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trueblue
Joined: 15 Jun 2014
Location: In between the lines
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 Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 5:37 am Post subject: |
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Yep, I knew some would come out of the wood work, spewing their false enlightened maxims of defection and blame.
Islamophobia? Hardly. Poor attempt there, SR.
Diverstiy? So, when has that actually worked, Central Cali? War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, right?
Muppets.
Muslims should take care of muslims. They do not belong in the west (only with a few exceptions), as they do not assimilate. So, I am all in favor of Europe closing its doors to them. And, the U.S. should follow suit....quickly. |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 5:42 am Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
| Depends on how Sweden is treating its immigrants. |
A fun experiment that addresses this concern: Google "Swedish train station attacks" and see how long it takes you to recognize the extreme effort of the media to ignore and excuse the actions of migrant "children" by blaming Swedish culture and Swedish men. |
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trueblue
Joined: 15 Jun 2014
Location: In between the lines
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 6:07 am Post subject: |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
| CentralCali wrote: |
| Depends on how Sweden is treating its immigrants. |
A fun experiment that addresses this concern: Google "Swedish train station attacks" and see how long it takes you to recognize the extreme effort of the media to ignore and excuse the actions of migrant "children" by blaming Swedish culture and Swedish men. |
Don't worry...SR and CC will do a good job of deflecting, rationalizing and blaming....but not blaming the ignorant people/culture from which the problems arise. |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 6:44 am Post subject: |
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| trueblue wrote: |
| Don't worry...SR and CC will do a good job of deflecting, rationalizing and blaming....but not blaming the ignorant people/culture from which the problems arise. |
Conversations about Korea excluded, generally the worst I see Steelrails do is seek compromise where none is required, a far lesser sin than blaming the hospitality of a host nation for the misbehavior of her rescued refugees. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| trueblue wrote: |
| geldedgoat wrote: |
| CentralCali wrote: |
| Depends on how Sweden is treating its immigrants. |
A fun experiment that addresses this concern: Google "Swedish train station attacks" and see how long it takes you to recognize the extreme effort of the media to ignore and excuse the actions of migrant "children" by blaming Swedish culture and Swedish men. |
Don't worry...SR and CC will do a good job of deflecting, rationalizing and blaming....but not blaming the ignorant people/culture from which the problems arise. |
I don't blame Sweden or Belgium or the people there. I do blame governmental policies of Middle East intervention that certain leaders chose at the time. Really, there out to be a way to both provide help for refugees and at the same time have some sort of method to reduce the chance of terror to virtually nil. Will there be problems? Of course, but those problems can be solved. Now if you want to say that your society already has significant problems and can't handle any more, that's fine, but please don't claim that your society is some kind of utopia that is about to be ruined by these refugees.
The people that rant the most about the Muslims ruining everything are the same people who rant about the liberals, Mexicans, atheists, gays, etc. ruining the country depending on what the big story is in the news cycle. Each one gets it's week as the most dangerous group in America. When it gets to that level, it's clear that rationality is gone and it's xenophobia instead. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Now if you want to say that your society already has significant problems and can't handle any more, that's fine, but please don't claim that your society is some kind of utopia that is about to be ruined by these refugees. |
Are you incapable of making a point without relying on absurd strawmen arguments? European countries were not and never have been utopias, but mass Muslim migration is bringing a whole host of problems from gang rapes to welfare dependency, to violence and no-go zones.
Outside of kebabs and falafel, how has mass Muslim migration improved the lives of the average Belgian, for example?
As an aside, Muslims make up around 6% of the Belgian population, but almost 50% of its prison population. Such enrichment! |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Really, there out to be a way to both provide help for refugees and at the same time have some sort of method to reduce the chance of terror to virtually nil. |
There is: the absolute abolition of refugee-based immigration coupled with robust funding for refugee camps. Remember, a real refugee, first and foremost, is someone who is displaced by war but ultimately wants to return home once it is safe. Anyone who flees their country, reaches safety, and then says, "You know, Sweden seems nice, let's avoid registering in Greece (or where ever) and apply there," is no longer a refugee, but rather, is simply an immigrant trying to avoid the normal immigration procedure. In other words, you assist actual refugees by funding the camps, and insulate your society from increased tensions by requiring all would-be immigrants to go through a proper immigration procedure.
Beyond that, it would be advisable to include a reasonably strict cultural criterion in immigration policy: before any kind of permanent status is given, or even seriously considered, ensuring that the party in question speaks the common language, understands the prevailing culture, and can reasonably merge into that culture to at least some extent, would be conducive to social harmony. Individuals like this are a fine fit for Europe, and you can accept individuals like him while rejecting people who would not fit in quite so well. That's not "racism" or "islamophobia" or so forth, it's just good sense. Of course, in order to learn that lesson, the fetishization of "diversity" as some sort of absolute good would need to end. If you want to leave your homeland and move to a new country, it does not make sense to drag your way of life with you, because your way of life, at large, is probably what made your homeland the sort of place you wanted to abandon anyway. This, again, comes back to why most "refugees" are a poor fit for Europe: if they do not actually want to live like Europeans, then their presence in large numbers in Europe will simply cause their new homes to trend in the direction of the very countries from which they are fleeing. It's understandable enough that they might be covetous of European levels of prosperity, it is, but that prosperity is largely a function of mode of life and the character of the populace.
Europe would do itself a favor by looking to East Asia for guidance here. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Really, there out to be a way to both provide help for refugees and at the same time have some sort of method to reduce the chance of terror to virtually nil. |
There is: the absolute abolition of refugee-based immigration coupled with robust funding for refugee camps. Remember, a real refugee, first and foremost, is someone who is displaced by war but ultimately wants to return home once it is safe. Anyone who flees their country, reaches safety, and then says, "You know, Sweden seems nice, let's avoid registering in Greece (or where ever) and apply there," is no longer a refugee, but rather, is simply an immigrant trying to avoid the normal immigration procedure. In other words, you assist actual refugees by funding the camps, and insulate your society from increased tensions by requiring all would-be immigrants to go through a proper immigration procedure.
Beyond that, it would be advisable to include a reasonably strict cultural criterion in immigration policy: before any kind of permanent status is given, or even seriously considered, ensuring that the party in question speaks the common language, understands the prevailing culture, and can reasonably merge into that culture to at least some extent, would be conducive to social harmony. Individuals like this are a fine fit for Europe, and you can accept individuals like him while rejecting people who would not fit in quite so well. That's not "racism" or "islamophobia" or so forth, it's just good sense. Of course, in order to learn that lesson, the fetishization of "diversity" as some sort of absolute good would need to end. If you want to leave your homeland and move to a new country, it does not make sense to drag your way of life with you, because your way of life, at large, is probably what made your homeland the sort of place you wanted to abandon anyway. This, again, comes back to why most "refugees" are a poor fit for Europe: if they do not actually want to live like Europeans, then their presence in large numbers in Europe will simply cause their new homes to trend in the direction of the very countries from which they are fleeing. It's understandable enough that they might be covetous of European levels of prosperity, it is, but that prosperity is largely a function of mode of life and the character of the populace.
Europe would do itself a favor by looking to East Asia for guidance here. |
Support the refugee camps, sure, but bad luck to be the country nearby that has to host said camps, especially when your country already has stability and refugee issues (Turkey, Jordan, Lebanon). I agree in general, but in specific to host that many refugees in neighboring countries is untenable.
While I actually mostly agree, what frustrates me is the inability for many in the west to take responsibility for their countries decisions or actions. If you look at the number of Muslims that the west has killed vs the number of westerners killed by Muslims it isn't ambiguous which side comes out ahead. This isn't even a recent phenomenon. The west has played politics in the region like it was a game, sponsoring this dictator or that dictator, turning support for a small country in the region into a litmus test for anyone considering public service, and going to war with the full expectation that it will be cheap, as if you can declare war and keeping over there. As if by using suicide vests it becomes less civilized than Dresden or Hiroshima.
I don't think that the current refugee situation is good for anyone, including the refugees. There is an important discussion to be had about that, and I think Europe has started that. However, to act like these people are just unwelcome guests who came from thin air and have nothing to do with the west is flatly false. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| ... bad luck to be the country nearby that has to host said camps ... |
Yes, there's an element of bad luck in that, just like there's an element of good luck in Turkey being on Europe's doorstep. To some extent, that's just life. But that's also why providing adequate funding and relief makes sense, so that those countries don't have to bear that burden alone.
| Leon wrote: |
| While I actually mostly agree, what frustrates me is the inability for many in the west to take responsibility for their countries decisions or actions. If you look at the number of Muslims that the west has killed vs the number of westerners killed by Muslims it isn't ambiguous which side comes out ahead. |
I agree with that, and I don't even disagree that it makes sense to accept a measure of responsibility, which is part of the justification for western countries funding refugees camps in the first place. But importing massive numbers of culturally dissimilar Muslims into Europe isn't "taking responsibility" so much as setting the stage for future tensions which could explode into something worse. Punishing the European working classes for the sins of the European political classes through mass immigration is more likely to result in atrocity than reform. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| ... bad luck to be the country nearby that has to host said camps ... |
Yes, there's an element of bad luck in that, just like there's an element of good luck in Turkey being on Europe's doorstep. To some extent, that's just life. But that's also why providing adequate funding and relief makes sense, so that those countries don't have to bear that burden alone.
| Leon wrote: |
| While I actually mostly agree, what frustrates me is the inability for many in the west to take responsibility for their countries decisions or actions. If you look at the number of Muslims that the west has killed vs the number of westerners killed by Muslims it isn't ambiguous which side comes out ahead. |
I agree with that, and I don't even disagree that it makes sense to accept a measure of responsibility, which is part of the justification for western countries funding refugees camps in the first place. But importing massive numbers of culturally dissimilar Muslims into Europe isn't "taking responsibility" so much as setting the stage for future tensions which could explode into something worse. Punishing the European working classes for the sins of the European political classes through mass immigration is more likely to result in atrocity than reform. |
Well yes, but we are where we are, and it is rather difficult to undo everything that has been done, despite how easy some (such as Swartz) believe. It's like asking how you solve an impossible problem. Funding refugee camps is great, but refugee camps are what precipitated the Lebanese civil war, and almost led to the assassination of the Jordanian king, and I cannot see the PLO and then Palestinian situation as being a greater problem than Syria. The refugees have not been the terrorists so far it's been citizens, so unless you make a mockery of the concept of citizenry I'm not sure what you can do about it. I do know that segregated slums is not diversity or multicultralism, and that it seems that the US has done far better than Europe, but perhaps it is not a high bar.
I saw that Clinton buyout a plan for ISIS this week, and if you switched her name with GW Bush's no one would notice any difference. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| The refugees have not been the terrorists so far it's been citizens, so unless you make a mockery of the concept of citizenry I'm not sure what you can do about it. |
I've seen this talking point repeated again and again, but it confuses me, because when I read it, I take away the exact opposite lesson from that which it is intended to impart. The lesson I see here is that when you accept someone into your country, you are not simply accepting them, but also their children, and their children's children, and so on and so forth. Yes, many individuals who have been involved in such crimes are citizens, which in this context is to say that they are the descendants of immigrants. One cannot change the past, but one can learn from it and avoid repeating the same mistakes in the future. Even if every single "refugee" were a gracious, thankful, peaceable individual who was simply overjoyed to have a new homeland, their children will feel the same entitlement as would any other citizen, and the results will be predictable.
| Leon wrote: |
| I do know that segregated slums is not diversity or multicultralism, and that it seems that the US has done far better than Europe, but perhaps it is not a high bar. |
It's hard to say exactly how much better the United States has really done in this regard, because the combination of low population density and dubious media ethics leaves us with little real information on the matter. I would personally guess that America has done better vis a vis it's relationship with its Muslim immigrants on account of its greater control over immigration from Old World countries, but I don't really know to what extent that's true. The only reason Europe's problem is being talked about at this point is because it's gotten sufficiently bad that the issue can no longer be brushed aside or covered up by well-intentioned-but-ultimately-irresponsible actors. Incidentally, that's exactly the point I was making to you recently when you suggested immigration isn't an issue in America: this tendency to absolutely ignore and dismiss problems until they move into a critical phase produces totally needless suffering and dysfunction. Ignore any problem which isn't yet a crisis and the reward will be living in a state of near-perpetual crisis. |
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Plain Meaning
Joined: 18 Oct 2014
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| Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 12:59 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
Europe would do itself a favor by looking to East Asia for guidance here. |
You mean European countries could stop or avoid bombing ISIS?
Belgian F-16s hit ISIS
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Between Sept. 24, 2014, and July 2, six Belgian F-16s flew 796 sorties over Iraq, conducting 163 air strikes and accounting for 5.5% of coalition efforts.
Belgian F-16s conducted air interdiction against ISIS, provided close air support to Iraqi and Kurdish troops, and flew reconnaissance missions. |
I refuse to discuss immigration policy in this thread. There are other threads where it is relevant. This is not one of them.
This thread should focus on Belgian and European security policy and their war on ISIS. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 2:56 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| The refugees have not been the terrorists so far it's been citizens, so unless you make a mockery of the concept of citizenry I'm not sure what you can do about it. |
I've seen this talking point repeated again and again, but it confuses me, because when I read it, I take away the exact opposite lesson from that which it is intended to impart. The lesson I see here is that when you accept someone into your country, you are not simply accepting them, but also their children, and their children's children, and so on and so forth. Yes, many individuals who have been involved in such crimes are citizens, which in this context is to say that they are the descendants of immigrants. One cannot change the past, but one can learn from it and avoid repeating the same mistakes in the future. Even if every single "refugee" were a gracious, thankful, peaceable individual who was simply overjoyed to have a new homeland, their children will feel the same entitlement as would any other citizen, and the results will be predictable.
| Leon wrote: |
| I do know that segregated slums is not diversity or multicultralism, and that it seems that the US has done far better than Europe, but perhaps it is not a high bar. |
It's hard to say exactly how much better the United States has really done in this regard, because the combination of low population density and dubious media ethics leaves us with little real information on the matter. I would personally guess that America has done better vis a vis it's relationship with its Muslim immigrants on account of its greater control over immigration from Old World countries, but I don't really know to what extent that's true. The only reason Europe's problem is being talked about at this point is because it's gotten sufficiently bad that the issue can no longer be brushed aside or covered up by well-intentioned-but-ultimately-irresponsible actors. Incidentally, that's exactly the point I was making to you recently when you suggested immigration isn't an issue in America: this tendency to absolutely ignore and dismiss problems until they move into a critical phase produces totally needless suffering and dysfunction. Ignore any problem which isn't yet a crisis and the reward will be living in a state of near-perpetual crisis. |
As to the first point, I don't think I meant what you think. This is a thread about the current attacks, which did not feature refugees, as far as we know now. This is not to say there will never be any, but in this thread it is germane to point this out.
As the us, I could be wrong, I haven't been there for almost a decade. When I think of immigration problems, I think about how inefficient uscis is with processing times, not terror. Right wing groups kill more than Muslim ones here or do random people with guns. I guess I just don't see any sort of coming immigration crisis in the us that isn't fabricated for political advantage. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 4:30 am Post subject: |
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| I refuse to discuss immigration policy in this thread. There are other threads where it is relevant. This is not one of them. |
These attacks are the direct result of allowing millions of Muslims into the West. Immigration policy is entirely relevant. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 4:33 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| This is a thread about the current attacks, which did not feature refugees, as far as we know now. |
My point was that it's not merely the refugees themselves who you have to worry about in this regard, but also their own future descendants, just as the descendants of current immigrants commit present crimes or exacerbate social tensions. Future descendants who will likely themselves be citizens, and thus nothing can be done about them without "mak[ing] a mockery of the concept of citizenry" as you put it. It's the same thing: ignoring, or even actively distracting from a mounting problem until the problem is no longer easily solvable, at which point the difficulty itself is cited as a reason to continue to avoid resolution.
| Leon wrote: |
| Right wing groups kill more than Muslim ones here or do random people with guns. I guess I just don't see any sort of coming immigration crisis in the us that isn't fabricated for political advantage. |
Neither right wing groups nor immigrants are particularly problematic because of murder rates. |
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