|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Plain Meaning
Joined: 18 Oct 2014
|
 Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2015 1:04 am Post subject: Freedom of Speech! For the Donald! |
 |
|
The United States of America has a robust speech regime. And I'm not just talking about the unrestricted money speech of our ruler oligarchs! I mean protected speech for all political speech, even hateful stupid nonsensical political speech. I mean Donald speech.
But very recently, the United Kingdom also affirmed that its respect for Freedom of Speech was pretty darned serious, too.
The Ethics of Barring Donald Trump From Your Country
| Quote: |
| As of this writing, more than 450,000 people in the United Kingdom have responded in kind to Donald Trump’s call for banning Muslims from entering the U.S. (and to other comments of his, including that parts of London are so rife with Islamic extremists that police are terrified to patrol them): They’ve called for a blanket ban of their own—on all Donald J. Trumps entering the U.K. |
NOOOOOOooooooooo! You can take away his orange hairpiece, but you can't take away his FREEDOM!
| Quote: |
The petition, which was first lodged in late November by an activist critical of a Trump golf course in Scotland, has garnered more than four times the necessary signatures to be considered for parliamentary debate, and Trump’s statements have already come up during a round of Prime Minister’s Questions. Asked by Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh, a Scottish lawmaker, if the government would designate Trump a “hate preacher” and bar him from visiting the country, Chancellor of the Exchequer George Osborne said no.
“Donald Trump’s comments fly in the face of the founding principles of the United States,” Osborne said. “I think the best way to defeat nonsense like this is to engage in robust democratic debate and make it clear his views are not welcome.” (As for the specific accusation of hate speech, a spokesman for Osborne pointed out that Trump has “not been convicted of any crime.”) |
Donald Trump, whose primary qualification is "not [having] been convicted of any crime," at least at the time of this post, may still travel to the United Kingdom! Huzzah!
| Quote: |
| A Canadian lawyer, meanwhile, told Liptak that the United States was simply exceptional in its tolerance for airing hateful ideas: “Canadians do not have a cast-iron stomach for offensive speech. We don’t subscribe to a marketplace of ideas. Americans as a whole are more tough-minded and more prepared for verbal combat.” |
Did you hear that America? We're exceptional! Our marketplace for ideas is certainly exceptional, although I do wish lobbyists would advertise flat fees for getting policies enacted, because I feel as if our marketplace for ideas could be a bit more transparent.
| Quote: |
| In a 2010 paper on how the “territorial First Amendment” in the United States has evolved over time, Timothy Zick, a law professor at William & Mary, noted that while it is especially common for countries such as Britain, Canada, and South Africa to deny entry to foreign speakers based purely on their ideology, the United States has done so as well ever since its founding—from the Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798 to severe restrictions against anarchists and communists during the Cold War. The Obama administration, he pointed out, had not disclaimed this authority, though it has lifted bans on Muslim scholars who were denied entry visas under the Bush administration. “It remains unclear, even today, whether the First Amendment prohibits the government from excluding an alien from the United States based solely upon ideological grounds,” Zick wrote, while adding that America’s “First Amendment is more cosmopolitan today than perhaps any other time in the nation’s history.” |
The First Amendment is so cosmopolitan, apparently. I hear it even contains other protections aside from Freedom of Speech . . . |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2015 2:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| “Canadians do not have a cast-iron stomach for offensive speech. We don’t subscribe to a marketplace of ideas. Americans as a whole are more tough-minded and more prepared for verbal combat.” |
Well, theoretically. But I don't think there is much, if anything, that Trump has said which would get him arrested in Canada. You can see people blasting Muslims on Canadian message boards, Comments sections, etc, all over the place. A guy like Trump might get held up at the border, but that's not the same thing as actually making it illegal to say the stuff.
One of the more recent hate-speech prosecution in Canada involved these remarks...
| Quote: |
After the session concluded, the StarPhoenix reporter asked him to clarify these remarks, and he explained that while serving in the army after the war, Germans had told him the Jews had provoked the war. The StarPhoenix quoted him as further saying:
The Jews damn near owned all of Germany prior to the war. That's why Hitler came in. He was going to make damn sure that the Jews didn't take over Germany, or even Europe. That's why he fried six million of those guys, you know. Jews would have owned the goddamned world. And look what they're doing now, they're killing people in Arab countries.
The reporter asked how Ahenakew could justify the Holocaust. The StarPhoenix quoted Ahenakew as replying:
How else do you get rid of a disease like that, that's going to take over, that's going to dominate? |
And even that guy was acquitted upon appeal.
There was recently some attempt to make hate-speech actionable under civil law(ie. human-rights legislation) as a form of discrimination, but there has been little success on that front, and the relevant provisions in the federal legislation were actually removed following a public backlash.
link |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2015 2:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
| And I think these days, banning a speaker from entering your country is kinda silly, like burning a few dozen copies of a best-selling book in order to show your opposition. It's not like people in the UK have no other access to Trump's speeches. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Plain Meaning
Joined: 18 Oct 2014
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2015 6:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| On the other hand wrote: |
| And I think these days, banning a speaker from entering your country is kinda silly, like burning a few dozen copies of a best-selling book in order to show your opposition. It's not like people in the UK have no other access to Trump's speeches. |
You're right. It only elevates the banned speaker.
Look how Israel handled the Donald, they welcomed him, but Bibi rejected his call to ban Muslims. So the Donald simply declined to meet him. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2015 11:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Look how Israel handled the Donald, they welcomed him, but Bibi rejected his call to ban Muslims |
Don't they already ban Muslims, and pretty much all other non-Jews from immigrating to Israel? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Plain Meaning
Joined: 18 Oct 2014
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 4:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Look how Israel handled the Donald, they welcomed him, but Bibi rejected his call to ban Muslims |
Don't they already ban Muslims, and pretty much all other non-Jews from immigrating to Israel? |
True. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Swartz
Joined: 19 Dec 2014
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 8:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Oy. Bit overkill on the dopiness, PM. I wonder how long free speech will last in America. The left has been floating the “hate speech” ploy a lot lately to support their continued witch hunts against anyone who speaks out against the multi-culti project. Of course, just like “hate crimes,” this narrative only flows one way: Violence against Whites, no matter how specific and clear it is, rarely if ever qualifies.
Free speech in liberal-utopian Europe was neutered in this fashion primarily because it didn’t hold the constitutional strength it does across the pond. It is also mainly used to protect any questioning of one specific event, which is why we still hear stories like the one last month about an 87 year old grandma getting jailed for thoughtcrime. (Because only the most truthful historical truth needs to be backed by legislation and harsh prison sentences for anyone who dares question it, amiright?)
England is perhaps the most broken nation of any in Europe. It lost too many of its great men in the Globalist Banker Wars and its dulled-down citizenry usually believes anything the dual-citizen owned BBC tells them. This is how the citizens of Rotherham and many other places can have their children pimped out by Paki rape gangs, shrug, slump on, and vote for Labor again.
| Quote: |
As we see in France – and probably later in America – the will of the people is not something the establishment is happy acknowledging, even if it has made its way through the multiple obstacles of an artificial and phony egalitarian morality, a mass media that is all false narratives, and a skewed political system where the money flows the other way.
The most they are willing to allow the people are a few token expressions. In the UK, for instance, people have the incredible "freedom" to sign e-petitions and to even have them 'debated' (i.e. briefly mentioned and then ignored) in the House of Commons if they get past a rarely reached threshold of 100,000 names. Hail the Revolution! Muh democracy!
But it seems that even this tiny bone of direct participation, thrown to the unrepresented masses, is subject to all sorts of sinister interference.
Recently two Trump related petitions have been gathering signatures.
One is an expression of views in line with that of the British establishment:
Block Donald J Trump from UK entry.
The other is pro-Trump or simply pro-common-sense:
Don't ban Trump from the United Kingdom.
Of course, there is no real intention to block Trump from the UK for what was actually a rather mild statement, because then the British government might have to do a bit more explaining about all the terrorists, jihadists, and barbarians from the Gulf States it allows to freely cross its borders. But the petition is symbolic and sends out the message the establishment wants to send out, namely:
"Although we may run into problems actually banning a man who could become the next US President from entering the UK, his views on Muslims are simply not welcome here, and our people have been suitably brainwashed to love Muslims. So, don't worry, our Saudi friends; keep banking in the City, boosting our property market, buying our weapons, and using our prostitutes."
For this reason, Her Majesty's Government (sic) has a vested interest in one Trump petition doing rather better than the other. But they are not content to just cheer from the sidelines. Under cover of the fact that a lot of names on petitions turn out to be false, HMG has actually been involved in "trimming" the pro-Trump petition, while allowing every dubious name on the anti-Trump petition to go unchallenged.
There are currently 557,571 signatures on the anti-Trump petition, but a recent freedom of information request by a Eddy Butler, a prominent English nationalist, revealed that zero names had been deleted for suspicion of being fraudulent from this list.
Contrast this with the pro-Trump petition. There are currently 37,626 signatures on this petition, but a further 30,000 names have actually been deleted for being suspected of being "fraudulent." One reason for this rather churlish action is that HMG is keen to prevent the pro-Trump petition reaching the 100,000 threshold, because then the petition has to be officially considered for a debate in parliament.
Such gerrymandering of the political process of course marches lock-step with multiculturalism, reminding us once again that you can never have true democracy in the modern age without having secure nationalism first. |
http://alternative-right.blogspot.com/2015/12/a-tale-of-two-petitions.html |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 6:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Swartz wrote: |
England is perhaps the most broken nation of any in Europe. |
Oy. Bit overkill on the dopiness, Swartz. Greece, Ukraine, Spain, and a few others would like to have a word with you, Russia as well. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Swartz
Joined: 19 Dec 2014
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 9:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Leon wrote: |
| Swartz wrote: |
England is perhaps the most broken nation of any in Europe. |
Oy. Bit overkill on the dopiness, Swartz. Greece, Ukraine, Spain, and a few others would like to have a word with you, Russia as well. |
Had you read more than that first sentence, Leon, you would have been able to discern with relative ease that I was referring to England’s *cultural* brokenness or lack of dignity. Also, your continued use of uncoordinated pithiness makes me unsure of what you’re actually trying to get at here.
Now, instead of jumping at these potentially fruitful attacks, which again and again only end up making you look foolish and dishonest, you need to stop, think, and analyze for a moment or two. And this parroting of what I say is a little odd and puerile, don't you think? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 9:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Swartz wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Swartz wrote: |
England is perhaps the most broken nation of any in Europe. |
Oy. Bit overkill on the dopiness, Swartz. Greece, Ukraine, Spain, and a few others would like to have a word with you, Russia as well. |
Had you read more than that first sentence, Leon, you would have been able to discern with relative ease that I was referring to England’s *cultural* brokenness or lack of dignity. Also, your continued use of uncoordinated pithiness makes me unsure of what you’re actually trying to get at here.
Now, instead of jumping at these potentially fruitful attacks, which again and again only end up making you look foolish and dishonest, you need to stop, think, and analyze for a moment or two. And this parroting of what I say is a little odd and puerile, don't you think? |
Pointing out your pot kettle black symptoms. You are unable to make me look foolish, and I would suggest that if you cannot understand my points it reflects more on you than me. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Swartz
Joined: 19 Dec 2014
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 10:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Leon wrote: |
| Swartz wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Swartz wrote: |
England is perhaps the most broken nation of any in Europe. |
Oy. Bit overkill on the dopiness, Swartz. Greece, Ukraine, Spain, and a few others would like to have a word with you, Russia as well. |
Had you read more than that first sentence, Leon, you would have been able to discern with relative ease that I was referring to England’s *cultural* brokenness or lack of dignity. Also, your continued use of uncoordinated pithiness makes me unsure of what you’re actually trying to get at here.
Now, instead of jumping at these potentially fruitful attacks, which again and again only end up making you look foolish and dishonest, you need to stop, think, and analyze for a moment or two. And this parroting of what I say is a little odd and puerile, don't you think? |
Pointing out your pot kettle black symptoms. You are unable to make me look foolish, and I would suggest that if you cannot understand my points it reflects more on you than me. |
Your re-framing isn’t going to work, Leon. I have noted several times how you 1) respond with pithy remarks instead of substance, 2) unravel and become borderline incomprehensible when required to expound further, and therefore 3) repeatedly fail in your attempts at argumentation.
But I’m here again Leon, so why don’t you give me something to work with instead of wasting more of my time. Were you wishing to make the point that the English are less culturally broken than the Greeks, Ukrainians, Spanish, or the Russians? By all means, proceed. Or would you now like to admit that you failed to read thoroughly and once again reacted clumsily, which is the reason for your present backtracking? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 10:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Swartz wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Swartz wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Swartz wrote: |
England is perhaps the most broken nation of any in Europe. |
Oy. Bit overkill on the dopiness, Swartz. Greece, Ukraine, Spain, and a few others would like to have a word with you, Russia as well. |
Had you read more than that first sentence, Leon, you would have been able to discern with relative ease that I was referring to England’s *cultural* brokenness or lack of dignity. Also, your continued use of uncoordinated pithiness makes me unsure of what you’re actually trying to get at here.
Now, instead of jumping at these potentially fruitful attacks, which again and again only end up making you look foolish and dishonest, you need to stop, think, and analyze for a moment or two. And this parroting of what I say is a little odd and puerile, don't you think? |
Pointing out your pot kettle black symptoms. You are unable to make me look foolish, and I would suggest that if you cannot understand my points it reflects more on you than me. |
Your re-framing isn’t going to work, Leon. I have noted several times how you 1) respond with pithy remarks instead of substance, 2) unravel and become borderline incomprehensible when required to expound further, and therefore 3) repeatedly fail in your attempts at argumentation.
But I’m here again Leon, so why don’t you give me something to work with instead of wasting more of my time. Were you wishing to make the point that the English are less culturally broken than the Greeks, Ukrainians, Spanish, or the Russians? By all means, proceed. Or would you now like to admit that you failed to read thoroughly and once again reacted clumsily, which is the reason for your present backtracking? |
I read the post, my thought remains the same. Why not offer a baseline for what you think culturally broken means, because I suspect we might have different views on it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Swartz
Joined: 19 Dec 2014
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 12:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Leon wrote: |
| Why not offer a baseline for what you think culturally broken means, because I suspect we might have different views on it. |
I did offer a baseline, Leon.
| Quote: |
| It lost too many of its great men in the Globalist Banker Wars and its dulled-down citizenry usually believes anything the dual-citizen owned BBC tells them. This is how the citizens of Rotherham and many other places can have their children pimped out by Paki rape gangs, shrug, slump on, and vote for Labor again. |
I have no problem elaborating on this, but you don’t offer much incentive for me to do so. Proposing that I put in the time while you refuse to pay attention in the first place and believe you can barge in with one sentence replies over and over again, shows that you are either a) highly inconsiderate, or b) not very bright. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 2:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Swartz wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Why not offer a baseline for what you think culturally broken means, because I suspect we might have different views on it. |
I did offer a baseline, Leon.
| Quote: |
| It lost too many of its great men in the Globalist Banker Wars and its dulled-down citizenry usually believes anything the dual-citizen owned BBC tells them. This is how the citizens of Rotherham and many other places can have their children pimped out by Paki rape gangs, shrug, slump on, and vote for Labor again. |
I have no problem elaborating on this, but you don’t offer much incentive for me to do so. Proposing that I put in the time while you refuse to pay attention in the first place and believe you can barge in with one sentence replies over and over again, shows that you are either a) highly inconsiderate, or b) not very bright. |
It's not b, unless all the standardized tests I've ever taken were a scam, a maybe, but keep in mind that in the instances were I posted short replies I didn't ask you for further elaboration. What is above is not a baseline, it is a rant. I can not tell why you think they have a weak culture, is it because they watch the BBC, because there is child rape, because the child rape is done by brown people, because they were not more angry, or what. If you use child rape as a metric, than all countries will come up short, and it is not like white people have not been involved in this activity, for example in Britain there were at least one famous British performer whose name I have forgotten who had a long history of it who just came out, and there is the fact that sports stadiums still play Garry Glitter songs.
If I had to come up with a baseline for culturally broken, for example, some metrics I would consider are engagement in self destructive behavior. In this case, Russia would be more culturally broken than the UK with its high rates of alcoholism and deaths caused by alcohol and hard drugs. Or I would consider something like prevalence of corruption, in which case Ukraine, Russia, and Greece outstrip England easily. Cohesion would be another, such as whether there are breakaway provinces. In this case You could point out Scotland, but Spain, Ukraine, and Russia have more of a problem with separatism and separatism inspired terrorism.
Go ahead, feel free to expand, I will engage in good faith. Try and be more pithy than usual, and I will be less so. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Swartz
Joined: 19 Dec 2014
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 4:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
England was arguably once the greatest nation on earth, but from the postwar period onwards it has been turned into a socialist backwater of cultural Marxism. Its high-brow culture has morphed into something that now appeals to the lowest common denominator and the people have been indoctrinated to the hilt by leftism since they are offered no alternative; and that’s the root of the problem--globalist/communist leadership empowered through liberal ideology. The middle class is practically nonexistent, it has been turned into a welfare state dependent on the NHS which imports unqualified labor instead of growing its own, it’s inundated with political correctness of the worst kind, the family has been ripped apart, native Britons are viewed as the enemy by their own government, and their culture has been eroded to accommodate what is turning out to be a multicultural nightmare. Many young people abandon the UK because they see little hope for the future. The civic pride of the average citizen has been crushed. This why “Asian” rape gangs are able to pick off thousands of young White girls, pimp them out, and get away with it for years because the authorities would rather cover it up than be labeled “racist.” The families blame themselves and are afraid to speak out, so it happens again and again. England/the UK in general is perhaps the best example we have of cultural sickness and suicide at the hands of liberalism as presided over by nation-destroying global communists. Decent synopsis of it here:
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/britain-abolishes-itself/
David Cameron’s concept of Britain’s enemy:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/british-pm-david-cameron-non-violent-extremists-including-911-truthers-and-conspiracy-theorists-are-just-as-dangerous-as-isil-terrorists/5405059
They’re too polite, proper, and brainwashed to deal with the radical changes and fecund third world throngs that are going to plunder that island in the coming decades. They probably don’t stand a chance in the long run, I think Sweden has better odds.
| Leon wrote: |
| it is not like white people have not been involved in this activity, for example in Britain there were at least one famous British performer whose name I have forgotten who had a long history of it who just came out |
Not sure who you are referring to above, but if you’re talking about the most recent scandal concerning Lord Janner, he is Jewish, not White.
| Quote: |
| Russia would be more culturally broken than the UK with its high rates of alcoholism and deaths caused by alcohol and hard drugs. |
It’s correct that Russia has been horribly afflicted with alcohol related social ills in the recent past. However, it is important to note that Russia has also made a concerted effort under Putin to repair the damage that was done under communism, which was the source for most of that. It’s early on in the process but this move to return Russia to its traditional heritage, focus on family formation, its orthodox roots, etc., is why Putin is so beloved. The life expectancy of Russian men has increased from 58 to over 65 in the last ten years. And it is now the West who suffers more from these kinds of social ills, as a recent study of working class American males showed.
http://www.unz.com/akarlin/soviet-fishtown/?highlight=russia+alcoholism
Again, not that difficult to figure out why this has happened. It’s plainly obvious. You destroy national identity by promoting degeneracy, facilitating the breakdown of families, and importing foreigners who use up the resources of native citizens and exploit the system. It will destroy itself in time without much force if there are enough Kuros' around.
I’m not seeing the connection you’re making with your other examples. Greece is a mess for its own reasons that are primarily economic and can be blamed (FTMP) on corrupt elites and international bankers (same people, surprise). The Ukraine was overthrown and sent into chaos BY dual-citizen oligarchs and our own corrupt dual-citizen American leadership (same people, again). And the separatist issue with Spain is pretty irrelevant AFAICT.
The connection is between *who* is running the Western countries that are ideologically sick and dying slow deaths. Russia is the perfect example to use because it suffered under a very similar ideology implemented by the same group of people, and it is now finally breaking free of that due to its reconnection with its national identity and traditional culture. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
