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Titus2
Joined: 06 Sep 2015
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 Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| Titus2 wrote: |
| Trump is a very strong male who has absolutely incredible persuasion, media and marketing skills. Even people who disagree with him are being influenced. |
So I gotta ask...do you really believe this? Really?
Trump is little more than an obnoxious bully with a lot of money. Grew up wealthy. Had everything given to him. His powers of persuasion, on intelligent people, would be near the zero mark. But is that one of your points? That to win this election, he needs only to influence the blind, deaf, dumb average American voter?
Not to say he won't win. I kinda hope he does. But that has more to do with how bad the other candidates are than with how 'incredible' he is.
Your message is clear about his message, but it seems you are over-rating him as a man...no? |
Trump is a magician w/r/t persuasion.
This Trump thing comes at a good time for me. I'm moving from a phase in my career where I performed a service and towards selling the service so I've been going to all these seminars and these crazy psychological evaluations and the like. Basically these people try to teach you how to act like Trump, though of course they don't reference him.
In fact, Trump attended the same church - and his father was a close friend - of the man who birthed the modern (pop) science of persuasion: Norman Vincent Peale. Werner Erhard was a close friend of Peale, and he in turn taught Steve Jobs the art of persuasion. This is the kitchen table Trump grew up sitting at. It's all corny and silly until you practice it and see how easy it is to make people align with your interests.
When you people describe Trump you're getting it all wrong. He's been taught to suppress his ego, which is why all you see is ego. The ego gets in the way of negotiation. Hurt feelings are for children. Adults want results (that's an actual tag line). What you see is him aggressively asserting his interests - which you see as being a bully or egotistical - but it's ultimately a sales strategy. The oldest strategy, in fact. Set a high bar and then compromise. The average person senses the looming compromise and - for fear of conflict - attempts to simply settle on the compromise from the onset of the negotiation (and a POTUS campaign is a long negotiation). Trump pisses on your compromise up until the point he has pushed you as far towards his desired end as possible. Confidently and assertively demanding your frame be validated influences your negotiating opponent. In this case the opponent is the American people.
Trump is very, very gifted in destroying obstacles as well. This can not be taught. He smells weakness. See the Jeb "low energy" comment followed by "more energy, I like that" in the following debate. There is no way Jeb can recover. If he acts energetic it looks like he's submissive to Trump. If he remains low energy, if validates Trump's assertion. Scott Adams calls it the "linguistic kill shot". It's so effective. Jeb is done as a public figure. To accomplish this kill shot you have to be dominant. Nobody would care if Ron Paul called Jeb 'low energy'. Even if you hate Trump (next Hitler omg) you instinctively follow his cues. That's what an alpha is.
Regarding the 'oversell strategy', for example, if Obama were skilled, he'd have started with socialized health care and settled on the 'public option'. But he started with the compromise, and gave the insurance industry what they wanted. It's all very simple when you start thinking about it.
Yes, I know you're going to wiki Peale and recite the criticism. Spare me. The only aspects that Trump internalized, best I can tell, relate to managing the ego of both yourself and your competitor. If you're married, learning to manage ego's is extremely beneficial. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 4:50 am Post subject: |
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| Titus2 wrote: |
| Plain Meaning wrote: |
It is now a mainline idea in the Republican party? As in, four years ago, opposition to the Iraq War was totally anethema to "average American republicans?" |
Ron Paul was heretical but not a dominant personality. Weak men do not move ideas. This is why Ron Paul lost and why Bernie won't win. Trump is a very strong male who has absolutely incredible persuasion, media and marketing skills. Even people who disagree with him are being influenced. You'll see a lag as people work through their cognitive dissonance, but he killed the legitimacy of the neo-cohen permanent war machine during that debate. Men who move history do not behave like Ron Paul or Bernie Sanders.
Trump may lose, and I'm ok with him losing. It's more important that Americans start to see their government as an internationalist force that is actively working to ruin their lives for the benefit of oligarchs. That is the benefit of Trump.
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I think the idea that Iraq is a disaster is a mainline idea because to think otherwise is to be blind, deaf, and dumb.
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The Conservative movement/machine has spent a ton of money ensuring that the average R voter is deaf, blind and dumb. It has been very effective.
On an even better note, Trump is ending the Bush dynasty. Jeb might well eat a bullet. He's been publically humiliated over and over again. A whole batch of Republicans will be untouchable after this. |
You are a little bit late to the game, the neocons have been discredited and not taken seriously for awhile now. Notice how even when other candidates try to sound tough they rule out American ground forces, except sof which seems to get a pass. The Iraq war turned America off of this stuff, and Trump wants to continue the wars, I mean what else is bombing the shi@ out of people and stealing their oil? |
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stilicho25
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 5:00 am Post subject: |
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| Leon, why do you think Trump is pro war? He castigated bush for his brothers war party ferociously last debate. Who on the democrat side has been able to nail Hillary for Libya? |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 5:14 am Post subject: |
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| Titus2 wrote: |
| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| Titus2 wrote: |
| Trump is a very strong male who has absolutely incredible persuasion, media and marketing skills. Even people who disagree with him are being influenced. |
So I gotta ask...do you really believe this? Really?
Trump is little more than an obnoxious bully with a lot of money. Grew up wealthy. Had everything given to him. His powers of persuasion, on intelligent people, would be near the zero mark. But is that one of your points? That to win this election, he needs only to influence the blind, deaf, dumb average American voter?
Not to say he won't win. I kinda hope he does. But that has more to do with how bad the other candidates are than with how 'incredible' he is.
Your message is clear about his message, but it seems you are over-rating him as a man...no? |
Trump is a magician w/r/t persuasion.
This Trump thing comes at a good time for me. I'm moving from a phase in my career where I performed a service and towards selling the service so I've been going to all these seminars and these crazy psychological evaluations and the like. Basically these people try to teach you how to act like Trump, though of course they don't reference him.
In fact, Trump attended the same church - and his father was a close friend - of the man who birthed the modern (pop) science of persuasion: Norman Vincent Peale. Werner Erhard was a close friend of Peale, and he in turn taught Steve Jobs the art of persuasion. This is the kitchen table Trump grew up sitting at. It's all corny and silly until you practice it and see how easy it is to make people align with your interests.
When you people describe Trump you're getting it all wrong. He's been taught to suppress his ego, which is why all you see is ego. The ego gets in the way of negotiation. Hurt feelings are for children. Adults want results (that's an actual tag line). What you see is him aggressively asserting his interests - which you see as being a bully or egotistical - but it's ultimately a sales strategy. The oldest strategy, in fact. Set a high bar and then compromise. The average person senses the looming compromise and - for fear of conflict - attempts to simply settle on the compromise from the onset of the negotiation (and a POTUS campaign is a long negotiation). Trump pisses on your compromise up until the point he has pushed you as far towards his desired end as possible. Confidently and assertively demanding your frame be validated influences your negotiating opponent. In this case the opponent is the American people.
Trump is very, very gifted in destroying obstacles as well. This can not be taught. He smells weakness. See the Jeb "low energy" comment followed by "more energy, I like that" in the following debate. There is no way Jeb can recover. If he acts energetic it looks like he's submissive to Trump. If he remains low energy, if validates Trump's assertion. Scott Adams calls it the "linguistic kill shot". It's so effective. Jeb is done as a public figure. To accomplish this kill shot you have to be dominant. Nobody would care if Ron Paul called Jeb 'low energy'. Even if you hate Trump (next Hitler omg) you instinctively follow his cues. That's what an alpha is.
Regarding the 'oversell strategy', for example, if Obama were skilled, he'd have started with socialized health care and settled on the 'public option'. But he started with the compromise, and gave the insurance industry what they wanted. It's all very simple when you start thinking about it.
Yes, I know you're going to wiki Peale and recite the criticism. Spare me. The only aspects that Trump internalized, best I can tell, relate to managing the ego of both yourself and your competitor. If you're married, learning to manage ego's is extremely beneficial. |
I get that Trump is decent at marketing, but shouldn't it matter what he is actually selling? There is a reason why lots of people dislike sells people, and by setting the bar as high as possible, and he running off massive amounts of the pop. Who are taking him at his word. Also, running a country is not a one off or short term business negotiation, but a series of games where if you continually set the bar high on every issue of their actors will adapt and change how they play the game as well, which includes other countries.
It's funny, i've had some of the training you've had, although as opposed to selling it was political training and media training as well as negotiation training. When you know others strategies, it gives the whole performance a flat effect. I have enjoyed watching Frank Luntz comment on Trumps performances, and have enjoyed watching his overly calculated, key word political strategy being challenged. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 5:19 am Post subject: |
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| stilicho25 wrote: |
| Leon, why do you think Trump is pro war? He castigated bush for his brothers war party ferociously last debate. Who on the democrat side has been able to nail Hillary for Libya? |
Trump talks about the military, and growing the military, pretty frequently. He talks about bombing the shi@ out of people, he talks about stealing people's oil, etc. Pro-war is not the word I would use, but peaceful isn't the word I would use either. I think voting for trump as an anti-war candidate would be a huge gamble, because who the hell knows what he actually would do. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 6:57 am Post subject: |
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| Titus2 wrote: |
| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| Titus2 wrote: |
| Trump is a very strong male who has absolutely incredible persuasion, media and marketing skills. Even people who disagree with him are being influenced. |
So I gotta ask...do you really believe this? Really?
Trump is little more than an obnoxious bully with a lot of money. Grew up wealthy. Had everything given to him. His powers of persuasion, on intelligent people, would be near the zero mark. But is that one of your points? That to win this election, he needs only to influence the blind, deaf, dumb average American voter?
Not to say he won't win. I kinda hope he does. But that has more to do with how bad the other candidates are than with how 'incredible' he is.
Your message is clear about his message, but it seems you are over-rating him as a man...no? |
Trump is a magician w/r/t persuasion.
This Trump thing comes at a good time for me. I'm moving from a phase in my career where I performed a service and towards selling the service so I've been going to all these seminars and these crazy psychological evaluations and the like. Basically these people try to teach you how to act like Trump, though of course they don't reference him.
In fact, Trump attended the same church - and his father was a close friend - of the man who birthed the modern (pop) science of persuasion: Norman Vincent Peale. Werner Erhard was a close friend of Peale, and he in turn taught Steve Jobs the art of persuasion. This is the kitchen table Trump grew up sitting at. It's all corny and silly until you practice it and see how easy it is to make people align with your interests.
When you people describe Trump you're getting it all wrong. He's been taught to suppress his ego, which is why all you see is ego. The ego gets in the way of negotiation. Hurt feelings are for children. Adults want results (that's an actual tag line). What you see is him aggressively asserting his interests - which you see as being a bully or egotistical - but it's ultimately a sales strategy. The oldest strategy, in fact. Set a high bar and then compromise. The average person senses the looming compromise and - for fear of conflict - attempts to simply settle on the compromise from the onset of the negotiation (and a POTUS campaign is a long negotiation). Trump pisses on your compromise up until the point he has pushed you as far towards his desired end as possible. Confidently and assertively demanding your frame be validated influences your negotiating opponent. In this case the opponent is the American people.
Trump is very, very gifted in destroying obstacles as well. This can not be taught. He smells weakness. See the Jeb "low energy" comment followed by "more energy, I like that" in the following debate. There is no way Jeb can recover. If he acts energetic it looks like he's submissive to Trump. If he remains low energy, if validates Trump's assertion. Scott Adams calls it the "linguistic kill shot". It's so effective. Jeb is done as a public figure. To accomplish this kill shot you have to be dominant. Nobody would care if Ron Paul called Jeb 'low energy'. Even if you hate Trump (next Hitler omg) you instinctively follow his cues. That's what an alpha is.
Regarding the 'oversell strategy', for example, if Obama were skilled, he'd have started with socialized health care and settled on the 'public option'. But he started with the compromise, and gave the insurance industry what they wanted. It's all very simple when you start thinking about it.
Yes, I know you're going to wiki Peale and recite the criticism. Spare me. The only aspects that Trump internalized, best I can tell, relate to managing the ego of both yourself and your competitor. If you're married, learning to manage ego's is extremely beneficial. |
| Quote: |
| When you people describe Trump you're getting it all wrong. He's been taught to suppress his ego, which is why all you see is ego. |
'you people'? lol 'getting it all wrong'...are you doing your Trump impersonation?
Ok...let's have some fun with this. He is suppressing his ego? When? The guy is ego maniacal. If you don't mind, I would like to hear your explanation on this.
As for the references, I am well aware of them...have been for decades. We could discuss it if you are so inclined. Are you new to their material? Perhaps that would explain a bit of your admiration for Trump.
As for Trump being a magician, I concur. All smoke and mirrors. He is not a man of substance. It's in his behavior and speech patterns. No elegance of intelligence. He can manage little more than monosyllabic repetitive sound bites. |
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Plain Meaning
Joined: 18 Oct 2014
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| Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:53 am Post subject: |
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This thread took a weird turn.
Yes, Trump had better have some special training and skills. He is running for President of the United States!
In fact, Trump is a man of substance, not smoke and mirrors and corporate parlor tricks. Just labeling him an alpha male diminishes the freshness and courage of his foreign policy ideas.
Trump's pre-Internationalist Foreign Policy
| Quote: |
Thus, beneath the bluster, the ego and the showmanship is the long-considered worldview of a man who has had problems with U.S. foreign policy for decades. Trump has thought long and hard about America’s global role and he knows what he wants to do. There is virtually no chance that he would “tack back to the center” and embrace a conservative internationalist foreign policy. If he did get elected president, he would do his utmost to liquidate the U.S.-led liberal order by ending America’s alliances, closing the open global economy, and cutting deals with Russia and China.
He would find this hard to do, not least because the entire U.S. foreign policy establishment would be opposed to him and he needs people to staff his National Security Council, State Department and Defense Department. But there is real power in the presidency, especially if there is clear guidance about the chief executive’s wishes. In any event, the mere fact that the American people would have elected somebody with a mandate to destroy the U.S.-led order might be sufficient to damage it beyond repair. |
If I am being honest, I would root for a President Trump in his battles against the Deep State to implement his Jacksonian vision. He might be a force for good and retrenchment in foreign policy.
Unfortunately, I have little hope or faith in his domestic policy. His tax plan is utter doggerel and he seems indifferent to wage increases. Meanwhile, he insincerely peddles his Muslim ban in order to play cover for his prior liberal positions, including partial-birth abortion (even I do not support partial-birth abortion!). Its clever politics, though, so give him credit for that. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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Swartz
Joined: 19 Dec 2014
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| Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| All smoke and mirrors. He is not a man of substance. It's in his behavior and speech patterns. No elegance of intelligence. He can manage little more than monosyllabic repetitive sound bites. |
This highlights the disconnect between those of us who have been paying attention to what Trump actually says, and those who have relied on the media narrative and controlled sound bites to inform their opinion of him. Those of us who understand the system he's up/playing against and pay attention to his message can't help but conclude that Trump is a mastermind. Those who are still connected to the institutional feeder tubes that condition their opinions do little more than mimic the gasps filtering down from elites that oppose him on a visceral level since he openly threatens their program (a program liberals refuse to realize is detrimental to their existence (because the modern liberal really is the ultimate useful idiot of the establishment)). I'm personally less interested in the psychological breakdown. What does it for me and many others who are aware of how our system functions against us, is the inability to go a day without a new Trumpism, however subtle or bombastic or low-brow populist it may seem to the general public, that allows us to say, “Oh, yeah, this guy gets it.” That's why the notion that he's some unintellectual buffoon is more comical than anything else. It's the exact opposite. He knows exactly what's going on. Being a JYC billionaire requires it. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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It's pretty crazy to think that there's actually a chance of seeing a Trump-Rubio-Bloomberg-Clinton-Sanders matchup in November. Let's say both parties nominate their establishment candidate and push Trump and Sanders to go independent while Bloomberg looks at the mess and decides he's just the guy to jump in and save the day.
Even crazier would be if Clinton and Rubio win the least amount in the electoral college, making the House have to vote on the other three. |
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Titus2
Joined: 06 Sep 2015
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| Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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Leon said:
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| You are a little bit late to the game, the neocons have been discredited and not taken seriously for awhile now |
Victoria Nuland is John Kerry/Cohen's #1. She's Kagan/Kaganovitch's wife. Neoconservatism is a family thing. They didn't go anywhere. Need a strong, fashy leader to extract them.
Or maybe you don't know who Nuland is?
| Plain Meaning wrote: |
Yes, Trump had better have some special training and skills. He is running for President of the United States!
In fact, Trump is a man of substance, not smoke and mirrors and corporate parlor tricks. Just labeling him an alpha male diminishes the freshness and courage of his foreign policy ideas.
If I am being honest, I would root for a President Trump in his battles against the Deep State to implement his Jacksonian vision. He might be a force for good and ret |
You're turning. You're in a stage where you're looking in yourself for permission to defy the peer group you associate with. Come November, God willing they don't kill him first, you'll vote for him.
| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
Ok...let's have some fun with this. He is suppressing his ego? When? The guy is ego maniacal. If you don't mind, I would like to hear your explanation on this. |
Sure. You see ego because he's assertive. Normal people are not assertive b/c they're afraid of conflict. Trump suppresses his ego so that he can walk on top of people who are scared of conflict.
He legitimately doesn't care what you think. He sees your opinion of him as a thing to be manipulated towards his goals. Suppressing the ego means putting it in an iron bubble where it is immune to outside criticism. This allows you to behave in ways that other people find shocking, but persuasive (your mind trends towards thoughts of 'why is he so confident' and then answers its own question. It's our lizard brain).
| Leon wrote: |
It's funny, i've had some of the training you've had, although as opposed to selling it was political training and media training as well as negotiation training. When you know others strategies, it gives the whole performance a flat effect. I have enjoyed watching Frank Luntz comment on Trumps performances, and have enjoyed watching his overly calculated, key word political strategy being challenged. |
Leon, Frank Luntz is an autist and not effective in countering or even describing Trump. I suggest you return to first principles and start over. A major rule is no status-signaling when the status is irrelevant or unverifiable (picture a guy in a pub trying to win an argument b/c 'my uncle said'. It makes people roll their eyes.) You lean heavily on a 'I'm me' frame for argumentation, when on the internet "I'm me" is ineffective. Maybe pay better attention next time.
Last edited by Titus2 on Fri Feb 19, 2016 8:36 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
It's pretty crazy to think that there's actually a chance of seeing a Trump-Rubio-Bloomberg-Clinton-Sanders matchup in November. Let's say both parties nominate their establishment candidate and push Trump and Sanders to go independent while Bloomberg looks at the mess and decides he's just the guy to jump in and save the day.
Even crazier would be if Clinton and Rubio win the least amount in the electoral college, making the House have to vote on the other three. |
Sanders wouldn't run as an independent, and Bloomberg wouldn't run if Clinton got the Dem nomination. The best you can hope for is Trump-Rubio-Sanders-Bloomberg (but I doubt Bloomberg would run if Rubio were the GOP nominee). |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Plain Meaning wrote: |
This thread took a weird turn.
Yes, Trump had better have some special training and skills. He is running for President of the United States!
In fact, Trump is a man of substance, not smoke and mirrors and corporate parlor tricks. Just labeling him an alpha male diminishes the freshness and courage of his foreign policy ideas.
Trump's pre-Internationalist Foreign Policy
| Quote: |
Thus, beneath the bluster, the ego and the showmanship is the long-considered worldview of a man who has had problems with U.S. foreign policy for decades. Trump has thought long and hard about America’s global role and he knows what he wants to do. There is virtually no chance that he would “tack back to the center” and embrace a conservative internationalist foreign policy. If he did get elected president, he would do his utmost to liquidate the U.S.-led liberal order by ending America’s alliances, closing the open global economy, and cutting deals with Russia and China.
He would find this hard to do, not least because the entire U.S. foreign policy establishment would be opposed to him and he needs people to staff his National Security Council, State Department and Defense Department. But there is real power in the presidency, especially if there is clear guidance about the chief executive’s wishes. In any event, the mere fact that the American people would have elected somebody with a mandate to destroy the U.S.-led order might be sufficient to damage it beyond repair. |
If I am being honest, I would root for a President Trump in his battles against the Deep State to implement his Jacksonian vision. He might be a force for good and retrenchment in foreign policy.
Unfortunately, I have little hope or faith in his domestic policy. His tax plan is utter doggerel and he seems indifferent to wage increases. Meanwhile, he insincerely peddles his Muslim ban in order to play cover for his prior liberal positions, including partial-birth abortion (even I do not support partial-birth abortion!). Its clever politics, though, so give him credit for that. |
I'd vote for him over Clinton, unless he runs as an independent. In that case, I'll vote for her out of fear of the GOP nominee winning. There is no one worse than Cruz. He really is a POS. |
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Titus2
Joined: 06 Sep 2015
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| Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| mithridates wrote: |
It's pretty crazy to think that there's actually a chance of seeing a Trump-Rubio-Bloomberg-Clinton-Sanders matchup in November. Let's say both parties nominate their establishment candidate and push Trump and Sanders to go independent while Bloomberg looks at the mess and decides he's just the guy to jump in and save the day.
Even crazier would be if Clinton and Rubio win the least amount in the electoral college, making the House have to vote on the other three. |
Sanders wouldn't run as an independent, and Bloomberg wouldn't run if Clinton got the Dem nomination. The best you can hope for is Trump-Rubio-Sanders-Bloomberg (but I doubt Bloomberg would run if Rubio were the GOP nominee). |
Bloomberg would hand Trump a victory. He's 5 feet tall. He's just massaging his ego. You're right that Sanders wouldn't go independent, he doesn't have it in him. Clinton - I believe - has some serious health problems and additionally is looking very vulnerable. Trump will obliterate her. If you don't like Trump and you don't want Clinton, you're hoping that Joe Biden jumps in. Biden is the only likely candidate who can beat Trump. |
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Titus2
Joined: 06 Sep 2015
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| Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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he seems indifferent to wage increases.
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I missed this in my prior reply.
There is no better way to appreciate wages than to restrict immigration and diminish the ability of firms to move production off shore. Trump is the only candidate that would push wages up. |
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