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trueblue
Joined: 15 Jun 2014
Location: In between the lines
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 Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 11:24 pm Post subject: South Chna Sea |
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This is interesting, with potential to REALLY flare up.
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/S/SOUTH_CHINA_SEA_RULING?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2016-07-12-06-24-07
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BEIJING (AP) -- China blamed the Philippines for stirring up trouble and issued a policy paper Wednesday calling the islands in the South China Sea its "inherent territory," a day after an international tribunal said China had no legal basis for its expansive claims.
"It is the Philippines that has created and stirred up the trouble," Vice Foreign Minister Liu Zhenmin said in introducing the paper.
The Philippines, under a U.N. treaty governing the seas, sought arbitration from an international tribunal on several issues related to its long-running territorial disputes with China.
The tribunal in The Hague, Netherlands, rejected China's claims in a landmark ruling that also found the country had aggravated the seething regional dispute and violated the Philippines' maritime rights by building up artificial islands that destroyed coral reefs and by disrupting fishing and oil exploration.
While the decision is seen as a major legal declaration regarding one of the world's most contested regions, its impact is uncertain given the tribunal has no power of enforcement.
In the new policy paper, China asserts its sovereignty over South China Sea islands and their surrounding waters and opposes other countries' "illegal claims and occupation."
The paper blames the Philippines for violating an agreement with China to settle the disputes through bilateral negotiation and says Manila "distorted facts and concocted a pack of lies" to push forward the arbitration proceedings.
Still, Liu said that China remains committed to negotiations with the Philippines, noting new Philippine President Rodrigo Duterte's positive remarks on the issue.
"China stands ready to work with the new Philippine government," he said, adding that "early removal of obstacles posed by the arbitration case" would help improve relations.
While the findings cannot reverse China's actions, it still constitutes a rebuke, carrying with it the force of the international community's opinion. It also gives heart to small countries in Asia that have helplessly chafed at China's expansionism, backed by its military and economic power.
"The Philippines strongly affirms its respect for this milestone decision as an important contribution to ongoing efforts in addressing disputes in the South China Sea," Philippine Foreign Secretary Perfecto Yasay said Tuesday, calling on "all those concerned to exercise restraint and sobriety."
Former Foreign Secretary Albert del Rosario, who helped oversee the filing of the case, said the ruling underscored "our collective belief that right is might, and that international law is the great equalizer among states."
Six regional governments have overlapping territorial claims in the South China Sea, waters that are rich in fishing stocks and potential energy resources and where an estimated $5 trillion in global trade passes each year.
The disputes have increased friction between China and the United States, which has ramped up its military presence in the region as China has expanded its navy's reach farther offshore.
White House spokesman Josh Earnest encouraged all parties to "acknowledge the final and binding nature of this tribunal."
Speaking to reporters aboard Air Force One as President Barack Obama was flying to Dallas, Earnest said the United States seeks a peaceful resolution to disputes and competing claims in the region, while preserving freedom of navigation and commerce.
Earnest also urged the parties not to use the ruling as an opportunity to engage in escalatory or provocative actions.
U.S. Defense Secretary Ash Carter said at a news conference in Afghanistan that the ruling is an opportunity for everyone in the region to act in a sensible way in accordance with the rule of law in order to settle disputes.
The five-member panel from the Permanent Court of Arbitration unanimously concluded China had violated its obligations to refrain from aggravating the dispute while the settlement process was ongoing.
It also found that China had interfered with Philippine petroleum exploration at Reed Bank, tried to stop fishing by Philippine vessels and failed to prevent Chinese fishermen from the Philippines' 200-nautical mile exclusive economic zone.
China, which boycotted the entire proceedings, reiterated that it did not accept the panel's jurisdiction. China "solemnly declares that the award is null and void and has no binding force. China neither accepts nor recognizes it," the Foreign Ministry said.
Australian Foreign Minister Julie Bishop said Wednesday that China's reputation and ambitions of becoming a world leader would suffer if it ignored the South China Sea ruling.
"To ignore it would be a serious international transgression," Bishop told Australian Broadcasting Corp. "There would be strong reputational costs."
Japan's Foreign Minister Fumio Kishida said the tribunal's decision is "final and legally binding." He said in a statement that "Japan strongly expects that the parties' compliance with this award will eventually lead to the peaceful settlement of disputes in the South China Sea."
Beijing says vast areas of the South China Sea have been Chinese territory since ancient times and demarcated its modern claims with the so-called nine-dash line, a map that was submitted under the U.N. treaty. The tribunal said that any historical resource rights China may have had were wiped out if they are incompatible with exclusive economic zones established under the U.N. treaty, which both countries have signed.
It also criticized China for building a large artificial island on Mischief Reef, saying it caused "permanent irreparable harm" to the coral reef ecosystem and permanently destroyed evidence of the natural conditions of the feature.
Just before the panel announced its ruling, a busload of Chinese tourists arrived outside the court building in The Hague and joined a handful of other protesters shouting down three people calling for China to leave Philippine waters. In Manila, dozens of rallying Filipinos jumped for joy, wept, embraced each other and waved Philippine flags after news of their victory. One held up a poster that said: "Philippine sovereignty, non-negotiable."
The aftermath of the ruling could be greatly influenced by the new Philippine president, who took office late last month and inherited a case filed by his predecessor. Duterte has spoken of having friendlier relations with China and said last week his government stood ready to talk to Beijing if it got a favorable ruling. It remains to be seen, however, how far Duterte can stray from Manila's previously critical stance, given growing nationalist sentiment in the Philippines against China's actions.
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TorontoToronto
Joined: 20 Jun 2016
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| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 4:46 am Post subject: |
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Without a powerful blue water navy, China would have a very hard time projecting credible power over a long period of time. They don't have much experience engaging in such operations. They have created an immobile aircraft carrier which they can fly some planes out of, certainly. But any modern destroyer would blow them out of the sky if they so threatened. Although mostly only the USA and Singapore have modern warships in the region.
I suppose China appreciates it may only kick off an arms race in the region, one the USA is happy to fuel. Whatever China hopes to profit may be offset by having to counter up-arming neighbors whose joint populations are about half a billion people. As well, China will only drive half a billion people MORE into the USA sphere of control. Philippines is on side. Vietnam fought a more recent war with China than the USA. While Vietnam can look at the war with the USA as an undisputed victory (and feel like they can enter improved relations with the USA as more of an equal than a defeated vassal state), the Sino-Vietnamese war was a bit more of a draw and you can bet Vietnam wouldn't mind a chance at a deciding goal.
I don't think Malaysia and Indonesia would ally more closely with the USA but they already have very hostile feelings towards the Chinese within their own borders (a typical story of a visible minority that does well in the role of merchant class and then causes resentment by the indigenous population during harder economic times). |
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trueblue
Joined: 15 Jun 2014
Location: In between the lines
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| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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| TorontoToronto wrote: |
Without a powerful blue water navy, China would have a very hard time projecting credible power over a long period of time. They don't have much experience engaging in such operations. They have created an immobile aircraft carrier which they can fly some planes out of, certainly. But any modern destroyer would blow them out of the sky if they so threatened. Although mostly only the USA and Singapore have modern warships in the region.
I suppose China appreciates it may only kick off an arms race in the region, one the USA is happy to fuel. Whatever China hopes to profit may be offset by having to counter up-arming neighbors whose joint populations are about half a billion people. As well, China will only drive half a billion people MORE into the USA sphere of control. Philippines is on side. Vietnam fought a more recent war with China than the USA. While Vietnam can look at the war with the USA as an undisputed victory (and feel like they can enter improved relations with the USA as more of an equal than a defeated vassal state), the Sino-Vietnamese war was a bit more of a draw and you can bet Vietnam wouldn't mind a chance at a deciding goal.
I don't think Malaysia and Indonesia would ally more closely with the USA but they already have very hostile feelings towards the Chinese within their own borders (a typical story of a visible minority that does well in the role of merchant class and then causes resentment by the indigenous population during harder economic times). |
Well said. Though, I do not think it will be long until they cross over from brown water to blue water...
I can't disagree with your input...important geo-political dynamics/relationships are in place or still evolving (or devolving).
But...the question is, what will be the mode of action if China simply says "FU World Tribunal"? |
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Plain Meaning
Joined: 18 Oct 2014
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| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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I could really get into all this for you. As I am still reading the 500-page decision, I am going to do something else instead.
http://cnnpressroom.blogs.cnn.com/2016/06/03/tapper-to-trump-is-that-not-the-definition-of-racism/
| Quote: |
TAPPER: I want to ask you about comments you made about the judge...
TRUMP: Sure.
TAPPER: - in the Trump University case.
TRUMP: Sure.
TAPPER: You said that you thought it was a conflict of interest that he was the judge because he's of Mexican heritage, even though he's from Indiana.
TRUMP: (INAUDIBLE).
TAPPER: Hillary Clinton said that that is a racist attack on a federal judge.
TRUMP: Oh, you know, she's so wonderful. You know, I mean here's a woman that should be put in jail for what she did with her emails and she's commenting on this.
TAPPER: But what about (INAUDIBLE)...
TRUMP: Let me just tell you...
TAPPER: (INAUDIBLE).
TRUMP: - let me just tell you (INAUDIBLE).
I have a case where thousands of people have taken this course and thousands and thousands of people have said great reviews, great reviews. Fortunately, just about everybody that took the courses have signed a review, an evaluation, they call it.
And it's gotten tremendous marks. Thousands - I don't mean like two people, I mean thousands of people.
TAPPER: Right.
TRUMP: OK. I have a situation where the woman that brought the case brought the case. She's the plaintiff. She was deposed. She was found to be a disaster for them as a witness, because she gave an evaluation that was like the best evaluation you've even heard - wait just one second.
TAPPER: OK.
TRUMP: And she did a tape like from your camera saying that this school was fantastic. It was fantastic.
They went to the judge and they said, your honor, we don't want her anymore to be our plaintiff so we said let's dismiss the case. That's OK. Let's dismiss the case.
And he said, no, I won't dismiss the case and she doesn't have to be the plaintiff
TAPPER: But what -
TRUMP: Let me tell you...
TAPPER: - does that have to do with his heritage?
TRUMP: I'll tell you what it has to do. I have had ruling after ruling after ruling that's been bad rulings, OK?
I've been treated very unfairly. Beforehand, we had another judge. If that judge was still there, this case would have been over two years ago.
Let me just tell you, I have had horrible rules. I've been treated very unfairly by this judge. Now, this judge is of Mexican heritage. I'm building a wall, OK?
I'm building a wall. I am going to do very well with the Hispanics, the Mexicans (INAUDIBLE)...
TAPPER: So no Mexican judge could ever be involved in a case...
TRUMP: Well?
TAPPER: - that involves you?
TRUMP: No, he's a member of a society where, you know, very pro-Mexico and that's fine. It's all fine. But I think...
TAPPER: Except that you're calling into question...
TRUMP: - I think he should...
TAPPER: - his heritage.
TRUMP: - recuse himself...
TAPPER: Because he's Latino?
TRUMP: - then you also say does he know the lawyer on the other side?
I mean does he know the lawyer, the, you know, a lot of people say yes. I don't know.
TAPPER: But I'm not talking about that.
TRUMP: Well, no, that's another...
TAPPER: I'm talking about the...
TRUMP: - that's another problem.
TAPPER: But you're invoking his race when talking about whether or not...
TRUMP: Here's what I'm (INAUDIBLE)...
TAPPER: - he can do his job.
TRUMP: Jake, I'm building a wall, OK?
I'm building a wall. I'm trying to keep business out of Mexico. Mexico is fine. There's nothing...
TAPPER: But he's American. He's an American.
TRUMP: - the Mexican - he's of Mexican heritage and he's very proud of it, as I am where I come from, my parents.
TAPPER: But he's an American. You keep talking about...
TRUMP: Jake...
TAPPER: - it's a conflict of interest...
TRUMP: - Jake, Jake...
TAPPER: - because of Mexico.
TRUMP: Are you ready?
I have a case that should have been dismissed already. I have thousands of people saying Trump University is fantastic, OK?
I have a case that should have been dismissed. I have a judge that never ever gives a (INAUDIBLE). Now, we lose the plaintiff he lets the plaintiff of the case out.
So why isn't he canceling the case?
So we thought we won the case.
TAPPER: So you disagree with his rulings...
TRUMP: No, no.
TAPPER: - I totally understand that.
TRUMP: No. Not me.
TAPPER: But you're sa...
TRUMP: I've had lawyers come up to me and say you are being treated so unfairly, it's unbelievable.
TAPPER: Isn't...
TRUMP: You know the plaintiffs in the case have all said wonderful things about the school and they're suing.
You know why they're suing?
Because they want to get their money back.
TAPPER: I don't really want to litigate the case...
TRUMP: You have to...
TAPPER: - of Trump University...
TRUMP: - because if he was...
TAPPER: What a...
TRUMP: - was giving me fair rulings, I wouldn't say that.
TAPPER: My question is...
TRUMP: But, Jake...
TAPPER: Yes?
TRUMP: - if you were giving me fair rulings, I wouldn't be talking to this way. He's giving me horrible rulings...
TAPPER: But I don't care if you criticize him. That's fine. You can criticize every decision. What I'm saying is if you invoke his race as a reason why he can't do his job...
TRUMP: I think that's why he's doing it. But...
TAPPER: (INAUDIBLE).
TRUMP: I think that's why he's doing it.
TAPPER: When Hillary Clinton says it's a racist attack...
TRUMP: Hillary - Hillary Clinton is a stiff. If Hillary Clinton becomes president...
TAPPER: But Paul Ryan today...
TRUMP: - I mean...
TAPPER: - Paul Ryan today said he - he didn't care for the way that you were attacking this judge.
TRUMP: Look, I'm just telling you. Paul Ryan doesn't know the case. Here's the story.
TAPPER: Isn't it the definite...
TRUMP: I should have won this case on summary judgment. This is not a case - this is a case I should have won on summary judgment. Do you know the law firm paid Hillary Clinton hundreds of thousands of dollars to make speeches?
Do you know the law firm has...
TAPPER: I do. And we've reported it.
TRUMP: Oh, you do?
TAPPER: We've re- we've reported it on my show.
TRUMP: OK.
TAPPER: In fact.
TRUMP: OK, good. Well, I'm glad. You're the only one. The law firm...
TAPPER: (INAUDIBLE)...
TRUMP: Wait a minute. The law firm paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to Hillary Clinton for speeches.
TAPPER: Before either of you were president - were running for president...
TRUMP: She wasn't working. Everybody fell asleep during the speech.
TAPPER: Before either of you were running for president, they did.
But here's the - just the fundamental question.
TRUMP: Do you know that they've contributed tremendous amounts of money to her campaign?
TAPPER: Yes.
TRUMP: Do you know they've contributed a lot of money to Eric Schneiderman, the New York attorney general?
TAPPER: Here is my question.
TRUMP: No, no, do you know that?
TAPPER: I did not know that.
TRUMP: Do you know that these people went to every attorney general, practically, in the country that they could and do you know this case was turned down by almost every attorney general, from Texas to Florida to many of these states?
TAPPER: Is it not, when Hillary Clinton says this is a racist attack and you reject that, if you are saying he can't do his job because of his race, is that not the definition of racism?
TRUMP: No, I don't think so at all.
TAPPER: No?
TRUMP: No. He's proud of his heritage. I - I respect him for that.
TAPPER: But you're saying he can't do his job because of that.
TRUMP: Look, he's proud of his heritage, OK. I'm building a wall. Now, I think I'm going to do very well with Hispanics.
TAPPER: He's a legal citizen...
TRUMP: You know why I'm going to do well with Hispanics?
Because I'm going to bring back jobs and they're going to get jobs right now. They're going to get jobs. I think I'm going to do very well with Hispanics.
But we're building a wall. He's a Mexican. We're building a wall between here and Mexico. The answer is, he is giving us very unfair rulings, rulings that people can't even believe. This case should have ended years ago on summary judgment. The best lawyers - I have spoken to so many lawyers, they said this is not a case, this is a case that should have ended.
TAPPER: I have...
TRUMP: This judge is giving us unfair rulings.
Now I say why?
Well, I want to - I'm building a wall, OK, and it's a wall between Mexico, not another country...
TAPPER: But he's not...
TRUMP: - (INAUDIBLE).
TAPPER: - he's not from Mexico.
TRUMP: In my opinion...
TAPPER: He's for Indiana.
TRUMP: - he is - his Mexican heritage. And he's very proud of it.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
TAPPER: You can see my entire interview with Donald Trump this weekend on "STATE OF THE UNION."
That was just a taste for you. |
Now replace TRUMP with CHINA and any reference to the TRUMP UNIVERSITY litigation with the SOUTH SEA arbitration. Replace any reference to MEXICAN heritage with JAPANESE nationality. Replace any reference to WALL with MAN-MADE ISLAND. Then you get a pretty good idea of how Chinese have responded to this. |
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TorontoToronto
Joined: 20 Jun 2016
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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I'd also add the USA probably kicked a bit of this off as well. The Gulf War spooked China. China long felt comfortable with its massive land army. It worked in Korea. Just throw waves and waves of PLA bodies at the USA. However, China saw how a large land army, even one with war fighting experience, was thrashed in a few short days by US high tech fire power. Thousands of dead Iraqis and the USA suffered, like, maybe 28 casualties.
China set off on a massive modernization after the Desert Storm. It realized it had to stop the USA before it even reached Chinese's shores and its airspace. |
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Plain Meaning
Joined: 18 Oct 2014
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Still reading ... 300 pages to go. |
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Swartz
Joined: 19 Dec 2014
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Plain Meaning wrote: |
| Still reading ... 300 pages to go. |
Put it on your Faceberg, for that distant cousin who occasionally pretends to care about what you're doing. |
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Plain Meaning
Joined: 18 Oct 2014
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Swartz wrote: |
| Plain Meaning wrote: |
| Still reading ... 300 pages to go. |
Put it on your Faceberg, for that distant cousin who occasionally pretends to care about what you're doing. |
This is not your box. Bad. Go defecate in your box. Bad dog. |
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Swartz
Joined: 19 Dec 2014
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Plain Meaning wrote: |
| Swartz wrote: |
| Plain Meaning wrote: |
| Still reading ... 300 pages to go. |
Put it on your Faceberg, for that distant cousin who occasionally pretends to care about what you're doing. |
This is not your box. Bad. Go defecate in your box. Bad dog. |
You're a weirdo. A very sad, middle aged weirdo. And that's the worst kind. |
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trueblue
Joined: 15 Jun 2014
Location: In between the lines
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 1:19 am Post subject: |
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| Swartz wrote: |
| Plain Meaning wrote: |
| Swartz wrote: |
| Plain Meaning wrote: |
| Still reading ... 300 pages to go. |
Put it on your Faceberg, for that distant cousin who occasionally pretends to care about what you're doing. |
This is not your box. Bad. Go defecate in your box. Bad dog. |
You're a weirdo. A very sad, middle aged weirdo. And that's the worst kind. |
I don't know...there is Geno-Beno, who may have that title. |
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GENO123
Joined: 28 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| trueblue wrote: |
| Swartz wrote: |
| Plain Meaning wrote: |
| Swartz wrote: |
| Plain Meaning wrote: |
| Still reading ... 300 pages to go. |
Put it on your Faceberg, for that distant cousin who occasionally pretends to care about what you're doing. |
This is not your box. Bad. Go defecate in your box. Bad dog. |
You're a weirdo. A very sad, middle aged weirdo. And that's the worst kind. |
I don't know...there is Geno-Beno, who may have that title. |
You are way more threatened than you admit,
Nazi +1
Good way to describe Nazi's +1 aka Trueblue.
| Quote: |
But now you have fallen in with Swartz on his reductive and identitarian obsession with what race and ethnicity or religion people might marry. I would say that is further demonstration of your Nazi leanings. |
Would you like to meet up sometime Nazi +1 . |
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trueblue
Joined: 15 Jun 2014
Location: In between the lines
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| GENO123 wrote: |
| trueblue wrote: |
| Swartz wrote: |
| Plain Meaning wrote: |
| Swartz wrote: |
| Plain Meaning wrote: |
| Still reading ... 300 pages to go. |
Put it on your Faceberg, for that distant cousin who occasionally pretends to care about what you're doing. |
This is not your box. Bad. Go defecate in your box. Bad dog. |
You're a weirdo. A very sad, middle aged weirdo. And that's the worst kind. |
I don't know...there is Geno-Beno, who may have that title. |
You are way more threatened than you admit,
Nazi +1
Good way to describe Nazi's +1 aka Trueblue.
| Quote: |
But now you have fallen in with Swartz on his reductive and identitarian obsession with what race and ethnicity or religion people might marry. I would say that is further demonstration of your Nazi leanings. |
Would you like to meet up sometime Nazi +1 . |
Are you asking me out on a date? |
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