having a discussion exchanging obviously very different views and opinions, but none the less each showing the other how the other side views the issue at hand. We obviously don't agree, but this is a discussion board after all. I don't need to convince alongway about anything, and he/she doesn't need to convince me about anything either. Heaven forbid everyone agree with each other and slap their own asses for such agreement.
With that said, you negative comments about my or anyone else's character because we have an opinion that varies from your own or alongway's speaks volumes about your own unwillingness to accept that not everyone views this or that issue with the same lens as you. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| coralreefer_1 wrote: |
| With that said, you negative comments about my or anyone else's character because we have an opinion that varies from your own or alongway's speaks volumes about your own unwillingness to accept that not everyone views this or that issue with the same lens as you. |
My comments had nothing whatever to do with your questionable opinions. The because part comes from the character displayed in this thread, as I have previously mentioned. Also, because of the thread started by tophatcat about losers, in some attempt to troll alongway...shameful behavior, really. |
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tophatcat
Joined: 09 Aug 2006
Location: under the hat
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| Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 5:55 am Post subject: |
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| It's so obvious. SOCK |
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coralreefer_1
Joined: 19 Jan 2009
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| Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 6:12 am Post subject: |
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| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| coralreefer_1 wrote: |
| With that said, you negative comments about my or anyone else's character because we have an opinion that varies from your own or alongway's speaks volumes about your own unwillingness to accept that not everyone views this or that issue with the same lens as you. |
My comments had nothing whatever to do with your questionable opinions. The because part comes from the character displayed in this thread, as I have previously mentioned. Also, because of the thread started by tophatcat about losers, in some attempt to troll alongway...shameful behavior, really. |
My comments are not "questionable" at all, unless that is, you are willing to admit that your opinion or take on the topic is more valid that my own, in short admitting that you believe your opinion is correct and any others that doesn't jump in line with yours is invalid.
Furthermore, what tophatcat said in this thread, or said in another thread has no relation to my comments other than the fact that you disagree with both of us, yet lump me into the same boat with him.
Tophatcat may have taken it a bit further than I may have personally in regards to the heat of it...but in the end the issue we all have been speaking on and exchanging opinions about is the important factor. You come back to kick an almost week old thread that had seemed to end peacefully only to throw down the gauntlet again and insult people that again had an opinion that was different than your own.
Get over it bro. People dont see the world as you do, and dont see the issue we are talking about as you. Again as I said in the thread you were so kind to bring my name up from...COMMAND your income. If you are worth it...then you should have no problem getting it. Otherwise, STFU about what other people are doing or charging. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 6:59 am Post subject: |
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| coralreefer_1 wrote: |
| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| coralreefer_1 wrote: |
| With that said, you negative comments about my or anyone else's character because we have an opinion that varies from your own or alongway's speaks volumes about your own unwillingness to accept that not everyone views this or that issue with the same lens as you. |
My comments had nothing whatever to do with your questionable opinions. The because part comes from the character displayed in this thread, as I have previously mentioned. Also, because of the thread started by tophatcat about losers, in some attempt to troll alongway...shameful behavior, really. |
My comments are not "questionable" at all, unless that is, you are willing to admit that your opinion or take on the topic is more valid that my own, in short admitting that you believe your opinion is correct and any others that doesn't jump in line with yours is invalid.
Furthermore, what tophatcat said in this thread, or said in another thread has no relation to my comments other than the fact that you disagree with both of us, yet lump me into the same boat with him.
Tophatcat may have taken it a bit further than I may have personally in regards to the heat of it...but in the end the issue we all have been speaking on and exchanging opinions about is the important factor. You come back to kick an almost week old thread that had seemed to end peacefully only to throw down the gauntlet again and insult people that again had an opinion that was different than your own.
Get over it bro. People dont see the world as you do, and dont see the issue we are talking about as you. Again as I said in the thread you were so kind to bring my name up from...COMMAND your income. If you are worth it...then you should have no problem getting it. Otherwise, STFU about what other people are doing or charging. |
Do you have reading comprehension problems? Read my post again. I am not interested in your opinion. My post was not a comment on your opinion. Get it?
But your response was in keeping with your character, which is what I was commenting on. Funny that. |
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