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coolsage
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: The overcast afternoon of the soul
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 Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 6:39 am Post subject: |
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| Napoleon 8 (whatever happened to 1 through 7?). Yes, I read that piece, and it was clear that even 2500 years ago, Confucious was looking backward to a mythical 'golden age' in China which never actually existed. Not so different from Plato and Atlantis. The point is, Confucianism has no place in the twenty-first century. The age of top-down, hierarchical societies is over. It's the age of egalitarianism. This hooey in Korea about someone who is two years older (or younger) than you can't be a friend but only a 'senior' or 'junior' has to go. It's holding these people back, sometimes destructively so, as in the co-pilot in the Korean Air flight a couple of years back who could not contradict his pilot, even though he knew they were flying headlong into a mountain, killing all aboard. Even the Chinese have jettisoned Confucious. He never really caught on anywhere else. Now it's Korea's turn. Lose him or lose the edge. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 7:02 am Post subject: |
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"Confusion-ism" is exactly that.
Its the reason it took an hour for my bank to perform a simple transaction today- nobody was prepared to take the responsibility for giving me a small international money order because I didn't have my passport with me (I thought my alien card would be enough for the meagre sum I was dealing with). They had to call their superior, and him his superior, and so on. No flexibility, no thinking outside the box, no risking contradicting your superior,etc. But ultimately, not wanting to dissapoint the "foreign visitor".
the whole performance was an exercise in Confucianism. Amazing how people are influenced and behave, wittingly or no, by the ideals inherited from thousands of years ago. Incredible. And interesting, in a way. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 8:58 am Post subject: |
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Coolsage mentioned:
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| the co-pilot in the Korean Air flight a couple of years back who could not contradict his pilot, even though he knew they were flying headlong into a mountain, killing all aboard. |
How do you know what was going through the co-pilot's mind if everyone on board the plane was killed?
Last edited by On the other hand on Fri Jun 11, 2004 10:21 am; edited 1 time in total |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 9:11 am Post subject: |
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Rapier wrote:
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| Its the reason it took an hour for my bank to perform a simple transaction today- nobody was prepared to take the responsibility for giving me a small international money order because I didn't have my passport with me (I thought my alien card would be enough for the meagre sum I was dealing with). They had to call their superior, and him his superior, and so on. No flexibility, no thinking outside the box, no risking contradicting your superior,etc. But ultimately, not wanting to dissapoint the "foreign visitor". |
Is Confucianism really the culprit here? If there had turned out to be something amiss about the transaction, the employee who bent the rules without permission would've been the one to take the heat. Banks are not lemonade stands; they've got very strict regulations which the employees are obligated to follow to the letter. I've had banks back home refuse to cash a paycheque because I didn't have proper ID. And they didn't even bother calling their superiors to get the rules bent.
I'm not pro-Confucian by any stretch. Had I the opportunity to create my own utopia, it would have far more in common with the west than with Asia. It's just that some people on this board seem to use Confucianism as a catch-all scapegoat for every inconvenience they encounter in Korea. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 9:32 am Post subject: |
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Rapier wrote:
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| the whole performance was an exercise in Confucianism. Amazing how people are influenced and behave, wittingly or no, by the ideals inherited from thousands of years ago. |
But you are, if I'm not mistaken, the guy who attributes western tolerance and democracy to the influence of Jesus Christ. |
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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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| Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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Ha Ha! I love it. Well done, OP. Well done. You did nothing wrong. This guy came after you. You defended yourself. All he lost was a little pride...which he could have saved had he behaved himself.
"Confucionism doesn't work!" Those sound like the words of an old man lying on the sidewalk under a pile of plastic chairs. "He was supposed to cower and grovel before me! Why was this not so?" |
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Barking Mad Lord Snapcase
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
| I'm not pro-Confucian by any stretch. Had I the opportunity to create my own utopia, it would have far more in common with the west than with Asia. It's just that some people on this board seem to use Confucianism as a catch-all scapegoat for every inconvenience they encounter in Korea. |
They may not be right all of the time, but I suspect that they would be right most of the time. The combination of Confucian hierarchy and (once justified) distrust of the outside world has moulded Korean culture to the extent that it is still in the early stages of shaking off the yoke of tradition.
Have you ever accused a left-leaning Westerner of being a socialist, or a right-leaning Westerner of being a fascist? The prevailing argument on this thread is certainly no worse. |
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Barking Mad Lord Snapcase
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
Rapier wrote:
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| the whole performance was an exercise in Confucianism. Amazing how people are influenced and behave, wittingly or no, by the ideals inherited from thousands of years ago. |
But you are, if I'm not mistaken, the guy who attributes western tolerance and democracy to the influence of Jesus Christ. |
He may be half right. Some Christians put "Love thy neighbour" above all else. Others (historically, far too many) eschew this for their own favourite messages (six day creation, "eye for an eye" etc). |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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Have you ever accused a left-leaning Westerner of being a socialist, or a right-leaning Westerner of being a fascist? The prevailing argument on this thread is certainly no worse.
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Well, I try to keep hyperbole out of political discussion, unless the person I'm arguing with really does seem like a socialist or a fascist. And Rapier's story basically involved a simple case of rules being enforced, something that should happen in any advanced nation. If a Korean were to blame every problem he had in the west, incluing problems that he would likely encounter in any culture, on liberal individulalism, I would tell him that his perspective is too narrow. |
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Ilsanman
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Location: Bucheon, Korea
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:54 am Post subject: yes |
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| napoleon8 wrote: |
| jazblanc77 wrote: |
| I'm severely CONFUSED about the meaning of this thread's title. |
It would have helped the author's ethos to spell the word correctly--Confucianism--but the claim is wrong anyway; Confucianism does work. It can if applied properly. Koreans centuries ago embedded the system so deeply into their culture that they neglected other non-scholarly aspects of civilization, such as the <a href="http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?q=military&v=56">military</a>. This hurt them when it came to the Japs invading the peninsula with Portuguese muskets. The Koreans stood no chance. This, however, should not be taken as indicative of Confucian thought, in and of itself.
For a Western and scholarly work arguing that the basic ethics of Confucianism can and should be incorporated into society, including Western society, please see:
Confucius Today |
Haha I was wondering when someone would notice my intentional spelling 'error'. It is a joke between a friend and I about how confuscianism (sp?) is confusing, or at least, it seems to lack logic and reason in some, if not many situations.
Then again, so does this whole country sometimes. This was illustrated by the poster talking about the bank. Eastern business practices are different than the west. |
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Blind Willie
Joined: 05 May 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 7:06 am Post subject: Re: yes |
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| Ilsanman wrote: |
| Eastern business practices are different than the west. |
OH MY GOD!
Are you telling me that they're different places?!?!
Will wonders never cease? |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 7:29 am Post subject: |
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Then again, so does this whole country sometimes. This was illustrated by the poster talking about the bank. Eastern business practices are different than the west.
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I hate to sound like a broken record here, but how exactly does Rapier's story prove that eastern business practices are unique? He walked into a bank and tried to conduct a transaction without the proper identification. I repeat: Without. The. Proper. Identification. The bank employees were reluctant to process his request, but consulted their superiors(not their seniors, their superiors) for permission to do so. I can't for the life of me see how this simple adherence to the rules has anything to do with Confucianism.
As I see it, the problem with Confucianism is not that it encourages people to follow rules, but that it encourages them to BREAK rules in deference to age or social connections. The building inspector says to himself: "well, this new mall isn't quite up to the safety standards, but the contractor was my senior at univeristy, so I'd better cut him some slack and hope like hell that the building doesn't collapse one day". But I don't see anything like that happening in Rapier's story. The bank employees were making every effort to follow the procedure. |
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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 8:55 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
Coolsage mentioned:
| Quote: |
| the co-pilot in the Korean Air flight a couple of years back who could not contradict his pilot, even though he knew they were flying headlong into a mountain, killing all aboard. |
How do you know what was going through the co-pilot's mind if everyone on board the plane was killed? |
Possibly from voice recorders retrieved after the crash. Why are you so quick to doubt this account?
Michael Breen, on pages 167-168 of his book, "The Koreans", writes:
"Two air crashes in Korea in recent years are alleged to have occurred through a subordinate's unwillingness to correct a pilot. In July 1993, sixty-six people were killed when an Asiana 737-500 crashed into a mountain after the pilot made three 'reckless' attempts to land in bad weather. An official noted obscurely that the pilot 'appeared to have received no help from the co-pilot, Park Taehwan, who was inexperienced.' In June, 1991, the pilot of a Korea Air (sic) Boeing 727 landed at Taegu Airport without realising that his undercarriage wasn't down. The three members of the cokpit crew were jailed for several months for 'ignoring the manuals'. Somehow, all three misinterpreted warning noises. The point here is not that the co-pilots knew the plane would crash and kept quiet, but that the environment was such that one does not second-guess a pilot.
It is possible that this timidity by co-pilots may not reature when the pilot is a foreigner. A crash occurred at Cheju International Airport in August 1994, when a Korean co-pilot disagreed with his Canadian pilot and overreacted. The pilot was coming in too fast and was landing his Korean Air Airbus 300 too far along the runway. The crash happened when the Korean co-pilot tried to lift the plane up again. The plane skidded off the runway and burst into flames. Fortunately, all 160 on board were safely evacuated. The Cockpit Voice Recorder captured the final seconds (Time: 11.21 a.m.):
-21.22 Co-pilot: Go around
-21.26 Pilot: Get your ha-- Get off, get off. Tell me what it is.
-21.33 Pilot: Get off
-21.34 Co-pilot: Go around?
-21.35 Pilot: No, no
-21.43 Co-pilot: Reverse
-21.46 Co-pilot: Brake
-21.55 Pilot: What are you doing? Don't ... What man ... You're gonna kill us.
-22.07 Pilot: Hold yoke
-22.08 (Sound of crash) |
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Barking Mad Lord Snapcase
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 10:00 pm Post subject: Re: yes |
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| napoleon8 wrote: |
For a Western and scholarly work arguing that the basic ethics of Confucianism can and should be incorporated into society, including Western society, please see:
Confucius Today |
"Characteristically, modern liberals aspire to base social order on equal rights and obligations of each individual with respect to society at large. The prime embodiment of involuntary duties to particular persons, the family, they would prefer to treat as a private sentimental or contractual arrangement among its members. They lack respect for the authority of tradition because they are uneasy with wisdom that can not be articulated and tested. Since they view satisfaction of actual preferences as the political good, they are reluctant to admit that preferences can be cultivated and that the cultivated few have a special role in government."
Good God, Napoleon, you and this guy are winning the argument for us. I'd like to thank you for providing the link to the best argument in favour of Western democracy, hedonism, empirical thinking and free cultural expression I have ever read. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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Sheeshk! All this over some drunk guy mouthing off in front of a 7-11.
What next? They will be saying Democracy doesn't work and use GWB as their reasoning.  |
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